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Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

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posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 03:04 AM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Locoman8
 


I doubt that Jesus was just average looking, because he had perfect genetics, he was also a perfect human. That means his immune system would minimize any sickness that went around, he was probably never sick a day in his life. Perfection also means you never cause yourself harm by accidents, such as a carpenter hitting his thumb with a hammer.

The pictures where Christendom shows Jesus as a thin weak person are wrong for sure.

The son of God would have been good looking and strong, but he was limited to the perfect but yet natural abilities of his human body, thus he did get tired.



The bible plainly states that Jesus was a normal looking jew. He had to be identified with a kiss for the Jews to arrest Him because He did look like a typical jew. He escaped death in Jerusalem when He said "before Abraham was, I AM." by fadeing into the crowd. He was still subject to human suffering while in the flesh. He did experience pain. The crucifixion tells you that. He was perfect in the fact He never sinned. He still had the imperfections of human flesh. Spiritual genetics were perfect, not the physical characteristics. My point is, the image of JMDewey's avatar is contradictory to biblical facts and in the wrong use can be considered idolatry.




posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by badmedia
 


The only understanding I can give you is biblical because I believe the bible is our christian checklist. The purpose of the Sabbath is understood, at least in part by most people. Why worship and rest on the 7th day? Because God said so, just like you said. Why do we rest? To rest from worldly things and give that day to God for worship. Why the 7th day? Because He created in the first 6 days and rested on the 7th. Every 7th day is a memorial of creation and what God did for us. I do it because God said so, but I also do it because I know the spiritual meaning behind the Sabbath. 1 day in heaven is 1000 years on earth according to the bible. Man's rule on earth is a 6000 year labor for humanity. When Jesus returns at the end of the 6000 years, He will usher in a 7th mellenium of peace and REST. It is our Sabbath mellenium. That is the spiritual meaning behind resting on the 7th day.


I understand what the belief is and so forth. I'm just saying I see no understanding or reason for it in the big picture of things. "Because I said so" is just not the father I know at all. Even when I tried to give my will to the father it wasn't taken. Instead, I was given understanding of the commandments and so forth so that I could follow them myself.

But they weren't called commandments or any labels at all, they were just understandings. Such as with - do not steal. How can I expect to live in a society/place that doesn't have theft, if I myself steal? My very presence makes it impossible. See, that is understanding. "Because I said so" is not at all what the father gives to me, quite the opposite.

And I don't buy into that the world is 5000+ years old either, which I'm guessing you are using the Jewish calendar?.

The 1 day = 1000 years thing is not literal IMO. It's saying that 1 day = a long period of time well beyond our concept of time. Meaning, it's more of a general order of things, rather than a literal time scale.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 05:37 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I don't believe the world is nearly 6000 years old. I believe the human race is nearly 6000 years old. The earth was here long before creation week. God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning" not on day 1.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 07:01 AM
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I had my cousin tell me something yesterday but I am not sure how true it is. It does seem to have some logic to it. He had one of his friends leave it on a voicemail. This is unsolicited by me. For no apparent reason, this little chain of events brought me this little bit of opinion about the Sabbath. I guess I should share it since it seemed so important to these people.
The first part of the law, as it was called by Jesus, is the first four of the Ten Commandments. The theory part of this comes into this as the idea that all four commandments are about idolatry. This includes the fourth which is the Sabbath commandment.
How is it about idolatry? That was my question. The answer, which was in the voice mail, gives the example of the Sunday of the Roman "Church" having been set up as an idol.
So, I guess this idea of every wantabe god setting up its own day of worship is nothing new. It probably has been around since oldest civilization. It could be God saying keep my day, and thus avoid idolatry because I will give you credit for your keeping of it as a way of not being guilty of idolatry.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Interesting theory and very possible. The first 4 commandments show love for God, so breaking them would be considered idolatry. Good post. Star for you.



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by badmedia
 


I don't believe the world is nearly 6000 years old. I believe the human race is nearly 6000 years old. The earth was here long before creation week. God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning" not on day 1.


I'm pretty sure the "earth" in the creation of the heavens and earth is not talking about the planet earth. But is instead talking about matter and space.

The matter is without form, and a planet is a form. From that matter, the earth is formed(later).

I always wonder if aliens don't roam around thinking - "what a bunch of idiots, they call their planet dirt". And then from the movie "Joe Dirt", they are saying - "That's why god named your planet Dirt, That's why god named your planet Dirt".


So earth in the first day simply means matter. In the beginning he created matter and space(time). And then he says let their be light, and there was light etc. This is much more in line with science and our understanding today.


[edit on 7/22/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Jul, 22 2009 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I guess that's one way of looking at it. I see the planet as being created and later destroyed on the surface due to spiritual warfare between God and Lucifer, involving comet and asteroid impacts and such. Your way of seeing it is interesting and not too out of this world but I respectfully disagree with your idea on the creation.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Well it's all just a program. So I tend to look at things from a programmers point of view.

When you make a 3d world, thats basically what you get at the start of it. A "void", a camera(god/observer) and a light source(optional, and can be added after). So that is what I see it as, in terms of logic.

When it says that creation is made with the "word", I view that word as being logic. In a program, you create them based only on words. But they are words of logic, and the program then carries out that logic. Logic of programs is basically a set of "laws"(not commandments, those are different, I'm talking gravity etc).

And then the spirit of the father enters the program and brings it to life. Just like a program doesn't come to life until someone with consciousness plays it.

Not that we are on god's pc or anything exactly. Just that consciousness creates logic, and that creation itself is a result of that logic.

Interesting topic, but not much reason for heavy debate. It's all about how you want to look at it, each can be saying the same basic things.

It's kind of like a statue. If we put out a statue in the middle of a square, and we put 4 people on each side of it. And we only allow them to see that 1 side, each will leave and argue on forever and ever about what it looked like, until each realizes they only saw a small portion of it all.

I mean, I can see your point of view. It can in it's own way be true as well, and not disagree for me. If you consider that in the first part all of creation is made(which would be all of what I'm talking about), and there have been other civilizations and such here before(very possible IMO), then I can see that account as being the start from there.

But it would be like Star Wars, watching episodes 4,5,6 first, and getting to know 1,2,3 later after it's already over.

I just don't know about those things, so I consider them possible.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I always liked part 3 of Star Wars just because it links the two sets of episodes together. I feel that way about the bible. Many people would throw out the apocrypha of the old testament out just because it was not part of the cannon but the books of the Maccabeeans 1,2,3, and 4 all fill in a 400 year gap between the old and new testaments. They are specifically historic books which is probably why they were thrown out as part of the authorized version... Interesting though, the original KJV bible of 1611 had the apocrypha in it. Anyways, that's sort of what I thought about when you used the star wars analogy. Part 3 links it all together.

You mentioned laws and commandments being different and I see where you're getting at but when you view the commandments the way I do, they are God's spiritual laws. They are active laws and always have been active just like the law of gravity. If these spiritual laws were not in place, no one would have understanding of what is right or wrong and the world would be in chaos... but we know killing is bad and fooling around on your spouse is bad. We know stealing people's things are bad. We know that disobeying God causes Him to pour His wrath or remove His blessings. Katrina hit New Orleans... a cestpool of sin.... like the Vegas of the south. I'm referring to Mardi Gras.

Think about it. Lucifer created sin. Sin is defined in the bible as "transgression of the Law" and God's spiritual law is the Ten Commandments. Lucifer decided he was better than God (breaking commandments 1,2,3,5,6,7, and 10). Later, as Satan he broke other laws and convinced man to break them as well. They are active laws that, if followed for the right reasons (spiritually, with no burden) the world would be at peace and harmony.

You sound as if you view things in a "Matrix" way. Interesting but I don't want to take your red pill.

[edit on 7/23/2009 by Locoman8]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


In the matrix, neo plays the role of Jesus. It's not easy to see at first glance, but in a study of it he generally plays that role. He even dies and is resurrected.

But the matrix does speak many truths, but in the matrix it's still a physical place on the "other side". That is a limitation of communication of men. So if someone takes the matrix literally, that is not really true. But it expresses many elements of today's society and brings up many good philosophical arguments.

The pill is metaphorical and means to look beyond the veil and beyond the lies society feeds us.

But that isn't why I say the universe is a program. I say it is a program because programs are based on logic, and creation itself is based on logic. I do not mean on a literal PC or anything like that. Doesn't really have much to do with the movie the matrix.

Also, the commandments are for spiritual means, where we have free will. It's what makes us different from creation itself, and is why we are hated by this "world".



[edit on 7/23/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 07:37 AM
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If the law is done away with, then you cannot sin, because as John said...

1JOHN 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What else does John say?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Many of Paul's verses can be translated in a way to make it look like he said the law was done away, but he was actually talking about the punishment being done away, through grace and repentance, or when he talked about being under the law, he was talking about being under the punishment of the law, because of sin not being repented of. Grace, even in today's legal system, is having punishment for disobeying the law in the PAST taken away, the law is itself is not done away with, neither does is give you free reign to break the law in the future. Grace is what you receive when you are called, but you must still be baptized to receive forgiveness for your past sins.

Paul stated plainly that the law is not done away...

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 7:12 So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

The best and most indisputable verse though is from Christ himself...

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy (demolish,, throw down) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (render perfect).

People say we are not under the letter of the law, but that's not exactly what is meant by the term. For example, you could say to your child "You are hereby not allowed to by those chocolate bars from the store anymore." Your child could obey your law by the letter, by getting somebody else to buy them for him, and then eat them, but he would be breaking the spirit of what you told him not to do. Christ took the law to another level, a spiritual level, not only could you break the letter of the law, but also the spirit of the law. That is why he said things like even being angry with your brother was tantamount to murder, or lusting after a woman is just as bad as adultery.

The law is not done away, it is perfected, for as Paul himself even said, how would we know sin, and what to repent of, if it weren't for the law.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


An interesting viewpoint.

You can slice this up and dissect this 1000 different ways, but people who are holding on to this old law can't ever possibly be doing it correctly anyway, if you were you would have to be sacrificing animals all the time. And stoning Adulterers and Homosexuals, and that's never going to happen.

No I think this old saying applies here, "In for a penny, in for a pound."

Either were under all of it or none of it. That's not to say many of the idea's never carried over, if they are confirmed in the New Testament they are still good in the sense that we are under them to not sin. For example eating pork used to be a sin, but it isn't anymore.
What about circumcision? If a uncircumcised man in his forties suddenly takes on Christianity with the viewpoint that the mosaic law is still in effect, doesn't that mean he has to go get circumcised?
And not to get personal with anybody of coarse, but if your parents never made that decision for you when were a baby, would go have that done?
See to me it's an exercise in futility, to go half way anyways, and expect that God would favor us by doing this.

I have been following this thread and not commenting because to me doing the things that Locoman is doing aren't bad, they even have good by there very nature embedded in them, but they are not necessary for salvation, especially when they can never embrace the whole law.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 

to me doing the things that Locoman is doing aren't bad, they even have good by there very nature embedded in them, but they are not necessary for salvation, especially when they can never embrace the whole law.
When Jesus is quoted talking about keeping the Law, it should be clear that he meant the Ten Commandments.
When keeping God's Sabbath becomes illegal, keeping any other day becomes idolatry. It will be the same choice that Daniel's three friends faced with the image. There is an image in revelation. What do you think that might be? A false worship. How do we know it is false? The Ten Commandments tells us what is not.



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
An interesting viewpoint.

You can slice this up and dissect this 1000 different ways, but people who are holding on to this old law can't ever possibly be doing it correctly anyway, if you were you would have to be sacrificing animals all the time.


No, because Paul said there was a change made in the law concerning the priesthood, with Christnow becoming High Priest in heaven, and He also said we are to give ourselves as living sacrifices. Like I said, Christ perfected the Law by making it spirutal.


And stoning Adulterers and Homosexuals, and that's never going to happen.


Because none of us is without sin to do this, as Christ pointed out, we would make ourselves hipocrites.



For example eating pork used to be a sin, but it isn't anymore.


Technically eating Pork is not a spiritual sin, unless you lust after it. Eating Pork is a physical law, to keep healthy. Where does it say in Bible that Pork is now healthy?


What about circumcision? If a uncircumcised man in his forties suddenly takes on Christianity with the viewpoint that the mosaic law is still in effect, doesn't that mean he has to go get circumcised?


As the Apostles pointed out, circumcision is now of the heart, it's spiritual.



And not to get personal with anybody of coarse, but if your parents never
I have been following this thread and not commenting because to me doing the things that Locoman is doing aren't bad, they even have good by there very nature embedded in them, but they are not necessary for salvation, especially when they can never embrace the whole law.


So obeying God is not necessary for salvation?

[edit on 23/7/09 by doctorex]



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 




Originally posted by badmedia
Truth is understanding. Jesus is an example of the understanding and wisdom of the OT. What Jesus speaks is not truth because Jesus speaks it. Jesus is an example of the understanding and wisdom because he speaks the truth.



“Truth is understanding”
That’s quite a statement
and it is difficult to argue that it is wrong or right, sometimes people can know or at least be aware of the truth, but not have any or complete understanding of it i.e. know why something is true. For example, I have sometimes known some biblical things to be true, without knowing why or how it is true. It’s a bit like intuition where you somehow know something to be true, but your not entirely sure how or why you know it’s true. Sometimes later you will understand what it means, which then confirms the truth you already new. Of course it doesn’t mostly work that way, most people understand the truth first. I hope that makes sense.

Obviously knowing something is true and understanding why it is true, at the same time, makes the truth much more solid. I guess I see truth as a kind of a knowing in your heart and that the understanding part, is connected to the mind. When the two work together, you get a complete understanding.



Originally posted by badmedia

I believe one has to actually follow the commandments. And as Psalm 111:10 say, those who follow the commandments do so from understanding. The commandments were given to men, but there were not understood by men, and the "wicked" were manipulating them and commiting hypocrisy when they killed the man who killed. Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.

Because of this, Jesus was sent in order to show people the correct way to follow the commandments and to give the understanding needed to do so. Where as Christians find salvation in his death, I find it in his life and example. I find that he is to be followed, not worshipped. That he shows a path, a better way and that is to be followed.

His grace is that he is not full of sin and already understands so he does not need to be here. He is not here to learn the differences between good and evil. But he does these things anyway, in order to show people the truth/path. As men are full of sin, he knows they will kill him for speaking the truth and going against the powers of this world(Satan), but he does it anyway. In his death he shows there is nothing to fear, and that it is better to die than to take up evil and defend your own life. So in the end, he actually wins.
But that has been warped by Paul and the church. And it was turned into it being about his death and "sacrifice", rather than his life and mercy. In this way, the truth(Jesus) is being sacrifice so that the lie/Satan of this world could live. And it does, and will until the truth is resurrected and people follow the truth(Jesus/understanding). And this is exactly why they conspired against him - to keep their own power. It is then pushed off as being a "free gift" by Paul, and that all you have to do is "believe" and all is saved without real effort. Of course, this would mean Jesus out right lied to the rich man that he tells to walk the path.



Most of the Christians I have spoken to, say that you need to do both, believe that “Jesus died for your sins” and believe and follow Jesus life and teachings. I have been thinking a lot lately about this concept of “Jesus died for our sins”, which if completely true, would kind of make Jesus life and teachings pointless, which I don’t believe they are. The question you raise, of why teach people how to enter the kingdom, if your going to later on, allow them another way to enter it freely, is an important question. Jesus death was not pointless because Jesus death, defeated sin, brought the Holy Spirit and defeated Death through the resurrection. My current way of understanding this, is that instead of saying “Jesus died for our sins” it is more accurate to say that, “Jesus died to help us turn to away from our sins” and roughly the same for Jesus life and Teachings; “Jesus lived to help us to turn away from our sins”.




Originally posted by badmedia
The word is that which makes creation. It is logic. Creation is just a program, and programs are created by words/logic. "Jesus" is just a vessel/soul, it is the father(god) within that did those things, he was not the "word".


This is an interesting way of looking at the “word”. The spiritual realm, where God resides, is the real world and it is the true reality. Our flesh/world is our reality, within the program/universe that God created. This is kind of similar to the matrix film concept, except the other way around. God and Jesus who is the “word” created everything together, in our flesh/world. I think the use of the word “word” is sort of connected to the idea that God breaths life into creation from out of his mouth and words carry with them breath. I believe that was the best way people could describe God creating things when Genesis was written.





Originally posted by badmedia
I can keep going. As far as Christians, I am in agreement with the gnostics more than the others. They were persecuted by the church and have been, just as Jesus said those who truly believed would be, not the ones who persecute.


I saw a documentary last year about the Gospel of Judas and found it to be totally amazing especially how Jesus was portrayed as a man who loved to laugh as well as all the other things we already know about Jesus from the other Gospels.

Thanks for posting that video I really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I didn’t have much luck finding the next installment…

I was surprised by the stuff they were talking about towards the end of the video because recently I have become interested in obe’s, meditation and dream interpretation. I had an obe experience when I was younger and I have been meaning to post my experience here at ATS but haven’t quite had the courage to post it yet.

- JC



posted on Jul, 23 2009 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Hey DoctorX. I'm happy to see you here. Another fellow Armstrongist. I keep banging my head on the computer desk trying to explain this thread but people are misunderstanding it. Bluejay, my dear friend here on ATS is completely missing the point with what I'm saying. He is telling me that following the entirety of the mosaic laws are the only true way of following the laws but is misunderstanding the fact that Jesus filled the role of the Levitical Priesthood. The ten commandments, God's spiritual laws, are true and active laws just as the law of gravity. There is a concequence for breaking the laws and there are rewards for following them (in spirit and truth, not just by the letter). I explained in an earlier post that Satan created sin when he was Lucifer. He broke a great number of commandments when he set himself above God and tried overtaking the throne of God. It was asked earlier if anybody followed the commandments and bylaws before Moses recieved the commandments in Exodus and I referenced Genesis when Abraham was said to have kept God's Commandments, Laws, and Ordinances but that was played off by miriam and others as "other commandments" and not necessarily the Ten Commandments. I don't know. I guess some people don't want to understand. Some people don't want to feel bound by the actual Laws of God. Some people want the freedom to worship on a tuesday or sunday instead of the biblically commanded law of the Sabbath. Anywho, that's all for now. I'm glad you joined in on the conversation (even if I think you're a nut job for following Ron Weinland). Can't wait to see what else you bring to the table.



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 02:54 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Hi Locoman, I understand your dilemma, people would rather search for reasons not to obey God than to search for how to obey God. They justify not observing the Sabbath by saying things like God just wanted us to put aside one day (meaning any day, but choose sunday) when the word of God says quite different. He says over and over again, the 7th day. Paul pointed this out quite clearly too...

HEBREWS 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest (a greek word for Sabbath) to the people of God.


By the way, I don't FOLLOW Ron Weinland, I follow Christ, I simply believe that Ron is who Christ is working through in this end time. I've looked into many of the doctrines of the Church of God splinter groups, including UCG (such as their church structure, which is not biblical), and I've found more truth via Ron than others. Just like people think you're a nut for believing the Law is not done away, some people just can't see it, no matter how much you try to explain it, but anyway, back to the topic at hand.....



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Well, you'll be happy to know that I only subscribe to the UCG literature. My Sabbath services are held with the Living Church of God (Tomorrow's World) who's founder is the last surviving evangelist ordained by God through Herbert Armstrong, Mr. Roderick Merideth. This is a little off-topic but I'll make my point in a minute. I once followed up on Ron Weinland back in 2007 as a skeptic with an open mind. After his initial prophecies were a bust, I stopped having even a notion of him claiming to be who he is not. This is not a debate on RW but I get it.

There was an issue with the laws on clean and unclean foods and I think you answered it quite well. I explained earlier how the unclean foods were part of the health laws of God. They weren't specifically tied to the Israelites. They were laws meant to be "PREVENTATIVE" measurements toward diseases, viruses, obesity and a number of other health-related issues. We have advanced medical procedures and diets today which are conter-active. Diet pills help you lose the weight you gained by eating wrong. God's health laws would prevent the problem of obesity (food related) if followed correctly. Is it a sin to break these laws, well that's a touchy subject. I consider the breaking of Commandments as sin and I think that's what's referred to when John wrote "Sin is the transgression of the Law."



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 04:57 AM
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A good point to remember is what Paul said....

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

People rejecting the Law of God actually show their mindset.

[edit on 24/7/09 by doctorex]



posted on Jul, 24 2009 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
“Truth is understanding”
That’s quite a statement
and it is difficult to argue that it is wrong or right, sometimes people can know or at least be aware of the truth, but not have any or complete understanding of it i.e. know why something is true. For example, I have sometimes known some biblical things to be true, without knowing why or how it is true. It’s a bit like intuition where you somehow know something to be true, but your not entirely sure how or why you know it’s true. Sometimes later you will understand what it means, which then confirms the truth you already new. Of course it doesn’t mostly work that way, most people understand the truth first. I hope that makes sense.

Obviously knowing something is true and understanding why it is true, at the same time, makes the truth much more solid. I guess I see truth as a kind of a knowing in your heart and that the understanding part, is connected to the mind. When the two work together, you get a complete understanding.


I would say it's understanding vs acceptance. When you blindly accept things as truth and do not question it, then you almost guarantee you will not understand something.

It's a common theme in the bible. Many times it mentions understanding, and to forsake the foolish and those who accept the wicked. And Jesus carries this on as well. It's the difference between those who can listen vs those who can hear. Anyone can listen to the truth, but only those with understanding really hear it.

I knew what Jesus said was true before I read him saying it. Based only on understanding. When I was younger, I didn't have understanding and the words didn't mean very much to me at all. Seemed more like a system of control. So when I was younger, I could listen to Jesus, but I couldn't hear him until after I was older and gained understanding. So I've experienced both sides of it, and I remember what it is like to only be able to listen, but not hear. To have eyes, but still not see.

People who are too be accepted put themselves into positions of authority. This is why Jesus says specifically do not do such things, because it is not about acceptance, but understanding.

1 man can say 1+1=2, another man can say 3+2=6. Each only say what they have been told to accept. Even though 1 man is right in what he says, the 2 men are actually exactly the same because neither understands how to add. Only when one understands is he able to truly know which is true and which is false. Only by understanding can "no man deceive you".



Most of the Christians I have spoken to, say that you need to do both, believe that “Jesus died for your sins” and believe and follow Jesus life and teachings. I have been thinking a lot lately about this concept of “Jesus died for our sins”, which if completely true, would kind of make Jesus life and teachings pointless, which I don’t believe they are. The question you raise, of why teach people how to enter the kingdom, if your going to later on, allow them another way to enter it freely, is an important question. Jesus death was not pointless because Jesus death, defeated sin, brought the Holy Spirit and defeated Death through the resurrection. My current way of understanding this, is that instead of saying “Jesus died for our sins” it is more accurate to say that, “Jesus died to help us turn to away from our sins” and roughly the same for Jesus life and Teachings; “Jesus lived to help us to turn away from our sins”.


Well it's all a play on words and context. When I first started posting, I might would have said "Jesus is truth". But I started to notice that people were agreeing with me based on the words, but not on the actual meaning of that statement.

So, when it says Jesus died for your sins. There is a context in which I agree with that. But in the context most people put it in(he did it, so you don't have too), then I don't agree with that. The meanings of things are all mixed up.

Take where Jesus says "Church". People make that out to be a place of worship or physical building and so forth. Not at all. The true church is built within a person, and is built of understanding and wisdom - that which is rich in the eyes of god. It is present on both heaven and earth because it is within. Not a physical building at all, and the physical building becomes something to be accepted, is put in replace of the true church and blinds people to the understanding. The whole establishment of the church and organized religion is a lie, that is not what Jesus was talking about with Peter at all. All in the bible gaining understanding and wisdom is likened to building a house. Jesus is a "carpenter", builds houses/churches out of understanding. And he likens the church to being built on a rock(wisdom, check matthew 7).

Not that people meeting in a building to discuss things is bad. But that isn't what happens in church. Preacher(authority) tells people what to accept. When 2 or more people are discussing Jesus, he will be among them. Discussion = asking questions, debating things and so forth. That is what brings about understanding. No preacher should exist by any title or function. Right now, we are building our churches, we are discussing things. No building needed. Some people inform me their churches are not this way, so can't say all are like this. But this is how things are manipulated and not put into the proper contexts and so forth.



Originally posted by badmedia
This is an interesting way of looking at the “word”. The spiritual realm, where God resides, is the real world and it is the true reality. Our flesh/world is our reality, within the program/universe that God created. This is kind of similar to the matrix film concept, except the other way around. God and Jesus who is the “word” created everything together, in our flesh/world. I think the use of the word “word” is sort of connected to the idea that God breaths life into creation from out of his mouth and words carry with them breath. I believe that was the best way people could describe God creating things when Genesis was written.


As I was telling Loco, Neo plays the role of Jesus in that movie. But I don't come to that conclusion because of the movie itself, but rather that I am a programmer and I once had a goal of creating actual intelligence. While doing this, I was posed with very very deep and philosophical questions. Of course, when I asked I recieved, I seek and I found. And so that is basically how I am able to express the understanding I was given in response. I certainly don't mean like a physical computer somewhere that we are all in.

What I found is that "what is spirit is spirit, and what is flesh is flesh". Creation itself is based on laws/order. This means it has logic behind it, and so it is like a program in that way. Spirit/consciousness/god is that which is able to create, understand and reason logic, and is seperate. It can not be programmed, it is impossible that it is of the universe. As it is that which creates logic, it is beyond science and logic itself and can not really be explained. It is that within you that gives you the ability to do the same thing.




I saw a documentary last year about the Gospel of Judas and found it to be totally amazing especially how Jesus was portrayed as a man who loved to laugh as well as all the other things we already know about Jesus from the other Gospels.

Thanks for posting that video I really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I didn’t have much luck finding the next installment…


I've never seen any of them outside that 1 video either. I'm not sure if there are any more of them. I've never read any of the gnostic texts, and I'm not sure exactly what they believe or whatever. But I like that they lead towards the path of understanding and knowledge, rather than the path of acceptance.



I was surprised by the stuff they were talking about towards the end of the video because recently I have become interested in obe’s, meditation and dream interpretation. I had an obe experience when I was younger and I have been meaning to post my experience here at ATS but haven’t quite had the courage to post it yet.


I've only had the vision myself, no obe's. But dreams I often learn during. Like when I am struggling with a question or problem, I often find the answers come to me in my dreams. I have entire ideas for things come to me in my dreams.

I use to hate it when I was younger, because I worked hard manual labor jobs. When I was 16, I was working on these 30 story buildings as a laborer(under the table), and had to hang a ton of insulation all day long. I would dream and be at work basically, doing it over and over. Now I have a job I enjoy and so when I dream about work, it's not to bad and is helpful for it. And when I think about "deeper" topics, it also kicks in then.



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