Freedom for Sinners

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
I demand freedom for sinners. I demand they be allowed to sin, I demand that their sins be their own business and for all of you to stop pretending as if you know what is best for anyone else but yourself.

would you allow that man who got arrested, to watch over your child?

It is as true in morals as in physics that all force is imperishable; therefore the consequences of a human action never cease.
—Tennessee Claflin

"Freedom's just another word for noth'n left to lose"
- From "Bobby McGee" - K.K.

reply to post by miriam0566


Yes, Yes I would.

I would have no problem, whatsoever, allowing someone with that sort of taste in Manga to watch over my son.

Oh, and also, I know more about Manga than you likely ever will.

reply to post by TheColdDragon


Star and flag.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but can I ask you please to do one thing?

Leave Jesus out of this.

I believe that Jesus is our Saviour and our Lord, but I do not believe in the Bible or the church, and I think all church elders are totally corrupt. Remember the whore of Babylon? That is the Roman Catholic church, I believe.

Anyway, Jesus loves, Jesus is kind, and Jesus forgives sinners who believe in Him.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Yes, Yes I would.

I would have no problem, whatsoever, allowing someone with that sort of taste in Manga to watch over my son.

so this goes for other categories too? perhaps let a cleptomaniac or a piromaniac watch your house for the weekend?

perhaps stroll along the river with a man who has strong desires to rape men?

Oh, and also, I know more about Manga than you likely ever will.

umm, does it matter?

I wouldnt automatically correlate a person prefence to looking at those types of mangas with you sexual preference with women i mean its a comic basically and most of those comics are of 15 16 17 year olds who in no way look their age and are no way real so i dont see peoples disgust for them... its not like their actual pictures of children children that means 3-9 not some 17 year old cartoon that looks like shes 19 so everyone needs to stop trippen and the laws that make it unlawfull to have those comics are dumb thats whats wrong with todays societys no one realizes what freedom is freedom is a top edge blade not a one way street you cant make some morally different things legal and some others illegal

reply to post by miriam0566


You fail to distinguish between reality and fantasy.... using the example of a Kleptomaniac or Pyromaniac, these are people who have destructive tendencies; Depending on how well I knew them, Sure, I'd let them stay... but I'd have to know them first. I am not in the habit of asking perfect strangers to watch my stuff or kid.

Likewise, I know more about manga; and the fact that YOU don't think that matters means you are not savvy enough to participate in this conversation whereas it relates to the Manga incident.

I've known a LOT of people who were into all sorts of Manga Fetishism, and none of which whom I think are terrible human beings who are out to rape my child. And I include people who are into Lolicon as people who I know... which is exactly what the man was convicted for.

These people aren't child rapists or molesters. Yes, they may get off on the idea of these things, but I don't count people who are into Rape fantasy as potential rapists or rape-victims.

That you do not understand how the two are different means you need to leave this conversation until you come back with a better perspective or argument, because appealing to my emotions as a parent is not one.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
These people aren't child rapists or molesters. Yes, they may get off on the idea of these things, but I don't count people who are into Rape fantasy as potential rapists or rape-victims.

That you do not understand how the two are different means you need to leave this conversation until you come back with a better perspective or argument, because appealing to my emotions as a parent is not one.

no, what you fail to see is the connection between "sin" and harming others.

Leave Sinners alone. Let them sin. Let them live. this statement you made in the OP bothers me.

your point? i get it. the guy who owned the manga didnt hurt anyone by his own desire. and your saying he shouldnt be punished. do i agree? yes in a way i do. while i deplore the man having a desire for pedophilia, he did not technically hurt anyone. so we are in agreement.

what irritates me is that you blame this on christians. and you use nonsensical statements to back your argument up.

first off, i doubt very much that this law was based on some christian agenda. americans are very sensitive to things like pedophilia in general. it doesnt surprise me that that they would have a law like this.

second, saying things like "I demand freedom for sinners. I demand they be allowed to sin, I demand that their sins be their own business and for all of you to stop pretending as if you know what is best for anyone else but yourself. " shows the ignorance on your part.

your pro-sin. i got it. but i guarantee you arent when someone elses sin affects you or someone you love. the second someone crosses that line between desire and action, someone gets hurt.

should manga guy go to prison, no, i dont think so. but going to the opposite extreme is not going help either. laws sometimes help "closet "sinners"" stay in the closet. it prevents them from gaining the courage to put their sins into action and harm the rest of us. if a law is going to make pedophiliacs abit edgy a possibly deter them from acting on their desire with a real child, then im all for it.

[edit on 1-6-2009 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566


It is puritanism, plain and simple... and we can thank American Christianity for it's obsessive hatred of anything related to deviant sexuality; from Homosexuals, Transgendered folks to things like people who find Japanese fetishist Manga appealing... I have no quarrel or problem with these people.

But average "AMERICANS" seem to... and it is all thanks to the idea or concept that Morality can and should be shoved down everyone's throats, that Sin is a bad thing and should be made illegal because the religious nut jobs are taught to despise and hate the very idea of differene sexualities.

So I advocate that they should be allowed to sin.... whose business is it to tell them how to live their lives if nobody comes to harm?

Whose business is it to make them live in fear of their own impulses by passing laws in order to criminalize their sexuality?

There are still states which have severe laws against Homosexuality on their books, laws prohibiting and forbidding it as illegal.

People have a right to live their lives free of molestation no matter WHAT turns them on.... and making up specious arguments about the Slippery Slope and how encouraging these people will only make more of them is not beared out by the brunt of the studies I've reviewed;

Pornography, on the whole, has been studied in various different nations and in general it seems to have a benefescent effect on the instances of violent sex crimes committed; it reduces them from most of the numbers. However, certain people did not like the outcome of these reports, so hired and paid their own researchers to come up with a result that was more favorable to their political agendas.

Are you then going to argue that somehow, Paedophilic pornography has some magical quality that seperates it from acting in the same capacity? Because that is the most common argument I come across, that somehow this sort of pornography is magically different from all the rest and will cause people to go out and rape children.

I'm sorry, but I both don't believe it and feel that the argument on it's face is ridiculous.

Let's all applaud the availability of such materials and at the same time let the world know that we do not approve of actually "using" such filth. This seems strange but in a free society one must realize that freedom is a two way street. Quite a balancing act I know.

As far as sin goes. I believe that any sin when given a foothold will consume its host. One sin is the same as the other. Some may say that one sin is not as bad as the other but if you look at sin as God would it is all the same. Whatever sin it is can make a stronghold in your life and be very hard to get away from without Jesus.

2 Corinthians 10:3-6 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds

5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 and having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Spiritual warfare is very real. It is going on right now all around us...

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
and we can thank American Christianity for it's obsessive hatred of anything related to deviant sexuality;

we are not talking about deviant sexuality.

we are talking about pedophilia. HUGE difference.

So I advocate that they should be allowed to sin.... whose business is it to tell them how to live their lives if nobody comes to harm?

if noone comes to harm. i agree. but often when it comes to pedophilia that is not often the case.

People have a right to live their lives free of molestation no matter WHAT turns them on.... and making up specious arguments about the Slippery Slope and how encouraging these people will only make more of them is not beared out by the brunt of the studies I've reviewed;

then you dont know the first thing about fetishes. fetishes ALWAYS start gradual and eventual build up. maybe if you stop look at statistics and studied the psychology behind it you would see that what you are saying is rubbish

Are you then going to argue that somehow, Paedophilic pornography has some magical quality that seperates it from acting in the same capacity?

no. what im going to say is that pedophilia is an urge that is rarely ever acted on with a consenting second party. why risk stoking the flame.

in fact im not sure i have anything else to say because frankly some of the statements you are making are getting under my skin.

reply to post by miriam0566


I've studied Psychology as well as Abnormal Psychology. I am also aware of many, many people who refute your statements of Fetishism. I somehow doubt you, yourself, have any real fetishes of a kind not considered vanilla by common day standards (If you have any).

Also, for the matter of getting under your skin with my statements....

Good. People need to be made uncomfortable about their positions, especially when they advocate the dehumanization of Paedophiles and continue on about studies that are never cited, numbers that are never quoted, and just blather and spew on about cultural memes that have been popularized by the mass media as being the truth.

The TRUTH is.... that you can't have an objective study about Paedophiles or Paedophilia, because the people that the study is conducted in are almost always comprised of convicted felons. That is not a representative study, and it never will be until Paedophiles are allowed their paraphilia and interviewed about it outside of being terrified of the witch hunt.

No Paedophile outside of Jail will ever talk to someone conducting a study, because the fear is that any person will turn them in for an attraction; as such, there is no way to have a representative sample of NON-offending Paedophiles to compare with the Offenders.

And so, every study you've ever READ about Paedophiles is, essentially, a Lie in the statistical sense because none of them can claim impartiality.

And then you must also consider the case of biased sources who have an interest in pressing a particular vision or agenda that betters their position in things, or the outright exploitation of fear for your children utilized by powerhungering bureaucrats wishing to implement new laws or to get re-elected.

To refer back to the link to which I began this whole thread with; These manga are not uncommon in japan. They are very common. Child-like manga characters being raped by monsters, family members, aged salary men and other things are a very, very common theme in most Anime Ero-Ge (Erotic Manga).

You should do a study on the instance of sexual offenses committed in Japanese society, where this kind of comic is prevalent; I think you'll be surprised to find that America is an order of Magnitude worse than Japan could ever be.

Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Also, for the matter of getting under your skin with my statements....

Good. People need to be made uncomfortable about their positions, especially when they advocate the dehumanization of Paedophiles and continue on about studies that are never cited, numbers that are never quoted, and just blather and spew on about cultural memes that have been popularized by the mass media as being the truth.

take you studies and your statistics and put it []

im not talking about studies

you have no idea what you are talking about. pedophilia is not an innocent sexual diversion.

Originally posted by miriam0566
your pro-sin. i got it. but i guarantee you arent when someone elses sin affects you or someone you love. the second someone crosses that line between desire and action, someone gets hurt.

I'm not interested in discussing paedophilia, but this statement is very telling.

"Pro-sin"? A sin is just a matter of opinion. One man's vice is another man's virtue, you cannot begin to make hard-and-fast rules for things that are simply opinion.

This is what the OP is talking about - religious attitudes and morals driving otherwise normal people to enforce their views on others when they have no right to do so.

Originally posted by GuiltyByDesign
reply to post by TheColdDragon

 

What most 'moral' people fail to grasp is that freedom is a double-edged sword. It HAS to be. Freedom is letting EVERYONE, even those you absolutely cannot stand or agree with, have equal rights as long as they do not PHYSICALLY harm you.

I abhor those manga comics. However, this is a free, or supposedly free society. As such, I choose to stay far, far away from such things. I do not agree at all with anything in those comics, but guess what?

According to the Constitution, they have as much right to be printed and viewed by whomever as I do to worship God and read my Bible.

True story, however inconvienent as it may be.

Hear Hear! I too abhor any kind of child porn, or any unnatural act with a child. But, the First Amendment is free speech, and we are talking about a comic. I myself have seen sites, American sites, that feature cartoon characters in sexual poses.

It surely is a double edged sword in cases like the one mentioned. One thing is clear, for as long as there have been men, there has been rape of women and children and sex with children....in many cultures this is still an accepted thing. Just a few weeks ago I read of a 9 year old Saudi girl getting a divorce from her 50+ year old husband. The majority thinks this is wrong, the minority thinks it is good, so, what to do?
I can criminalize these acts, but cannot demonize those who did them. Locking these people up at taxpayer expense, is this a good plan? How about an island just for them, where they can view child porn all day in return for work? They could be self sustaining, and out of our collective hair, and away from our children. for lack of procreation, they would eventually all die off. Thoughts?

reply to post by autowrench


The common response to your somewhat reasoned proposition is still going to be negative, because it is never about protecting children or society; it is about demonizing these people.

They'll never be willing to let those people live, elsewhere, where they aren't harming anyone... because again, it's not about harm or children; it's about hatred and intolerance.

Let's review.... I've seen threads on ATS about Child pornography generated by taking adult sex models and reverse aging them with certain tools till they are underaged.... I've seen threads talking about Manga and I've seen threads talking about a photograph exhibit in an Australian Museum.

And to wit, there are always people who don't care that these sort of things don't hurt anyone, they want it all destroyed and the people along with it.

You could have a virtual reality wherein these people are locked in and are able to fulfill any perverse desire and you would still have people advocating their murder.

It is about Hate, it is not about protecting children.

reply to post by miriam0566


I wouldn't say any sexual diversion is innocent, as I think the term belies the act or thought thereof.

However, I do have a better idea because I've likely been doing this longer about this specific topic, have studied anthropology, sociology, psychology, abnormal psychology, philosophy, logic and ethics.

Consider the harm in your reaction being taken too far; I defend Paedophiles and the dregs of humanity, the trash that nobody else is willing to stick up for. A person with enough anger and resentment at this position might implicate me as a Paedophile.

What happens then? I'll let you know that I am a parent of a five year old, whom I love dearly and whom I fear for daily about his future since his parents are separated, and in which the other parent is not above lying to get everything they want.

People have been convicted merely on the sayings of witnesses, without any evidence proferred. So, let us assume I were to go to jail for such a thing as this, what happens to my son?

His life, essentially, would be completely ruined. Statistics show that male children have a three times more likely chance of being criminals if one of their parents was in jail while growing up.

But I'll go on defending them. I'll take the risk that someone goes crazy and decides to implicate me about such a thing some day, because I feel free speech is more important than anyone's life... and I can't look my son in the eyes and tell him I did any less, no matter who it was for.

Thank you OP for the wonderful conversation.

I'll be flagging this, I think everybody can gain a little perspective from the debate going on in this thread.

Now I have also studied these things and am very informed on anime and manga culture in general. That man, should be left to his own vices, pure and simple.

And I agree that this is about hate and intolerance, not helping or protecting children. It's about how Western society are such prudes compared to the rest of the world when it comes to sex in general.

I've been to Japan and sex is absolutely everywhere. And I mean EVERYWHERE. They are not ashamed of their desires, their deepest and most exciting fantasies.

And the OP is the right. The number of sex related crimes in Japan are far fewer than those in the US. I think of the primal reasons for this is lack of expression.

People are forced to keep these sort of feelings inside, instead of exploring a healthy alternative to expressing those emotions, they are forced to get the real thing.

Let's be real here, anybody who abuses ad child or anybody who forces themselves upon any person is a problem and should be kept away from the people they may hurt.

But if given a constructive outlet, that again, hurts nobody, should that not be something that is somewhat encouraged for these people?

The religious bases in this country have kept an emotional blur over most of their followers. And by this I mean mainstream religion. To each their own and of course nobody thinks in the same exact way.

But these institutions have made us believe that EVERYBODY wants things a certain way, when really it's a few who are pushing their agenda and using corrupt politics to help move it forward.

As for judging people for their sins. I don't believe in "sin". I think people are people. Each with their own likes and dislikes. What one person considers a sin, the other considers a proper lifestyle.

Nobody has the right to judge people based on their preferences. The law and the higher power are those with that kind of privilege.

We need more libertarianism in this society, for the sake of our sanity.

~Keeper

If someone is drawn to something that they absolutely know is wrong then they should seek help. In this case we all know it is wrong. I do not believe letting someone use this hideous material as an outlet will help them. I believe it will only get worse for the individual.

Why not ask for the desire to see such things to go away? At its very core it is hatred and will lead to death.

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

If asked with a real desire to please God and not ones self the chains are broken and replaced with peace.


James 4:7-10 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double-minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth
This is what the OP is talking about - religious attitudes and morals driving otherwise normal people to enforce their views on others when they have no right to do so.

i agreed with the OP on the statement that this man is going to jail unjustly for something that in the end doesnt harm anyone.

as disgusted as i am at pedophiles, this man who collected the manga did not harm anyone sine the "victims" were nothing but drawings.

what pisses me off is that the OP crosses a line. he's saying that the pedophile's desires are "ok" and then proceeds to christians for the fact that its not.

bible or no bible, the desire to rape a child is wrong. anyone who thinks its ok has to twist logic pretty far to get there