Nasa prepares to bomb the moon, page 18
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reply posted on 21-6-2009 @ 07:05 PM by zorgon
Originally posted by Shadowflux
Neat, where did you hear about this lake?


I knew I should have added the link again

www.defenselink.mil...

Q: That translates to what in volume?

A: We were very conservative in the press release, but if you take basically 100 square kilometers by roughly 50 feet, you get a volume of something like a quarter of a cubic mile, I think it's on that order. It's a considerable amount, but it's not a huge glacier or anything like that.

Q: Can you compare that with something you know?

A: It's a lake. A small lake.



reply posted on 21-6-2009 @ 07:20 PM by BlasteR
I've always wondered about water. How did water arrive on earth? Has it always been there?

And then we have comets.
These are icy bodies that occasionally careen into the inner solar solar system from a massive area of space around the sun called the oort cloud.. But this is an enigma.

Where did such a massive amount of liquid water come from to create these objects? How did these comets form? All of that ice just seems to be lingering out in space for no good reason. But there must be some kind of explanation that makes sense.

Now, I can understand the possibility of comets raining down on the planets of our solar system and delivering water like a milkman would deliver milk. But these would also be massively destructive events as we saw when comet Shoemaker-Levy9 slammed into Jupiter a decade ago. And that was even after it was fragmented by Jupiter's gravity.

I can also understand how comets would probably have been more numerous around the time the solar system was formed. Hence, there would have been many more smaller-sized comets capable of hitting earth without destroying it which would have also brought water to our planets (and other planets). But where did all that water really come from? Was it part of the body that would later become our sun? Has our solar system simply ensnared the leftovers of ancient planetary "debris" with it's gravity over time? Alot of important questions to consider. But the important thing to remember is.. Nobody knows.

I guess, personally, I'm just not convinced about comets bringing water to the planets. Whatever created the water that ended up forming comets out in the oort cloud could just as easily be responsible for putting water on earth and the other planets. And since we don't know how that all happened, we don't know what possibilities are out there which might also explain how water got here on earth.

-ChriS


reply posted on 21-6-2009 @ 07:42 PM by Mintwithahole.
Originally posted by zorgon
Correct Shackleton Crater where the DoD reports says they found the 100 sq kilometer, 50 foot deep lake (their words not mine)

PS Saying 'second line' irritates the mods. Your one line is a valid post

SEE HERE






[edit on 21-6-2009 by zorgon]


So they've found this massive frozen lake on the moon. . . Well please explain why NASA want to blow the bejesus out of it when this frozen water would be usable for future astronauts stationed on the moon? It just doesn't make any sense. The best NASA can do the day after they blow it up is say, There's water on the moon! Well, there was water on the moon, but we've just blown it all into space and possibly contaminated whats left!


reply posted on 21-6-2009 @ 08:18 PM by jra
I don't really understand what all the fuss is about in this thread. Objects slam into the Moon all the time and at much greater velocities than what this Centaur rocket stage will. And this is not the first time a rocket stage has hit the Moon. The S-IVB stage from Apollo's 13 - 17 have all slammed into the Moon at ~2.5km/s and the S-IVB is a fair bit bigger and heavier than the Centaur as well. Nothing bad happened to the Moon when they impacted. So there's really no need to worry about this at all. And as reugen put it, "...this impact will be comparable to a mosquito colliding with an elephants ass." is a colourful, but good illustration of the overall effect that this will have on the Moon.

It's really unfortunate to see so much over reaction due to an over-sensationalized headline (not the OP fault).


reply posted on 21-6-2009 @ 08:28 PM by DangerDeath
Originally posted by BlasteR
I've always wondered about water. How did water arrive on earth? Has it always been there?

And then we have comets.
These are icy bodies that occasionally careen into the inner solar solar system from a massive area of space around the sun called the oort cloud.. But this is an enigma.

Where did such a massive amount of liquid water come from to create these objects? How did these comets form? All of that ice just seems to be lingering out in space for no good reason. But there must be some kind of explanation that makes sense.

Now, I can understand the possibility of comets raining down on the planets of our solar system and delivering water like a milkman would deliver milk. But these would also be massively destructive events as we saw when comet Shoemaker-Levy9 slammed into Jupiter a decade ago. And that was even after it was fragmented by Jupiter's gravity.

I can also understand how comets would probably have been more numerous around the time the solar system was formed. Hence, there would have been many more smaller-sized comets capable of hitting earth without destroying it which would have also brought water to our planets (and other planets). But where did all that water really come from? Was it part of the body that would later become our sun? Has our solar system simply ensnared the leftovers of ancient planetary "debris" with it's gravity over time? Alot of important questions to consider. But the important thing to remember is.. Nobody knows.

I guess, personally, I'm just not convinced about comets bringing water to the planets. Whatever created the water that ended up forming comets out in the oort cloud could just as easily be responsible for putting water on earth and the other planets. And since we don't know how that all happened, we don't know what possibilities are out there which might also explain how water got here on earth.

-ChriS


You are very much inspiring.

I have several hypothesis:

Inside the Sun is water and ice (cold fusion). High temperature is in Sun's corona (why?)

Sun spots show us that inside Sun is "black".
(I'm sure there is scientific explanation for this, but I'm not convinced
)

Another one:

Earth stole water from Moon. Ever since Moon is trying to retrieve its water, but cannot. Creating tides and affecting reproductive cycles of females is all it can do. Now, NASA is trying to find water on the Moon, but I'm afraid we took it all long time ago.

Mars was hit by a water planet (like Europa, Jupiter's moon, for instance). If you look at Mars you will see that one big part of it seems to be "washed" with a giant splash. The remains of that water planet are now comets. This splash also removed atmosphere and other things from Mars.

One thing is for sure: there is no water in gravitational wells.



[edit on 21-6-2009 by DangerDeath]


reply posted on 21-6-2009 @ 08:31 PM by DangerDeath
Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Originally posted by zorgon
Correct Shackleton Crater where the DoD reports says they found the 100 sq kilometer, 50 foot deep lake (their words not mine)

PS Saying 'second line' irritates the mods. Your one line is a valid post

SEE HERE






[edit on 21-6-2009 by zorgon]


So they've found this massive frozen lake on the moon. . . Well please explain why NASA want to blow the bejesus out of it when this frozen water would be usable for future astronauts stationed on the moon? It just doesn't make any sense. The best NASA can do the day after they blow it up is say, There's water on the moon! Well, there was water on the moon, but we've just blown it all into space and possibly contaminated whats left!



Frozen water during night on the moon, and during day it evaporates and again at night falls back exactly on the same spot...


reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 12:17 AM by weedwhacker
reply to post by Shadowflux


The Moon doesn't rotate, not like the Earth does,


Care to re-examine that statement??

(Well...you are correct in saying the Moon doesn't rotate like the Earth...because the Moon doesn't rotate once every 24 hours...)

However:

en.wikipedia.org...
Sidereal rotation period 27.321 582 d (synchronous)

Equatorial rotation velocity 4.627 m/s




reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 12:21 AM by weedwhacker
reply to post by space cadet


Don't you remember that horrible TV show from the 1970s, "Moon:1999" ?

Starred Barbara Bain and Martain Landau (after they'd left "Mission: Impossible"

It was horrid....Moon flies off all alone, the 'colonists' stranded....

Nobody ever talked about the consequences to Earth, though. It was all about them, them, them!


reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 12:27 AM by Shadowflux
reply to post by weedwhacker


The Moon doesn't rotate on an axis like the Earth does, our rotation is what gives us our day and night. If you happen to ever look at the Moon you will see that it always looks the same, you always see the same side, the same regions that make up the face of the "Man in the Moon".

Remember, I did state that the angle of the sun relative to the Moon does vary by a small amount.

This is why there are areas of "eternal darkness" so to speak, these are basically shadows created by crater walls that happen to sit in just the right spot as to never (or rarely) receive sunlight.

Of course, I'm no scientist.


reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 03:07 AM by BlasteR
Originally posted by DangerDeath
Inside the Sun is water and ice (cold fusion). High temperature is in Sun's corona (why?)

Sun spots show us that inside Sun is "black".
(I'm sure there is scientific explanation for this, but I'm not convinced
)

Another one:

Earth stole water from Moon. Ever since Moon is trying to retrieve its water, but cannot. Creating tides and affecting reproductive cycles of females is all it can do. Now, NASA is trying to find water on the Moon, but I'm afraid we took it all long time ago.

Mars was hit by a water planet (like Europa, Jupiter's moon, for instance). If you look at Mars you will see that one big part of it seems to be "washed" with a giant splash. The remains of that water planet are now comets. This splash also removed atmosphere and other things from Mars.
[edit on 21-6-2009 by DangerDeath]


I think you are thinking with the right frame of reference at attempting to answering this question. Even if it is with some wrong and questionable information.. But your methodology still lacks to confront the real question I have.

Let me just say this.

Even if some extremely ancient water-rich planet impacted mars, which we don't have any evidence of, where did that water come from?

And even if the sun had water within it (which it doesn't) where did that water come from?

And even if the moon did have water an extremely long time ago and the earth "stole" the water from the moon.. Where did the moon's water really originate from?

Your theories attempt to explain how water got onto the planets of our solar system. They don't attempt to explain where the water really originated from before that.

This is what I'm talking about. It doesn't make sense.

Are objects like the kuiper belt and Oort cloud common throughout the galaxy and/or the universe? And if they are, where did all the water really come from? Can water be "created" as a part of the normal processes' the make up the formation of any planetary system? And if so, how in the heck is that possible?

Also, If comet impacts are responsible for all the water we see today how many comets would have had to impact earth in order to create all the water on our planet? After so many comet impacts, wouldn't our planet have been completely sterilized for millions/billions of years? The theory would have to involve many comets impacting earth over millions and millions of years. But would comets really have been that numerous in the early solar system? And Where did the water in those comets all come from before that?

One possible answer is in how the moon was formed.
The most widely-accepted theory is that the moon was formed when molten material was dispersed when a mars-sized object impacted earth billions of years ago. The molten material forms into a ball through the process of gravitational accretion.

This is the big accepted theory out there in mainstream science today. But it fails to answer some very basic questions.

For starters, radiometric dating of some moon rock samples retrived during the apollo missions all date the moon almost a billion years older than anything found on earth. This completely contradicts the widely-accepted theory. I have my own theory about how the moon was formed. I talked about this at length in THIS post.. Which was posted in Zorgon's thread "Gravity on the Moon..."

From that post (since it directly applies here)..
Most scientists currently belive the earth is around 3.8 billion years old.. Mainly, we get this date from radiometric dating of rocks (sometimes called radiocactive dating). All based on the never-changing decay rates of radioactive isotopes.

It now appears that MOST of the moon rocks retrieved during the apollo missions are, indeed, around 4.5 billion years old. Wikipedia sais some of basaltic type samples retrived from the lunar Maria have been dated to around 3.16 billion years.


This doesn't mean that the moon wasn't initially part of an earth "twin". One of the unresolved issues of this theory deals with the fact that there isn't alot of evidence suggesting the earth ever had a "magma ocean" which it undoubtedly would have had after such a violent collision. Everything points to a collision of some magnitude creating the moon as the geology all suggests the moon was once completely molten. But that doesn't necessarily mean it had to be with earth. Scientists have dubbed this mars-sized impactor "Theia" and I think only reason they think it was "mars-sized" is because all the calculations and computer models best suggest a body of this size would have been needed to expel enough material to accrete and form a moon of this size.

But if rogue planets were just flying around hitting other planets, how many planets were really out there prior to all these collisions? How many collisions really took place? It's quite feasible that "Theia" actually collided with an earth-sized planet with an orbit close to 1 AU (but not exactly). The compositions of earth and its twin would have been extremely similar due to both planets forming in the same area of the proto-planetary disk of the early solar system. The collision takes place, the moon is created, but it, inevitably, gets slung out with an oblique orbital pattern until it becomes captured by earth's gravitaty field. This would explain ALOT

It would explain the moon's high angular momentum.
It would explain why the moon shows evidence of a magma ocean but not the earth.
It would explain why the composition of the moon is very close to that of earth with slight differences.
It would explain why most of the moon rock samples are almost a billion years older than earth.
(radioactive dating doesn't really lie).


Regardless of which theory is correct, we know that for billions of years our moon has acted as somewhat of an earth shield (even if only gravitationally). The extent to which it has done this can be seen through a simple pair of binoculars on a full-moon night. If the moon has acted in this fashion for comets as well, then that might explain how comets could have deposited water on the moon since it's original creation and/or capture by earth gravity.

Also, If large comets have slammed into earth in the distant past just like this "theia" object scientists believe created our moon, how much of that comet would really be deposited on earth? Some of it would've inevitably careened off into space by the force of the collision/explosion since some of the debris would have reached escape velocity of earth's gravity. And even if a few extremely large comets really did impact earth in the distant past, would that even have been enough water to account for what we see today?

The massive craters that would've been created by these ancient comet collisions with earth are supposedly all long gone now due to plate tectonics and erosion over time. And, unfortunately, there just isn't any direct scientific evidence I've ever heard of involving a comet colliding with earth. All the best evidence is long gone. Of coarse, we still have the water. But that doesn't do us much good to explain where it all came from.

-ChriS

[edit on 22-6-2009 by BlasteR]


reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 07:14 AM by weedwhacker
reply to post by Shadowflux


The Moon doesn't rotate on an axis like the Earth does, our rotation is what gives us our day and night.


I'm not picking on you, Shadow, but this misconception I see throughout ATS. The Moon does have a 'day' and a 'night' -- each lasts about two Earth weeks in duration. That is what you would experience if you were living on its surface.

I posted the links that showed the values for the Moon's rotation. Don't know how much clearer it can be!!

I'll have to use my thought visualization technique, again, since I'm not there in person to show you with props.

Imagine you are looking down at both Earth and Moon. Moon orbits Earth, I hope you don't deny that? Moon completes one orbit in approximately 28 days (it is more complicated, but I'll stay simple). IF/ the Moon did not rotate at all then as it traveled around its orbit we would see all sides! Can you see why, now?

Consider this: IF the Moon did not rotate at all, we would see no phases every month!

I just found this video, describing what I wrote above. It doesn't play well, for me, but it will link to others so you can do the research:



Now, about the LCROSS and LRO missions: The spent rocket stage will be impacted in a region near the south pole of the Moon to do more research into the water ice that has been detected there. Just like at Earth's poles, the Sun is very, very low on the Lunar horizon. Because of its orbital inclination relative to the Sun there are areas that remain free of the intense heat of direct sunlight, so water can remain frozen and not boil away. THIS is the point of this missin, to determine how much may be there. It's crucial to the planning for a future permanent base at the south pole.


reply posted on 22-6-2009 @ 10:31 AM by Trunkeight
Very important thread. I find it interesting, that the only way we can judge distance and movement of the Moon in relationship to Earth, is by the McDonald Laser Ranging Station, at Ft. Davis, Texas. Around 40 years ago, The Apollo missions to the moon (...) left a retro-active mirror on the surface, allowing precision laser pulsing from earth and back, measuring the distance between the Earth and the Moon to within an inch. THe NSF (National Science Foundation) has announced it will CUT FUNDING this year for this project! A lousy $125,000/year!
An experiment, begun when Apollo 11 astronauts Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin left a mirror on the lunar surface 40 years ago to allow Earth-based astronomers to fire lasers at it, has been ended by American science chiefs.

The National Science Foundation (NSF) last week wrote to scientists working at the McDonald Laser ranging station at Fort Davis in Texas to tell them the annual $125,000 funding for their research project was going be terminated following a review of its scientific merits.



www.guardian.co.uk...

How convenient. Nasa is about to bomb the Moon and we wil have little ability to accuately measure the effects of this sociopathic endeavor. I say Sociopathic, because even if you haveonly secondary school education, you may remember how critical the Moon is on all life on this planet, including (obviously) humanity. not to mention tides, and crustal behaviour.

Whats next? Setting of a nuke in space to test for Algae?

* Headbutts desk repeatedly*


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