Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

reply to post by Sigismundus

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, 2001, The Free Press, New York City, ISBN 0-684-86912-8.

It can also be looked up on Wikipedia, where there is a rather extensive article on it.
I read that version and found it interesting.
Politics are involved, that is something explained to me years ago, concerning who had the right to occupy Jerusalem and surrounding area.

reply to post by miriam0566


I'm just loving your comments,

til I came to this one;

" jesus was jewish. so he ofcourse lived by the law. "

To the best of my knowledge, He was a Judahite.

The tribes were already separated 950bc ,and the jews were splinters off

Judah. But to me Israel/Judah/Jew are separate groups.

As separate as Ezekiels forecasts were.

I connect jews with Judaism, which is traditions of men distilled in Babylon.

And the jews mentioned early in the texts were mistranslations, just like

Passover got translated to easter.

And most jews are khzars not Judahites.

I asked the jews who said they got their beliefs in secret from the pharisees who got it from moses. I believe they got it from the pharisees, but I don't believe YHVH had any secrets to pass on. He gave Moses the Ten Commandments and that's all he brought back with him.

To go on, they must first filter the OT/Torah/Tanakh thru the talmud first which negates The Word of YHVH!!! So NO, Yeshua was no jew, ever, but a Judahite yes.

In the final analysis, YHVH's/Gods people are those who believe in Him, no matter what they are referred to as right now.

Have you ever seen this chart? [ page down 8 times to see the one I'm talking about.]

www.asis.com...


[edit on 20-8-2009 by toasted]

[edit on 20-8-2009 by toasted]

reply to post by toasted


Welcome to the thread toasted! I haven't seen you in a while and enjoy your input on things. As you said, Jews came from the tribe of Judah but you should add the tribe of Benjamine too. When the northern Ten tribes separated from Judah and Benjamine, the north was known as Israel and the south was known as Judah, even though Judah consisted of the tribe of Judah and Benjamine (and a portion of the Levites). From the southern kingdom of Judah is where we get the Jewish people. Jews weren't even mentioned as a race or religion until after the death of Solomon and the dividing of the north and south. Jesus was born in Bethlehem which made Him a Jew by default. Also, He is of the lineage of David, who was king of Judah before becoming the king over the entire 12 tribes of Israel, 7 years as a Jewish king to be exact. My argument with the Old Testament laws and why we are bound by them (to some extent) is in the readings of the New Testament stateing to "keep the commandments" and "he who breaks the least of these commandments shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven." These are words from Jesus. To exclude them by saying He was just telling Jews to do it.... or that He was a Jew is irrelevant. We are told as christians to live by Jesus' example yet when His example of keeping the laws come up, people spout out that He fulfilled (by doing away with them) the laws. To fulfill in this sense was to "complete" or "make whole" the laws. The missing element of the OT laws was the Holy Spirit which became available to mankind when Jesus acsended to heaven. God's laws are spiritual and a carnal mind cannot and will not follow the laws fully which is why the Holy Spirit is needed for the laws to be honored wholeheartedly, burdenless, and without complaint. I mean, when Jesus establishes the Kingdom of God on earth, the law of the land will be the Ten Commandments with their spiritual intent (abstain from lust, anger, etc.).

I'm glad to see you in the conversation. Keep on keeping on! (Joe Dirt).

reply to post by toasted

To the best of my knowledge, He was a Judahite.

John 4:9 says, "Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans."
This says he was a Jew. That is in English, so the word would have been different, as spoken by the Samaritan woman, but it would have meant someone from the tribe of Judah.



[edit on 21-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Like I said before, He was born in Bethlehem, which is only 7 miles south of Jerusalem which is in the boundaries of Judah. The entire southern kingdom after Solomon was considered Judah... not just consisting of the tribe of Judah itself, but Judah, Benjamine and a portion of the Levites. So, Jesus was born a Jew by where He was born.

Originally posted by toasted
"jesus was jewish. so he ofcourse lived by the law. "

To the best of my knowledge, He was a Judahite.

i think that if we were referring to modern judaism, what you are saying would be more relevant.

the point i was making was that as a perfect human son of god, jesus would have followed the law.

in fact, the law was made to identify him, because he would be the only person that would be able to follow it perfectly. this is why the pharisees kept harping on the sabbath, if jesus was breaking the sabbath, then he couldnt be the messiah and their positions would be safe. problem was that jesus only violated their by-laws which didnt count.

whether jesus was jewish or isrealite or nazarite or judahite i think is abit inconsequential because he fulfilled the law.

but the information you posted was good, ill be researching it more

Originally posted by miriam0566
[the point i was making was that as a perfect human son of god, jesus would have followed the law.

in fact, the law was made to identify him, because he would be the only person that would be able to follow it perfectly.

He was the only man to follow the law perfectly because He had the Holy Spirit dwelling in Him. He was completely spiritual on the inside. God now pours down His Holy Spirit on those who seek it which allows them to follow the law more perfectly and walk in the way of righteousness.

reply to post by miriam0566



Thank you Miriam.

I guess since I equate, jew with slang and jews with judaism [ not all of them ], which is not scriptural and we / I don't have a better way to describe the difference between those who are and those who are not scriptural I try to keep them separated. And that's NOT the only reason either! I also see many folks broadbrush all the tribes as jews which is wrong because that is simply not the case, they were separate, so I must speak up to show there is a difference and many times they still don't get it...:bnghd:

And I consider YHVH a Christian God from the very beginning, who visited us in the flesh as Yeshua/Jesus to fulfil the law, and so He was never a preacher of judaism, am I wrong?

Perhaps there's a better way to say what I mean....




p.s.

why no comments on the chart?

[edit on 21-8-2009 by toasted]

reply to post by jmdewey60



I hear what you're sayin', but ....I consider jew a slang term, maybe I'm too sensitive here. Do you think He thought of Himself as being a jew or a Judahite
if being a jew meant pharaseeism?

Do you get what I was trying to point out?

Do you think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill?

Do you think it's ok if people confuse the two?

Why did Jesus follow the Law ?

Because he could read it as it was meant.

Curse / Blessing

God is One = Blessing, free of the list-law by the real Law of One
God is divided, so lie = Curse, condemned, witnesses enough

If God is divded you will find witnesses, at least 2 or 3
If God is One, you will not find witnesses, only One

One does not accuse One
the devil (lie) accuses One

Jonathan.


------

“I am the LORD; and there is none else” Isaiah 45,22

Hear, Israel: the Lord is our God; God is one: Deuteronomy 6:4

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:4-5

“For the Father judges no one, but he has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn’t honor the Son doesn’t honor the Father who sent him.” John 5:22-23

“Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise John 5:19

"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. John 5:45

“Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:1-2

Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked. Qur’an 5:46-47


[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by Sigismundus


I think to get into this would put us off topic, so it is time for this very topic.

The thread will be "Was God justified in exterminating the Canaanites?"

Please join me there to discuss.

it happened
so life justified it allready
life is god eh

he was right, because he had a purpose

you know as long you stay in human perspective
you can not understand that,
god his perspective includes the heart of a human perspective,

but thats why he actually did it, to enjy that heart forever, not for a short time
logic is truth, the bible and its misunderstanding gave us so much pain,
that logic is the outcome, and that was what was needed.
paradox is god inside out, but always one

this is a life that has much value,
but it's only 70 years about
after our pain, we will live forever
we will forget this pain

god to be everything has to be that what he isn't
or he wouldn't be everything.

try to understand life from his perspective.
anyway, other topic i guess.



[edit on 22-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

messed up , sorry

[edit on 22-8-2009 by toasted]

Originally posted by toasted
And I consider YHVH a Christian God from the very beginning, who visited us in the flesh as Yeshua/Jesus to fulfil the law, and so He was never a preacher of judaism, am I wrong?

Perhaps there's a better way to say what I mean....

sorry, as tempting as it it... its a different thread.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by toasted
And I consider YHVH a Christian God from the very beginning, who visited us in the flesh as Yeshua/Jesus to fulfil the law, and so He was never a preacher of judaism, am I wrong?

Perhaps there's a better way to say what I mean....

sorry, as tempting as it it... its a different thread.

Yes and one of those threads by the creator(Locoman) of this thread is here
The pre-creation existence of Jesus

Originally posted by toasted
And I consider YHVH a Christian God from the very beginning, who visited us in the flesh as Yeshua/Jesus to fulfil the law, and so He was never a preacher of judaism, am I wrong?

Perhaps there's a better way to say what I mean....

-----

answer:

jesus did not abolish the old law
he fulfilled the blessing part
and threw away the curse part.

read the previous posts

the blessing part:

god is one, love this one, love all,
and you love god, when your god is one,
you will not find a witness to accuse you,
because one god does not accuse one.

take care.

Psa 119:155 "The wicked have no chance for deliverance, for they do not seek your statutes."

If a person tries to follow God's Law and fails, there is forgiveness available. The alternative would be someone who does not even want to know what the Law is, in the first place.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

wicked means divided
where god is one, there is no wicked,
you are right people fail,
because god allows them to fail.

the law is:

love god with all your heart
(this is gospel and torah)
if god is one, you find god by
care about your other parts.

relgions work with fear
god works with choice.

you think you'll find salvation in scriptures
when they talk about me
me is everything as one
because there is none else.

when god is one,
it means everything in god represents god,
for you, everyone,
the stars were made,
jesus came back from a place that is one,
but that place was made for you,
because you are one,
you have the choice to leave it,
but it's not based on fear, but on love,
and there is no love if there wasn't hate before.

people do not get saved by naming the name jesus,
but by understanding his name as One.
(why do you think he said, you will have done miracles in my name,
but i will not know you, you think salvation comes by the name jesus ?)

they get saved by acting from one..
and the others had their perfect life now.
that's rigteousness and is not based on fear
for hell, because that's spiritual materialism and selfish,
me first, whatever happens to all those
that loose.
when does you heart start to find solutions for all those that
go to hell, find your god, and you will see there is no hell,
and righteousness means rigteousness, not the opposite.

if god is truth, search truth without seeing the all yet
and you are a believer.

jonathan.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

I don't follow your meaning.
It's about choice?
If we are One, then there is one choice, it would seem.
So, in actuality, there is no choice.
Or am I missing something?

you miss something,

dont forget that being one implies free will,
and we do not seem to have that yet

so god has a cross he carries
for himself, his glory

because he is one, it is one cross that is shared,
so we join our cross, or we leave it,
if we leave it we decide to step outside of god

christians teach faith is what saves
they are right,
because faith gives you cross
but it is this as works (intents, struggle)
that balances your judgement.

so what is the cross ?
it is care, when you care, you make mistakes,
but you do not enjoy false peace,
you will hate , and after it you will understand
and that is love, justification of One Life

faith does not mean there is no cross,
it is the cross of being one
honesty always pulls people towards you that
condemn you, and in the end you will
condemn yourself, and when you admit mistakes
you change from left side towards right side
by changing negatives into positives
both in theory as in things and people
all is one.