Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

I seen this movie clip once and it had Jesus and some person quoting scripture to him. And in the clip, it went something like this - The man quotes the scripture and Jesus says "you tell it so well", and then basically says, now let me show you what it means(understanding).

That is the difference. That is what I am talking about.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by badmedia

 

You are seriously putting more confusion into understanding the way you explain yourself. The bible gives understanding, but only to those with their eyes open to the truth. I can read the bible and where it says "hell" and know that it doesn't mean a pit of fire because I have true understanding. You can give a spiritually blind person the complete truth by telling them that hell means death, grave, prison for demons, or refuse pile and not a pit of fire for people to burn in for eternity, but they will not listen because they don't have understanding of the bible. They have understanding of THEIR religion. The bible is a supernatural book of truth. Unless God speaks to you directly the way He spoke to Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Daniel or Joseph, you can't have that level of understanding. If what you claim is true, you are a prophet but I see no truth in that by what I read here by you.

The bible gives no understanding at all. Nor can you give any man any understanding, no matter how much you wish it so. Only the father can give understanding. The bible is merely an expression of the understanding.

And yes, I do know the father. I have been born of spirit, I do not have to be here at all. At the start of my understanding I was asked a single question and let known that I am here by choice.

The father speaking to you directly is a personal relationship with the father. And of course you will deny it in me, as we always deny in others what we ourselves lack. Part of the human condition. As such, I don't blame you for not believing me, I wouldn't believe me either. As it is a personal relationship, it was proven to me, for me, and only me. And even if you did believe me, what good would my personal relationship with the father do for you? None.

The point is to have that relationship with the father, and the fact that you put the bible in place of that tells me that you don't have it. Plain and simple.

Proverbs 8

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

Plain as day right here in what you accept. If you find the father early, he will fill your treasures with understanding and wisdom.

But you replace that with the bible because someone once said it. Why would you settle for less than that? Do you not really believe? You say you accept the bible as "the word of god", but not that part about actually finding and having a personal relationship with him?

From the father comes all my understanding and wisdom. Not once did the father ever tell me to follow the bible or Jesus. But I do not think it coincidence that I seen Jesus and the bible showing the same understanding I learn. When I read Jesus, I see the understanding I was given, and an example of someone following that understanding perfectly.

I do not "accept" Jesus because men or a book tell me too. But I can clearly see and recognize the father I know within him. I read Jesus and I know exactly where his understanding and wisdom came from.

I care nothing about being called a prophet or any such things. I am of no authority, and will reject any that try to put me as such. There is but 1 true authority, and that is the father himself. Anyone or anything else claiming such a position is a lie - including when people say it of the bible.

Matthew 23

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

[edit on 7/17/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Locoman8

NIV
Mathew 5:21
You have heard that it was said to the people long ago “Do not murder and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment” But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment….

The commandment …thou shall not kill…
Has been improved and upgraded but not done away with entirely and has extra added parameters connected to it, so to speak, by Jesus in effect saying…

…thou shall not be angry

Who else can know that we are angry with our brother except the Holy Spirit that dwells within us. This is why the Law has been fulfilled and written on our hearts. Jesus was not as clear about the Sabbath but he did leave us with the following verse

NIV
Mark 3:27
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

Jesus did not say that Man was made for Sabbath but that the Sabbath was made for man. To me this clearly means that Man is more important than the Sabbath. When we honor the “Lord of the Sabbath”/Jesus, through the Holy Spirit we are honoring God every single day.

When the ten commandments were written by God, the main way that people honored God was by making sacrifices or by keeping the Sabbath. After Jesus came and fulfilled the Laws we are now able to have a personal relationship with God. A personal relationship means that we can now honor, worship and speak directly to God at any place, any time and on any day, where as before Jesus came, this was not possible for just anyone to do.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
.

But you replace that with the bible because someone once said it. Why would you settle for less than that? Do you not really believe? You say you accept the bible as "the word of god", but not that part about actually finding and having a personal relationship with him?

From the father comes all my understanding and wisdom. Not once did the father ever tell me to follow the bible or Jesus. But I do not think it coincidence that I seen Jesus and the bible showing the same understanding I learn. When I read Jesus, I see the understanding I was given, and an example of someone following that understanding perfectly.

I do not "accept" Jesus because men or a book tell me too. But I can clearly see and recognize the father I know within him. I read Jesus and I know exactly where his understanding and wisdom came from.

You are absolutely correct it is all about a personal relationship with the father/God. The thing is most of the born again Christians friends that I know, have come to have a relationship with God through first discovering Jesus in the bible and only then receiving the Holy Spirit.

You on the other hand badmedia seem to have done this the other way around I asked you a similar question on another thread but I think you may have missed it…I was wondering how you came to be born of the spirit first, without first hearing or reading the bible or the words of Jesus. I don’t doubt what you are saying is true because I believe the farther/God can reach anyone at any time…I am just curious as to how this happened for you. You don’t have to answer this question if it is too personal.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


I got started in politics really. I studied politics and I started to notice how truly screwed up things were. Like extremely screwed up. I looked out at the world in dismay and was truly saddened. I wondered how can people act towards on another without all this stupid crap going on. I did not trust any man, still don't. And I was questioning even the very fabric of reality - is this stuff real?.

And as I did this, I pretty much came across the commandments and the "path" of Jesus. Made sense to me why they were there. Understood the other side of the tablet after being "born again".

John 14

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

If Jesus is the truth, the way and the light, then is that not what one is seeking if they search for those things?

So I got to the father by seeking the "truth, the way and the light". Which is what Jesus was really saying in that verse. I had a vision of the father, he asked me 1 question - do you want it to end? And a deeper part of me answered back - no, there is still good out there. And then I could see myself riding down the road in a truck continuing on(but I was over it looking down). At that moment I knew the father was within me. I first said it as "I am god an I am arguing with myself". Meaning, I seen the father within me, and I recognized it was in others.

I wasn't dead, near dead and I've never really been seriously injured in my life as far as life threatening. Just sitting on my friends porch looking at the night sky and thinking about things. And it happened all within a blink of an eye here. My consciousness was like pulled somewhere else completely.

That event was followed by about a month of gaining alot of understanding. If I had a question, I was given understanding of it almost immediately. And I would get confirmations in the real world back on the understanding. I would see an example, but in completely random things. It was like "syncronicity", except I now realize it wasn't really that, it just seemed like that as my understanding grew, because all the things were never actually hidden, I just didn't understand things the same.

I disliked the church and organized religon, and I still do. All those who put themselves into such positions of authority are false. The bible is not the word of god, that which I heard is. It's not about acceptance, it's about understanding.

A few months later, I was talking about these things(not here, elsewhere). And I came across a few quotes of things Jesus said. I was absolutely floored at the deep understanding. And it was extremely special for me, because I didn't think anyone understood what I learned at all. But the quote that got me interested in Jesus was John 14:20.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

And I was like wow! And from that point I just kind of picked up the bible and the more I read the more I was wowed. Many people have been nice and when I was say something, they would show me where the bible said the same thing. John 14 pretty much describes my experience completely, and other places as well.

So for me, bible study has been more about seeing how the bible expresses what I already understand, rather than the other. I grew up in the bible belt, I have been to every Christian denominaton except Catholic(they never invited me). They all tried to "save" me, the only bible verse I had memorized was John 3:16 and all that stuff. Nothing ever happened. Read the same words I read now, no meaning, no understanding. No matter how hard I tried to "accept Jesus", nothing happened.

But I reject Paul. I think Paul is the false prophet who leads to the beast of the RCC. While Jesus speaks the understanding I gained, and I see the father in him, I see the exact opposite in Paul. I see everything I was told not to do. I see a Politician(sorcerer in the OT) who misleads people in the name of Jesus. A wolf in sheeps clothing who creates(steals) the peoples authority(matthew 7) and completely anti-christ. He praises Jesus like a Politician praises the flag, and then leads them astray on the principles and teachings just like a politician ignores the constitution. He promises false gifts and turns Jesus into a sacrifice of the truth so that the lie of this world would keep on living, and it did and has.

So that's pretty much the whole story of it. I rejected the church, became atheist. I realized atheism is pretty narrow minded, as it says anything which isn't in my perception is by default false, so became agnostic and said I didn't know. And since I didn't know, I started to seek answers and I found them.

It is a marketing myth that only by "Jesus" physically can one come by the father. It is by searching for those things he represents that one can find it.

So technically I guess I did find Jesus first, just not the bible. But I was shown that such idols like "Jesus" are not the important thing, the father that is speaking through him and doing those things is doing it for a reason, and that reason/purpose is what was important. There is no "ransom", it is about the understanding Jesus gives/brings. Labels are just labels, a rose by any other name still smells the same.

Anyway, here are the verses that describe my experience and dropped my jaws. I still don't consider myself christian, and it's not "Jesus" that I follow, but the father who speaks through him and does those things.

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

If you had told me 3 years ago I'd be saying such things, I'd have told you where to stick it.



[edit on 7/20/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Joecroft


The Sabbath was made for man so we can rest and give time to God. Generalizing and saying you keep everyday as a sabbath by giving time to God is a bit contradictory. God gave this commandment knowing that humans have a busy life. Part of the 4th commandment reads that "Six days you shall labor in your works" which shows that God commanded mankind to work.... to be productive and creative with the resources He gave us. The Sabbath is our spiritual day off from the world. It's more than just honor for God or resting from work. It's rest from the world and spiritual food for the mind when going to Sabbath services. A traditional christian goes to church on sunday morning and is out of church by 11 or 12. maybe goes back for night services around 6 or 7pm. Between these times, most christians just go on doing what they always do. I can go to Wal-Mart on a sunday around lunch time and everybody in their sunday best giving dirty looks at me being in jeans and a tshirt. The Sabbath is our true spiritual day of rest and Jesus knew this and gave us an example by going to every sabbath service and doing God's works on the Sabbath, not the works of the world.

reply to post by badmedia


First thank you badmedia for sharing you story here…
And Apologies Locoman if this has gone a little bit off topic

Originally posted by badmedia

If Jesus is the truth, the way and the light, then is that not what one is seeking if they search for those things?

Well, the way I see that verse is that, the way, represents Jesus life and teachings, the truth, is the words Jesus spoke and the words of the Farther/God spoken through Jesus, and the life, is Jesus acting as a bridge back to the Farther/God, which leads us to eternal life.

Originally posted by badmedia
I disliked the church and organized religon, and I still do. All those who put themselves into such positions of authority are false. The bible is not the word of god, that which I heard is. It's not about acceptance, it's about understanding.

There is some truth in what you say, in that the only word of God in the bible, is what Jesus speaks and what the Farther/God speaks through Jesus. Every thing else is mans interpretation or understanding of what the Farther/God and Jesus are saying. Sometimes mans interpretation is right on the money but other times it is extremely debatable and I guess that is why we have so many denominations of Christianity in the world today.

Originally posted by badmedia
And I was like wow! And from that point I just kind of picked up the bible and the more I read the more I was wowed. Many people have been nice and when I was say something, they would show me where the bible said the same thing. John 14 pretty much describes my experience completely, and other places as well.

So for me, bible study has been more about seeing how the bible expresses what I already understand, rather than the other. I grew up in the bible belt, I have been to every Christian denominaton except Catholic(they never invited me). They all tried to "save" me, the only bible verse I had memorized was John 3:16 and all that stuff. Nothing ever happened. Read the same words I read now, no meaning, no understanding. No matter how hard I tried to "accept Jesus", nothing happened.

I never really had a religious up bringing from my parents but over the last 5 to 7 years or so, I have been constantly bumping into and having random encounters with born again Christians, wherever I went, there they would be lol. It was like “synchronicity” except at the time I wasn’t even aware of the concept of that word and I actually thought they were just following me around lol Most of the time I never really listened to what they had to say and I guess at that time I was agnostic.

About 2 years ago I had another, one of many, random chance meetings with a born again Christian, except this time I decided this was just too much of a coincidence and I decided (this time) to actually listen to what she had to say and I started going to the church and asking many questions. I remember when I first started reading the gospels…I was just blown away by what Jesus was saying but then I would go to the church and they would reel off John 3:16 and tell me I needed to be “saved” otherwise I was going to hell. I was like, wait a minute, cant I just finish reading the bible first and then decide for myself. I have since discovered many things and that there is no such place called hell, and that no one is burning in hell for all eternity and that the “lake of fire” is a place of destruction, not torment. I am still trying to work through a lot of things regarding my faith, I still go to the church but not as much as I used too.

Originally posted by badmedia

It is a marketing myth that only by "Jesus" physically can one come by the father. It is by searching for those things he represents that one can find it.

So technically I guess I did find Jesus first, just not the bible. But I was shown that such idols like "Jesus" are not the important thing, the father that is speaking through him and doing those things is doing it for a reason, and that reason/purpose is what was important. There is no "ransom", it is about the understanding Jesus gives/brings. Labels are just labels, a rose by any other name still smells the same.

By idols like Jesus, do you mean worshiping the cross?

NIV
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many.

What do make of the above verse? What is your understanding of it?

Originally posted by badmedia
Anyway, here are the verses that describe my experience and dropped my jaws. I still don't consider myself christian, and it's not "Jesus" that I follow, but the father who speaks through him and does those things.

How you see things is very different from the main stream view, because in Genesis the line “the word was with God…” is generally accepted to mean, Jesus was with God. So Jesus existed along side God, was created by God and later became flesh, with God also dwelling within him.

The only verse I can think of which might make you think is the following…

NIV
John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no-one who believes in me should stay in darkness.”

Originally posted by badmedia
If you had told me 3 years ago I'd be saying such things, I'd have told you where to stick it.

LOL
If you told me 2 years ago I’d be reading the bible and believing there was a God, I would have thought you were crazy too…


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
Well, the way I see that verse is that, the way, represents Jesus life and teachings, the truth, is the words Jesus spoke and the words of the Farther/God spoken through Jesus, and the life, is Jesus acting as a bridge back to the Farther/God, which leads us to eternal life.

Truth is understanding. Jesus is an example of the understanding and wisdom of the OT. What Jesus speaks is not truth because Jesus speaks it. Jesus is an example of the understanding and wisdom because he speaks the truth.

If Jesus had said other things, it wouldn't have been the truth. Further in that chapter also hints that it is about those things.

John 14
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Now, if you ask Jesus to kill your brother is it going to happen? No. Because it does not fall inline with the truth, the way and the light. But if you ask in the name of those things, or inline with those things, then it will happen.

There is some truth in what you say, in that the only word of God in the bible, is what Jesus speaks and what the Farther/God speaks through Jesus. Every thing else is mans interpretation or understanding of what the Farther/God and Jesus are saying. Sometimes mans interpretation is right on the money but other times it is extremely debatable and I guess that is why we have so many denominations of Christianity in the world today.

Well I understand the concept, but it's still not the actual word of the father. Jesus says let those with ears hear, and with eyes see. The people weren't walking around with no eyes and ears. The words themselves are not the word of god, but the understanding behind them does come from the father and I can see that being likened to the word of god. But the actual words themselves have no meaning if not understood, they are only listened too, not heard.

I think everyone should have their own vision, and it's a personal journey we each have to make. How that happens will vary from person to person.

By idols like Jesus, do you mean worshiping the cross?

NIV
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many.

What do make of the above verse? What is your understanding of it?

I guess I should explain the fundamental differences between me and Christians, and why I consider mainstream Christianity to be the anti-christ/mystery/Babylon religion.

I believe one has to actually follow the commandments. And as Psalm 111:10 say, those who follow the commandments do so from understanding. The commandments were given to men, but there were not understood by men, and the "wicked" were manipulating them and commiting hypocrisy when they killed the man who killed. Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.

Because of this, Jesus was sent in order to show people the correct way to follow the commandments and to give the understanding needed to do so. Where as Christians find salvation in his death, I find it in his life and example. I find that he is to be followed, not worshipped. That he shows a path, a better way and that is to be followed.

His grace is that he is not full of sin and already understands so he does not need to be here. He is not here to learn the differences between good and evil. But he does these things anyway, in order to show people the truth/path. As men are full of sin, he knows they will kill him for speaking the truth and going against the powers of this world(Satan), but he does it anyway. In his death he shows there is nothing to fear, and that it is better to die than to take up evil and defend your own life. So in the end, he actually wins.

But that has been warped by Paul and the church. And it was turned into it being about his death and "sacrifice", rather than his life and mercy. In this way, the truth(Jesus) is being sacrifice so that the lie/Satan of this world could live. And it does, and will until the truth is resurrected and people follow the truth(Jesus/understanding). And this is exactly why they conspired against him - to keep their own power. It is then pushed off as being a "free gift" by Paul, and that all you have to do is "believe" and all is saved without real effort. Of course, this would mean Jesus out right lied to the rich man that he tells to walk the path.

So, a complete rundown. We are in the garden, we eat from the tree of knowledge to know both good and evil. We are removed from the garden, and this planet is quarantined under the rule of evil(to learn evil). In order to make it back, we have to learn the lesson of good vs evil, gain understanding and then make the correct choices/path to get back(wisdom). The people didn't get the commandments, so Jesus fulfills them, brings understanding so that those who believe will walk the path and gain those things to make it back to the garden.

People like Paul put the focus on the idol rather than the understanding and wisdom as a means of blinding the people from them. Rather than walking the path, they are told all men sin, just believe. And then they are able to lead the people down the path of death and destruction, as history has shown. They surround themselves in symbolism(wolves in sheep's clothing) and then the people accept them based on that and do bad things.

Christian views obviously vary, so I'm talking mainstream beliefs in general here.

How you see things is very different from the main stream view, because in Genesis the line “the word was with God…” is generally accepted to mean, Jesus was with God. So Jesus existed along side God, was created by God and later became flesh, with God also dwelling within him.

The only verse I can think of which might make you think is the following…

The word is that which makes creation. It is logic. Creation is just a program, and programs are created by words/logic. "Jesus" is just a vessel/soul, it is the father(god) within that did those things, he was not the "word".

NIV
John 12:44
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no-one who believes in me should stay in darkness.”

So, does one worship a lighthouse, or does one follow the lighthouse in order to find the path/way? He says in John 14 what it means to believe in him.

John 14

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Notice he says believe he is in the father, or else believe for the very works sake. Believing for the very works sake means you can still follow his path/way without believing all the stuff about the father. It is the least one can do, and as such should be the minimum all do. Jesus is not supposed to be the exception, he is supposed to be the norm.

Oh, last supper? Does this sound familiar? The flesh and blood is symbolic or wisdom and understanding.

Proverbs 9

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Notice the building of houses and what it's talking about. The real church is built within, out of wisdom and knowledge. Not a physical building - although nothing wrong with people gathering to discuss and such to help build your church, just isn't what he meant and he was not founding a physical church/religion with peter.

I can keep going. As far as Christians, I am in agreement with the gnostics more than the others. They were persecuted by the church and have been, just as Jesus said those who truly believed would be, not the ones who persecute.

Google Video Link

reply to post by badmedia

I believe one has to actually follow the commandments. And as Psalm 111:10 say, those who follow the commandments do so from understanding. The commandments were given to men, but there were not understood by men, and the "wicked" were manipulating them and commiting hypocrisy when they killed the man who killed. Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.

Because of this, Jesus was sent in order to show people the correct way to follow the commandments and to give the understanding needed to do so. Where as Christians find salvation in his death, I find it in his life and example. I find that he is to be followed, not worshipped. That he shows a path, a better way and that is to be followed.

That is an extremely true statement. However, following the commandments also involves the 4th commandment, which you seem to underplay just like most christians do. Did you not read my last post? There was so much more to the Sabbath than just worshipping God and resting. Don't follow 9 and undermind 1 commandment. Jesus sayd "If you break the least of the commandments and teach men so, you shall be considered least in the Kingdom of Heaven."

I also agree with the statement of not worshipping Jesus. The cross is considered idolatry if it's used in assistance to prayer. The image of a long haired, petite, feminine Jesus is idolatry and false. He was considered to be an average looking Jew of His time. If you use this fact, He would have short hair. He would be very muscular and sun-tanned or burnt due to His carpentry work and vast amounts of walking from town to town in His ministry. I find His life to be an example of how all christains should live. However, His death was the one event that allowed all humans to come to God and find salvation. He was the sacrificial Lamb of Passover. He died on the day of Passover, also known as the day of preparation.... the day before the "high day Sabbath" or first day of Unleavened Bread. Through His death, the Jewish Levitical system was fulfilled and Jesus took His place in heaven as our permanent High Priest. That's why you find salvation in His death. I feel both aspects, His life and death, should be considered for salvation. Recognize and try to follow the life He lived, and recognize the role He fills as the resurrected Son of God.

reply to post by Locoman8


I doubt that Jesus was just average looking, because he had perfect genetics, he was also a perfect human. That means his immune system would minimize any sickness that went around, he was probably never sick a day in his life. Perfection also means you never cause yourself harm by accidents, such as a carpenter hitting his thumb with a hammer.

The pictures where Christendom shows Jesus as a thin weak person are wrong for sure.

The son of God would have been good looking and strong, but he was limited to the perfect but yet natural abilities of his human body, thus he did get tired.

reply to post by Locoman8


His death represents the death of truth on earth, which is why he was conspired against. Because that truth threatened the powers of the time. In order to keep their power, they killed the truth so that their lie could continue to live.

That is the salvation of the lie. It is to say that the truth had to die in order for people to live, and I just can't agree with that at all.

The truth didn't need to die to save men. It died because of men who live and accept the lie. It was literally the "sin of men" that killed him. If men didn't sin, then he wouldn't have been killed.

But in his actions, he shows people the way. That it is better to die than to take up the sword and become evil yourself. He tells people not to try and save themselves, that to save themselves is to die - because they will be committing evil. And then he backs that up and shows it.

The entire thing and the worship of his death is Satanic. People walk around with crosses, and that is the tool that was used to murder him. It's all wrong.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Looks do not determine "perfection" at all. He was perfect because he didn't commit sin, what he looks like and such doesn't matter at all.

reply to post by badmedia

The entire thing and the worship of his death is Satanic.

Worhiping things or events is not right. Even worshiping the Sabbath is wrong. God is to be worshiped.
The thing is, the beast is at work today, just as it was in the time of Jesus. It has all kinds of ways to distract people, one for for everybody. Kiss the cross or kiss the foot of the Pope or kiss the book.
An example might be Code Pink. Foundation funded and not an authentic grass roots movement. Once the "evil" Republicans are out of office, it goes away while the Democrats do the same war mongering the Republicans were guilty of.
The Sunday worship is being advanced by a "movement" funded by the beast by appearing to do away with traditional Sundays off. (this is going on in France right now) Once it makes enough noise and gets people's attention, another "movement" will come to play as an apparent backlash to the Sunday work "movement" and will demand a "Sunday Protection" law, thus turning a tradition of having Sunday off, into a legally recognized enforced Sunday of no work.
This will happen, one way or another, that there will eventually be a universal forced observance of the counterfeit "Sabbath" of the beast. This is where the patience of the Saints comes into play. Where once the sabbath was not of much concern, it will be put into the forefront of every one's lives where it can not be avoided. Then is the time to say no to man made laws and to remember God's law. It will come down to where no one can any longer remain neutral to this thing that has been long neglected or ignored. Will you adopt this thing that the beast boasts as its mark of authority over God's Law? Will you take the mark?


[edit on 21-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Please stop with the scare tactics. I have little or no use for such things.

I'll put it right up there with people claiming every religion that isn't Christian is the "anti-christ" religion. These are simply red-herrings.

If anything, the time to push such a Sunday worship would have been years ago. It's moving further away from such things, not towards them.

None of that stuff is going to happen. It's like the gay marriage issue. It's just thrown out there for political gain as a means of polarizing people into action and reaction where they are more easily controlled and to hide the real issues from the light of day.

I don't think you understand how real deception works. If any of those things happen, it will simply be to polarize you into supporting "your way", of which will be attached to many other things. No different than the republicans/democrats using the gay marriage issue for political gain.

Your post makes me want to puke honestly. The prophecies have almost all been done. The forcing of Sunday worship - already been done, 100's of years ago.




[edit on 7/21/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Please stop with the scare tactics. I have little or no use for such things.

Why else discus anything about religion at all unless there are scarry consequinces to being wrong about it?

I'll put it right up there with people claiming every religion that isn't Christian is the "anti-christ" religion. These are simply red-herrings.

To divert attention away from what?

If anything, the time to push such a Sunday worship would have been years ago. It's moving further away from such things, not towards them.

How's that?

None of that stuff is going to happen. It's like the gay marriage issue. It's just thrown out there for political gain as a means of polarizing people into action and reaction where they are more easily controlled and to hide the real issues from the light of day.

What would be this control you are talking about? Polarizing people? Do you think the pro-Seventh day people are going to go on rampages to beat up the pro-Sunday people? I don't think so. The force at work to make a polarization is the beast. That is going to have an affect on everyone. Is my posts going to do that? I don't think so. I am saying the polarizing is coming, not from any of my doing but by Satan's doing, whether you like it or not.

I don't think you understand how real deception works. If any of those things happen, it will simply be to polarize you into supporting "your way", of which will be attached to many other things. No different than the republicans/democrats using the gay marriage issue for political gain.

My way? Am I going to go march in the streets to enforce my favorite day over someone else's day? No. I don't care if someone else wants to keep their day. I just do not want them to use force to make me keep theirs.

Your post makes me want to puke honestly. The prophecies have almost all been done. The forcing of Sunday worship - already been done, 100's of years ago.

Buck up boy. Don't wimp out. Hundreds of years ago is what we are going back into, only worse, with lots of better weapons to be used against the non-compliant. What do you think the deception is? Someone like me raining on your parade to the promised land where everything is sweetness and light?


[edit on 21-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Why else discus anything about religion at all unless there are scarry consequinces to being wrong about it?

Because you are searching for truth, and what is right. IMO, any reason less than that is in vein.

To divert attention away from what?

Anything that is actually important. To keep people from looking at themselves, and focused on blaming or calling others the problem.

How's that?

What do you mean how is that? It use to be that most all businesses closed on Sunday. The church used to rule over the land and everyone went to church on Sunday and so forth.

What would be this control you are talking about? Polarizing people? Do you think the pro-Seventh day people are going to go on rampages to beat up the pro-Sunday people? I don't think so. The force at work to make a polarization is the beast. That is going to have an affect on everyone. Is my posts going to do that? I don't think so. I am saying the polarizing is coming, not from any of my doing but by Satan's doing, whether you like it or not.

No, I don't think it's ever going to be a real issue. Just like gay marriage isn't a real issue. It's just a way of playing people on their biases.

If someone comes along and forces Saturday, are you going to change your mind? Is that ok?

My way? Am I going to go march in the streets to enforce my favorite day over someone else's day? No. I don't care if someone else wants to keep their day. I just do not want them to use force to make me keep theirs.

Right, well maybe it should actually happen that it's forced on you before you go all dogmatic crazy on me, and then ask me if I'm going to take the mark and all this other crap.

As soon as you are pressed, you get into dogma and it's disgusting.

Buck up boy. Don't wimp out. Hundreds of years ago is what we are going back into, only worse, with lots of better weapons to be used against the non-compliant. What do you think the deception is? Someone like me raining on your parade to the promised land where everything is sweetness and light?

No, you relying on fear rather than understanding is disgusting and makes me sick. That you try to create a situation where people choose out of fear, rather than love and understanding is sickening.

Your bible specifically states over and over to go in the way of understanding, not to accept the wicked. It's the entire reason I like it. It says that those who keep the commandments do so out of understanding, but you give me dogma instead. That is not the way of the father, that is the way you have picked up from this world, and from men.

reply to post by badmedia

Your bible specifically states over and over to go in the way of understanding, not to accept the wicked. It's the entire reason I like it. It says that those who keep the commandments do so out of understanding, but you give me dogma instead. That is not the way of the father, that is the way you have picked up from this world, and from men.

So is it dogma to state what the commandments actually are?
I am not too surprised that you feel that way, it is very typical. You might imagine yourself as being independent but you go right along with the main flow, as far as the Law is concerned. It's fine and we think it is great, just as long as it is not too specific or might actually demand me to make any practical changes in my life. Then it is rebellion.
I am not trying to force you or anyone else to change the way you feel about the law. What I want to do is point out something that should be looked into and examined, if even for an objective fact finding exercise. Then when you see the things coming that I am talking about, you can bring up the memory of what you found earlier, when there was not a crises and you could absorb it well into your mind. That will be a tool you can use to make a determination about what you want to do about the situation you find yourself in. The mind control tactics put into place are going to be a strong deception and will not allow you to make this calm study, that you can do now.
I am not trying to have you make a decision right now, but to do what is a prudent preparation for being able to make a good decision in the future. And I am not picking on you specifically, but I say this for the sake of anyone who might read this. I am not forcing the issue. Do you think it is safe to ignore the statements from the Pope, who says that mandatory Sunday observance is number one on his agenda for his papacy? Do you think his reign as Pope is going to go down as a failure?


[edit on 21-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
So is it dogma to state what the commandments actually are?

That isn't what you did at all. I know very well what the book states. I have merely asked for the understanding behind it. I can see much understanding for needing time to seek things bigger than the farm, a day off, a day of rest and so forth. I can completely understand that.

The specific days of the week is not understanding. Arguing over saturday and sunday is not understanding. Even if they did want to force Sunday, that doesn't make you right.

And because you can not give understanding, you resorted to fear and dogma. And that is disgusting and I have no need for it - it's not valid.

If there is one thing there is no shortage of around here, it's people trying to say what is going to happen in the future.

Look here, look there! Be afraid, be afraid!



[edit on 7/21/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


I just can't help it when I see people like you spouting about the commandments but so easily "spiritualize" a literal law of God into a way that is not defined just so you can follow it in a more free form. God gave true understanding through His prophets and patriarchs in the old testament. God said to "hollow" the 7th day and that this one specific day was His Sabbath of Rest. You say "as long as you find time for God and rest sometime in the week it's okay." It's like saying that killing someone in cold blood is murder but killing an innocent bystand in war is an accident when in fact you're at war to kill people that our government doesn't like. It's still takeing a life either way you look at it. Even Jesus said that anger is considered murder. So to take a commandment away.... at least the specifics of it is like killing an innocent bystand by accident even though you were there to kill anyways. You shot the specifics but intend to follow the "idea" behind it.

Specifics of the Sabbath:
God sanctified the 7th day and rested on this day from creation. He made this day holy. Only one day did God make holy every week. The 7th day of every week. That's 52 holy days in the year. Include the yearly or high day sabbaths, you have 59 days out of the year in which God wanted us to take time away from worldly things and just concentrate on Him and His intent to brink His kingdom on earth. God also said that His people would be identified by the worship of Him on the 7th day. This is where JWDewey is coming in and explaining how the 1st day, when forced on you, is considered the mark. I think that is partly what the mark is, but also believe there is so much more to the mark.

reply to post by Locoman8


Right, but the only reason you can give me is because god said so. Neither of you can give understanding on it, outside to just repeat the law itself which I already know about.

Well, the father has never told me it was so. Only man has. And the entire thing of being forced to worship on Sunday isn't even true. It was true in the past, but yet it's been moving away from that.

If the father wanted me to keep any such days he would have told me so. He did not, and so I do not. Not Sunday, not Saturday not any day.

It makes no sense. How do you even know you are on the correct days if it's so important? What if what you think is Saturday is actually Tuesday? How do leap years work into this?

Anyway, I'd say it's pointless to continue. If you can not show me the understanding, then I'm not going to accept it no matter how many times you tell me it's what the bible says, and no matter how much fear one tries to put in me. I always follow the path of understanding.

reply to post by badmedia


The only understanding I can give you is biblical because I believe the bible is our christian checklist. The purpose of the Sabbath is understood, at least in part by most people. Why worship and rest on the 7th day? Because God said so, just like you said. Why do we rest? To rest from worldly things and give that day to God for worship. Why the 7th day? Because He created in the first 6 days and rested on the 7th. Every 7th day is a memorial of creation and what God did for us. I do it because God said so, but I also do it because I know the spiritual meaning behind the Sabbath. 1 day in heaven is 1000 years on earth according to the bible. Man's rule on earth is a 6000 year labor for humanity. When Jesus returns at the end of the 6000 years, He will usher in a 7th mellenium of peace and REST. It is our Sabbath mellenium. That is the spiritual meaning behind resting on the 7th day.