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France considering ban on burqas, spokesman says

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posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by tempest501
 


I've been around abused people too. Most refused help until it was almost too late. For some, it was too late. You can't save people from their own stupidity and misfortune until they are ready to take the first step.

To me, the best way to 'break' islam would be to let it run its course. There's bound to be some smarter muslim women in France who wonder why they are wearing burqas, when the other women don't.

Influence is a two-way street... some of the French way of life will dilute their hard-line view of islam. The whole world is a melting pot. It's all a territorial pissing contest trying to worry about national borders these days. Sabre rattling by arse-hole warlords doesn't matter, it's all for show. As long as people have basic rights, then they're still 'free' enough. Banning the burqa in France, or other similar Western countries is a massive loss of rights. It means that my heavy metal tshirts will be next and there's no way that I'm going to stop wearing those.

Anyway, have at it, people. I'm going to bed and I'm not wearing anything. Try and legislate that right away from me!




posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


Maybe the uk is not far behind france with this idea, afterall hoodies are banned in some parts and you can find yourself in hot water for wearing some t shirts....

www.roadrunnerrecords.com...

So in some respects i see where your coming from but it is for different reasons i believe.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


I dont think abused people are stupid. I think that they were just vunerable people and that how they can sometime get into those situations.

Back on topic though, I dont think they should ban it either. Like i said I think thats a case of two wrongs dont make a right etc.

I do believe though that all people should respect the nation they live in. So really if someone even has the slightest incline that wearing something of a foreign culture could offend then they should not,if there husband/them are not happy with this they should stay in there native lands where this is the norm.

Just as in the same light if me and my partner were to move to an islamic state we would do our best to adhere to the customs of that country while out and about.

You sometimes i think alot of this is because people feel uneasy because this particular religeon seem like they want to take over the world at times. Or at least some people perceive it this way.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:01 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 



Banning the burqa in France, or other similar Western countries is a massive loss of rights. It means that my heavy metal tshirts will be next and there's no way that I'm going to stop wearing those.


Your heavy metal tshirts are personal expression, are they not? This shaming and massive control and suppression of women, is not on the same platform. This is about banning an abusive, crime against humanity, and upholding the human rights. Those same rights that would prevent women from being so massively suppressed with the symbol of a shroud, entrench you rights to wear a heavy metal tshirt!
In Iran, men are not permitted to wear stylish western clothing and sport attractive modern metal hairdoes either. I read news clips last June of them closing down stores and giving out fines and warnings to women and men who were disobeying their laws in time for summer. Hair dresser shops as well were busted that dared to allow a man the choice of a hairstyle. The shroud they are wearing is a symbol of oppression, not freedom.

I do what I could to remove the Burka's and equally make noise to allow you the freedom to wear your tshirts under the same expression of freedom, individuality and equality.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by mystiq]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:17 AM
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Yeah - I don't think men really benefit from women wearing burqas either! I love seeing beautiful women on the street, it is one of the pleasures of going out!

These hardcore idiots in those countries take away everyone's happiness. They're so stuffy.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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One thing that occurs to me is that the burqa affords certain muslim women a measure of freedom.

Imagine for a moment that France went ahead and banned it. It is feasible that some muslim husbands or fathers would prefer to keep their wives and daughters at home than allow them to go out without it.

Also, imagine the feelings of a woman who had worn one for all of her adult life and suddenly found that she was required, by law, to go out in public without it. How would any of us feel if an item of clothing we felt protected our modesty was suddenly banned?

I don't like burqas and probably would prefer not to see them, but so long as on-one is trying to dictate my mode of dress I will continue to tolerate the dress of others.

Sad as it may seem to Westerners, I really think that some muslim women feel safer for being covered. They may attract the hostility of some people outside of their own culture, but within their own society they will be respected for wearing it. Or, at the very least, not ostracized for not wearing it.

This issue is very divisive and we've all read silly stories in the newspapers about muslim girls applying for jobs and then claiming discrimination when they are told they can't wear a particular item of clothing to work. So - common sense is needed on both sides but I don't think passing laws to ban clothing is the right approach.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 09:25 AM
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My fear is for Muslims to become the Jews of World War 3 in Europe ... that would really suck ...



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by berenike
One thing that occurs to me is that the burqa affords certain muslim women a measure of freedom.

Imagine for a moment that France went ahead and banned it. It is feasible that some muslim husbands or fathers would prefer to keep their wives and daughters at home than allow them to go out without it.




This only emphasizes their home situation with the women as suppressed subject..These are the things we do not want in our community that is why an integration program or assimilation contract is needed...The women should feel French or Dutch or at least as a guest in our countries and this clothing is not a good thing to start with..And yes i think it looks scary and i dont want my kids to grow up in an environment with these clothing "habits"...
The whole burqa eating spaghetti video must have shown you all how ridicule and absurd this thing really is.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by Foppezao
 


I don't completely disagree with you, but feel that targetting the women is the wrong approach.

Far better to target the men and make it known to them that their behaviour and attitudes are unacceptable by the standards of the host country.

I think it's asking a bit too much to expect the women to just change their apparel given the communities they live in.

Having said that, it's not beyond muslim women to use the burqa for their own ends. They're not all down-trodden and some are quite capable of using it as a weapon.

Feminism had a bit of a rough ride at first in Europe and America. And is a quite recent phenomenon. Give the muslim women time to catch up and find their own ways to solve the problem, if they see it as a problem. Maybe some don't.

If a Western woman wanted to object to male oppression I doubt she would walk down the street with her top off. Or go into a room full of men and disrobe.

Why? Well, she might not want to expose herself to the stares of strange men. She might think that her husband would object. Possibly it would embarrass her children or her mother would call her a hussy.

Don't let's forget there are still double standards at play in Western societies. There are still strong words for women who dress in skimpy clothes or are seen to be too sexually liberated.


[edit on 20-6-2009 by berenike]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard
I actually think it's a good idea.

Not for any religious reasons but as a way of stopping men from disguising themselves as women. It's happened many times before and i think in some ways France are doing a better job at sorting things out than the UK.

We in the Uk are far too PC...


and not to mention bigots who want to treat women like garbage

forcing them to wear it is just plain wrong

if they wanna wear it let them, but forcing? forced religion = evil



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


Allowing them to do it is forcing them, because they can't chose freely, and still be with their children and family, and be free from violence, and not chose to wear it. Savvy? Nor is their wearing this anything but a message of hatred against women to be in every bodies face. It is a crime and I am not going to tolerate it. This darkness ends now.

The women in my family have been paying attention to this Enki/Enlil et renegade suppression of women for decades, though my terminology for it is new. This isn't a new thing, womens groups, anyone who has a clue of what equality means, has been signing petitions and trying to end this suppression of women for years, only to discover that the US/UK idea of things is to wage war for oil and to make a fortune off it as usual (because they are the renegade toadies!). No, we wanted them to be freed. A police action. The UN acts with muscles and declares that a crime against humanity. All the women and children and good men moved to safety (who cares about the cost, let the wealthy pay for it! dont believe in a monetary system to begin with) and fight only the hard core haters of humanity. Savvy? For years, groups of women have sat around discussing just this.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by mystiq]



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by berenikeI think it's asking a bit too much to expect the women to just change their apparel given the communities they live in.


Most of those burqa wearing women were brought over as brides simply BECAUSE they are ignorant and from third world countries and could be easily controlled. Some may have been born in France but that is far less likely.

They have NOT being doing this in Paris for the last 30 years, certainly not in such numbers.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 01:19 PM
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There have always been minimal dress requirement, there should be maximum dress restrictions. Banning the burqa is a very good idea, and I hope all western nations follow suit. While there might be a small percentage of women who like the burqa, the vast majority women forced to wear these things hate them, especially in hot weather.

Wide spread wearing of burqas also allows people to walk around in disguise. If you walk around in public, you should at least have to show your face.

The Burqa is a symbol of sexual oppression and abuse. When people see a woman in a burqa, they should look for her husband and stare at him, let him know he is not liked, and that his ways of oppressing women will not be tolerated. If a man is caught imprisoning his woman in their house, he should be put in prison for a very long time. If he should get out, he should be well informed that should he try to contact his former spouse, or other members if his family that he abused, then he will go back to jail again for a very long time.

Western nations need to adopt a whole bunch of special laws to deal with the horrible practices of the Muslim religion in its oppression of women. The law and the schools should also be set up to react quickly when young girls come to them for protection.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 02:06 PM
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Different Cultures (even WESTERN cultures -- shocking but true!) have the RIGHT to maintain their OWN standards.
reply to post by Sonya610
 


There is a tremendous variation in acceptable dress in the various muslim countries. I spent over a year in West Africa and in the muslim countries I was in I rarely saw a burka worn by anyone but visiting Arabs from the north. Burkas were not the style and they would have been rediculously uncomfortable in the stifling heat of midday.

The hair was often wrapped but faces were rarely covered in any way. Full dresses (Panyas) worn tightly esp. by the young and breasts were variably covered but often not with suckling young.



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by mystiq
Allowing them to do it is forcing them, because they can't chose freely, and still be with their children and family, and be free from violence, and not chose to wear it.

That's your opinion, mystiq. Remember that these women live in France and they have lots of legal options to take if they feel oppressed or abused by their husbands. There's also an option called divorce.



Nor is their wearing this anything but a message of hatred against women to be in every bodies face. It is a crime and I am not going to tolerate it. This darkness ends now.

So what are you going to do about it? Force them not wear a burqa because you don't like it?

mystiq, take your crusade to the Middle East, where perhaps there are more women forced to wear a burqa. Otherwise, your storm-in-a-tea-cup against the 'free' women in France, who 'freely' choose to wear their burqas, is unwarranted.

You allow me to wear a heavy metal tshirt with offensive graphics, but you ban the women for wearing burqas. That's a contradiction. Maybe there's a job in the fashion police academy for you?

[edit on 20-6-2009 by tezzajw]



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 03:39 AM
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I think there is a better solution than banning Burqas. In the interest of public safety, some communities have already enacted legislation to ban any attire which hides the face, so it would prohibit not only burqas, but also masks which hide the face, etc, from being worn in public. (Masks worn at a private party like Halloween wouldn't be a violation). This solution does not have the religious bias that specifically banning Burqas does. (Although considering the number of Muslim women who don't wear Burqas, I think one could legitimately raise the question as to whether this attire is really a religious requirement).

I think a good argument in this thread is "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". When I visit another country, I do my best to learn about its customs and cultural norms and do as they do so as not to offend the people there. If I were to visit a Muslim country they would have every right to expect me and my family to be sensitive to their culture, and we would honor the Muslims by doing just that. The lack of equity seems to arise when this cultural sensitivity is not reciprocal, that is when a Muslim comes to another country, shouldn't they also be expected to show some cultural sensitivity to the country they are in?

And no I don't see any ban on hiding your face as a slippery slope leading to banning somebody's T-shirt.

In summary, for public safety reasons, I am in support of having people show their faces in public. I would rather see a general ban on anything that masks the face, rather than anything specifically directed at Burqas. I don't know if France has considered this angle, but if they haven't, maybe they should.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur
And no I don't see any ban on hiding your face as a slippery slope leading to banning somebody's T-shirt.

Banning one item of clothing is no different to banning another.



In summary, for public safety reasons, I am in support of having people show their faces in public.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think that it's disgraceful. If someone doesn't want to show their face, then they shouldn't have to!

All that your opinion shows is that you live with a culture of fear. You're expecting that everyone will be guilty and you want to be able to trace everyone by CCTV cameras over every inch of public land.

It's not a free world any longer. With opinions like your's, it will never be a free world.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
When a country thinks about legislating against an article of clothing, then you know that things are really screwed. Especially, when that country is supposed to represent the ideals of a 'free' Western society.


You know that has to be one of the stupidest statements I've ever seen on ATS, in a "free Western society" we don't force our women to cover their entire body and face, in fact most men encourage the opposite...

Now that I've addressed the stupidity of the troll, come on, really is their anyone out their that truly believes people wear these by choice? Ok I'll entertain the idea just for the sake of the argument. Their wearing them because the want too
They still should be outlawed.
I'm not allowed to wear my motorbike helmet in a shopping center, bank, casino ect, but if I really want to get in there without showing my face I can just dress as a muslim women and walk straight in. Heaps of room in there to hide my guns too. Anyone got any idea how much C4 you could carry under those things unnoticed? I'd guess quite a bit.

Honestly, the only people wearing these things are the extremists.

Ok, religious freaks and trolls alike feel free to flame away...



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by SG-1-9er
You know that has to be one of the stupidest statements I've ever seen on ATS, in a "free Western society" we don't force our women to cover their entire body and face, in fact most men encourage the opposite...

Yeah, I've quoted lots of people making stupid statements before. In fact I've got the feeling that I just did it again.

These adult women live in France. There is no law forcing them to wear the burqas. They have the option not to wear it, if they so choose.



Now that I've addressed the stupidity of the troll, come on, really is their anyone out their that truly believes people wear these by choice?

Yes. There is no law in France requiring them to wear a burqa, so they must be choosing to wear them.

They are consenting adults, who are choosing to wear them. If they don't want to wear them, then they have the right to choose not to.

You can make believe all you like that the women are forced to wear them - in France - but, you're wrong.



posted on Jun, 21 2009 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by tezzajw
You can make believe all you like that the women are forced to wear them - in France - but, you're wrong.


Actually no, I'm not wrong. YOU can choice to close your eyes to whats really going on but that don't mean I'm going to. But, your right they do have a choice, that choice is wear what your told or get the life beaten out of you. What would you choose?


Originally posted by tezzajw
These adult women live in France.


A.
I don't give a dam where they live, it doesn't change the facts, if they don't do what there told they'll be beaten.

B.
Their not all adults, I'm not sure if your aware of this (since you don't seem to bright) but muslim's are born as baby's as well just like we were. They don't just fall out of the sky, full grown adults.


I think maybe you should read the Qur’an you clearly have no understanding of this "religion" and how it treats women or you would not say that they choose to do anything, they don't. They simply do what there told.



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