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Freedom for Sinners

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posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by jackflap
 


But what is right and wrong is all relative. There is no clear cut black and white of right and wrong. Some people think cursing is wrong and that if there is a hell I am going there for some words I say.

Some people think marijuana is wrong while others use it daily, some people think drinking is wrong, etc I love the quote from the song Too Much Too Young Too Fast "if its the end of days, i'm going out in style"




posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by stereovoyaged
 


Oh man now I have to quote one of my more favorite lyrics.


The devil appeared like Jesus through the steam in the street Showin' me a hand I knew even the cops couldn't beat I felt his hot breath on my neck as I dove into the heat It's so hard to be a saint when you're just a boy out on the street



Bruce Springsteen. Don't worry about your lifestyle and if it is ok with God. Develop a relationship with Him first and see what He has to show you. He takes everyone just as they are. You do not have to change a thing.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by jackflap
 

Nice "Boss" tune. I could go back and forth with lyrics all day. lol

Well I appreciate your attitude towards God. Your not damning me to hell, lol. Thing is, I don't believe in sin or hell or judgement, BUT I still know right from wrong and it is refreshing to meet a christian that is not an extremist (as a good 75% are, whether they like to admit it or not). Guess I will throw a GnR lyric in, "Live and let die" lol



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
I do not recognize right or wrong as precepts that are fundamental upon the structure of reality. I recognize harm, however, as something that is not preferable in either an individual or sociological capacity.


so you recognize the car crash, but you refuse to acknowledge its source?

how is that logical?



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 11:07 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I'm not certain your analogy was as clever as you intended it. For one, a car crash tends to be a result of either poor reaction time or negligence. The sources are human error, and car crashes have less than nothing to do with Morality, sin, and human vanity.

There is no fundamental essence of good and evil imbedded in reality; the world doesn't weep when something terrible happens, and the universe does not suffer. Right and wrong are subjective constructs of the human mind, a cognizant rationalization of survival preference in the face of social pressures.

Thusly, it is no more right nor wrong for an individual to think of the worst crimes. It is nothing more than it being. Harm, on the other hand, is demonstrably harmful. Ones thoughts can no more cut you than can a feather, but action can do far more than harm.

Such is the difference between the physcial and the mental; the mental, by all rights, should be sacrosanct, even unto the most perverse of pleasures.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 


I believe the analogy that was made is a good one. The car crash representing the actual act of someone fulfilling their lusts on a victim. And the pedophilia being the vehicle which drove the individual to carry it out. A very good analogy actually.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by jackflap
 


Unless it also isn't... you infer an assumption an action was taken. All arguments I have seen infer an action will be taken from thoughts... these are arguments devoid of human reason or self control. You have self control, do you not? I am sure there is something you crave that you do not indulge in daily.

Internal processes do not equate to external action. You can say "They MIGHT do this, They MIGHT sin" all you like... and it continues to fail as an argument.

Consequentially, Possibility is not an argument.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 



People who have been convicted of such crimes are found to be in possession of tons of this awful material. It's not such a stretch, but I believe all of them will say that is how it started. But what of those people who have not put action to their lustful desires?

1Peter 5:8 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

They are easy pickings...



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by jackflap
 


Logical failure; Correlation does not equal causation. Furthermore, I'd like your sources.

People who have been caught and arrested for Child pornography who are possessing it are going to possess it... however, this does not mean they are guilty of any other crime.

People who are arrested and incarcerated for child molestation or rape do not always have a collection of such materials. In fact, some studies find that many offenders are not classically Paedophilic in nature but are acting off of abuses from their own childhood, are sociopathic or have other severe issues which predominantly cause them to act out.

The Paraphilia, in and of itself, is not necessarily a sign that they have done anything beyond being attracted.

Another failure in the argument is that you hear about the people who are caught, prosecuted and jailed by the law. As such, there is no unbiased cross-section determining whether the people caught are the extreme fringes of a paraphilia (As in there could be an order of magnitude more Paedophiles that are not arrested for any reason), or if they are in fact a representative sample.

What I do know, however, is that PEOPLE WHO ARE ARRESTED WILL HAVE EVIDENCE AGAINST THEM. So your point is moot, the correlation does not equate a causation.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 


I really don't have any way of backing up my last post above. I would not even want to look up information like that. I guess it's just a gut feeling on my part and not shored up with statistical evidence. ColdDragon your posts demand respect and ask flatly for an answer to something that borders on the spiritual and material. I can tell you that spiritual warfare is very real and is going on as we speak. No statistical evidence for that either. I can plainly see the evil in what you think should be considered as normal human behavior.

I know there is a reason that the material in question is considered illegal. I know I could find the reason if I looked. I will not look because I am quite content with it being illegal. So I will not be posting any of that. If that is what you were hoping for, sorry to disappoint. I know you are smart. I respect what you have to say and enjoy your posts. You are certainly the ColdDragon, well done.

We should take a stand one way or the other. You are against the material being illegal or your not. You know my stance.

Revelation 3:15-18 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

The above was to the Laodiceans. I believe it is applicable to us on this level as well.

Isaiah 55:6-7 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

I will remember you and all others who may be trapped in this stuff in my prayers. I'm not saying I think you are trapped. I mean people who cannot get away from this stuff. Like I said the battle is real. I would feel better knowing that someone with your knowledge and intelligence was on the same side as me.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
For one, a car crash tends to be a result of either poor reaction time or negligence. The sources are human error, and car crashes have less than nothing to do with Morality, sin, and human vanity.


i never suggested it did. and your right, they are human error. however if one wants to avoid a car crash, one must observe what brings about the crash in the first place. correct?

you agree that rape is a crime and that it shouldnt be done. if we want to control or alleviate rape cases, shouldnt we examine the causes?

you are so quick to say that porn, fantasies, daydreaming has NOTHING to do with it, and yet you provide no satisfying alternatives. its like you think that rape, murder, molestation is just something that "happens". and yet you give nothing to prove your claim.

in fact, your whole premise is bullcrap. you start by saying things like "There is no fundamental essence of good and evil imbedded in reality" and yet you ignore the fact that you a basing your claims and your beliefs on that same morality.

the only difference is, you base your morality on a different standard.

"Harm, on the other hand, is demonstrably harmful. Ones thoughts can no more cut you than can a feather, but action can do far more than harm."

this is your standard. "harm". what is harm? why does it affect humans so strongly. your right, he universe doesnt weep when something terrible happens. a rock doesnt cry when another rock is crushed does it? and yet we are not rocks.

you imply a equation of humanity minus the humanity part. and it leaves us with your posts which only make sense to psychopaths.

you fail to see that a crime that "does harm" has its infancy in a person's mind.

you think that person just murders for no rhyme or reason? never. there is always something going on in his mind first. and while i agree with you that a man shouldnt be punished for his thoughts, you assertion that this would not lead to things bigger is just plain ignorant.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon
Unless it also isn't... you infer an assumption an action was taken. All arguments I have seen infer an action will be taken from thoughts... these are arguments devoid of human reason or self control. You have self control, do you not? I am sure there is something you crave that you do not indulge in daily.


again displaying your ignorance of the subject.

self control vs. something you dont like = easy

but now pit it against something you love, something you desire strongly. if you think that is a walk in the park then you have never really tried.



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
again displaying your ignorance of the subject.


This dignifies no response.



self control vs. something you dont like = easy


Except that I stated, "Is there not something you crave?" Which alludes specifically to things people like that they must restrain themselves from indulging in.



but now pit it against something you love, something you desire strongly. if you think that is a walk in the park then you have never really tried.


Take as common example the average male who views pornography, does this make him a rapist or likely to become one? It incites the desires, it fans the lust... yet it does not cause them to go out and rape women.

However, you as well as others make an argument that Child Pornography is different; this is the very foundation whereby the laws are based... yet how accurate is the statement? Various studies where concerns pornography in and of itself shows that it has a reductive effect on sex crimes... This bolstered by example that Japan's rate of Rape crimes is an order of magnitude less than the U.S. yet they allow any and all depictions of pornography in their doujin manga's (Curiously, though, they aren't allowed to show either the male or female orifice, so you have the strange examples of extreme forms of pornography with tiny bits sensored).

Regardless, I am the side of reason above and beyond emotion and morality. As The Cold Dragon, my domain belongs to Logos; Reason free of Passion. Gut feelings, mental inferences and "What seems to make emotional sense" hold no sway over me, merely hard reality... and no-one has ever shown me studies to rebut those I've already researched, though many frequently claim there are such studies without ever citing a source (A repeating act of frustration unto me, as I very much enjoy additional information on most topics).

From my spiritual side, I can say this; As a Gnostic, I am well aware that the indulgences we partake of in our life can rule us and weigh the soul down. I would hope for my fellow man that they would learn the same and free themselves from the bondages of vice; They distract and misguide the soul, but are no more harmful beyond that.



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 04:14 AM
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My whole take on sin is that we are only human and we were created with frailty and imperfection. There is no denying it. Even the most pious has sinned more than once in their lifetime.

I detest the holier than thou types because they have skeletons in their closet as well as any human. No person is free from sin. The only defense against sin is our ability to choose to partake in it or restrain. Free-will is a very powerful thing. That is one of the gifts God gave man. We can choose how we live our lives and treat others. However, with each choice there is a outcome some are good while others are bad.

With sin there is always the opportunity to learn from it and better yourself in the process. In terms of my own life, I try to view everyone with an open mind and an open heart. I put my pants on the same way as others, therefore; I am no different. If I were to place judgement on anyone I would be a hypocrite because I have sinned like them.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Jakes51]



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by TheColdDragon
 


I star and flag you.

The only one who can judge sinners is God Himself.

Jesus is our Saviour.

People judge, people are wrong. People will be judged.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 04:32 AM
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Originally posted by TheColdDragon

Originally posted by miriam0566
again displaying your ignorance of the subject.

This dignifies no response.


really... its not a dig. your statements are not conducive with a person that has any experience with desire. for example...


Take as common example the average male who views pornography, does this make him a rapist or likely to become one? It incites the desires, it fans the lust... yet it does not cause them to go out and rape women.


its like saying

-lighting a match starts a fire.
-feeding the fire wood makes the fire bigger
BUT, that fire is NOT the cause of the house burning down.

what? i mean we are long past "different opinion". what you are claiming is just absurd. and i hope that by no means you think that i am taking the opposite polar degree. i agree that pornography doesnt mean you WILL go out and rape or molest, but to ignore the connection doesnt make sense. its illogical.

a person does not rape, molest, or kill unless there is a strong desire there before he does it, and what you basically saying is, pornography does NOTHING to put that desire there.... correction, you contradict yourself, because before you stated that porn fans the lust, but somehow you separate lust from desire.


However, you as well as others make an argument that Child Pornography is different; this is the very foundation whereby the laws are based... yet how accurate is the statement? Various studies where concerns pornography in and of itself shows that it has a reductive effect on sex crimes... This bolstered by example that Japan's rate of Rape crimes is an order of magnitude less than the U.S. yet they allow any and all depictions of pornography in their doujin manga's (Curiously, though, they aren't allowed to show either the male or female orifice, so you have the strange examples of extreme forms of pornography with tiny bits sensored).


first off, child porn IS different BECAUSE it has a victim. in my case, pictures were taken while i was abused. so if rape is wrong, then why is pictures of the rape ok?

manga, and this guys apparent fetish is different (there is no victim) but is also the same (same desires and lusts). you choose to look at the harm but you ignore the foundation, the cause of the problem.

you are basically preaching that fires dont burn houses (porn doesnt fuel desires) based solely on the fact that you LIKE to set fires (you want freedom to sin). doesnt sound at all logical to me.


Regardless, I am the side of reason above and beyond emotion and morality. As The Cold Dragon, my domain belongs to Logos; Reason free of Passion. Gut feelings, mental inferences and "What seems to make emotional sense" hold no sway over me, merely hard reality... and no-one has ever shown me studies to rebut those I've already researched, though many frequently claim there are such studies without ever citing a source (A repeating act of frustration unto me, as I very much enjoy additional information on most topics).


logic is not based on consensus. at least it shouldnt be. stop using studies as a crutch and actually think about what you are saying.



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
With sin there is always the opportunity to learn from it and better yourself in the process. In terms of my own life, I try to view everyone with an open mind and an open heart. I put my pants on the same way as others, therefore; I am no different. If I were to place judgement on anyone I would be a hypocrite because I have sinned like them.


i agree, when it comes to smaller sins, however there is a line when those sins start to hurt others.

i think cold dragon agrees with that too, just he thinks the line is farther way than most people



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Jakes51
With sin there is always the opportunity to learn from it and better yourself in the process. In terms of my own life, I try to view everyone with an open mind and an open heart. I put my pants on the same way as others, therefore; I am no different. If I were to place judgement on anyone I would be a hypocrite because I have sinned like them.


i agree, when it comes to smaller sins, however there is a line when those sins start to hurt others.

i think cold dragon agrees with that too, just he thinks the line is farther way than most people


So are you referring to venial sins when you say smaller ones? What do you categorize as small sins? To me, all sin can harm others. For instance, you may be a drug addict and you think you are only hurting yourself but in all reality you are hurting everyone that is a part of your life. That's just one example and their are many others. The act of sin compounds itself in terms of hurting you physically, mentally, spirtually, and lastly socially.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Jakes51]



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
So are you referring to venial sins when you say smaller ones? What do you categorize as small sins? To me, all sin can harm others. For instance, you may be a drug addict and you think you are only hurting yourself but in all reality you are hurting everyone that is a part of your life. That's just one example and their are many others. The act of sin compounds itself in terms of hurting you physically, mentally, spirtually, and lastly socially.


religiously, my thoughts on sin is that sin is rebellion against god. so technically sin whether small or big is rebellion.

but how it relates to the OP is that colddragon is asserting that morality is completely made up (which it is, its made by god) but even if you take "morality" out of the picture, you still need some standard to replace it.

yes, some sins are "harmless". i have never heard of a person actually going blind, or catching some disease from masturbating. but that is on a short term scale.

colddragon is saying basically that if it is harmless short term, then likely it is harmless long term and i totally disagree with that.

i believe looking at porn, especially porn that elicits desires of rape, snuff, or children can affect a person, and that that affected person is more likely to act on their desires.

someone once said to me that "fantasizing about sinning means that given the oppurtunity, you would act on those desires". and i have found that statement to be completely true.

what holds back crime is the fear of getting caught. take away that fear, and things change. its the riot mentality.

if you take manga boy, and put him in a situation with a child, and then take away any reason to think that he will be caught, i guarantee he will take advantage of the situation. after all what would be stopping him? nothing.

this is why people go to places like morocco and thailand to satisfy their childsex desires. less likely to get caught.



posted on Jun, 9 2009 @ 06:33 AM
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i love reading threads like this. i laugh from a good healthy place every time.




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