Former Fundamentalist 'Debunks' Bible

reply to post by evil incarnate


Okay disagree with it.

I haven't said one way or another about what I thought about the quote, so why are you replying to me?

I think anyone who says that they know for sure their way of thinking is correct are idiots.

The Bible is a fictional book that consists of metaphors. In the end, it's all about being a good person and doing what's right.

However, some individuals really do believe there's a God and believe some guy named Jesus really rose from the dead.

Oh and a senior citizen gathered a bunch of animals on a boat.

It's a fictional book folks. Grow up.

reply to post by GorehoundLarry


Prove that there isn't a God. Show me your irrefutable, absolute proof.

Or do you fit into the crowd that I described in my above post?

reply to post by GorehoundLarry


epic of gilgamesh tells the same flood event.
and there's indication that gilgamesh was a real individual:

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Gilgamesh tomb believed found
news.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by undo


Which, to me, suggests that all these stories are borrowed from older cultures and religions. It's why these epics while keep repeating in all sorts of places around the world, all have dates ranging over thousands of years.

reply to post by undo


Well, my analysis goes back to about 1350-1200BC with the exile of Moses from Egypt. It would be possible for us to go further, but it doesn't seem to me to be too relevant.

Aten, the sun, seems to by Yahweh, and I'm sure an Egyptologist can tell you the origins of this god, however I'm not a massive buff on Ancient Egypt, so I'll let someone else pick that one up for you.

If you find any holes in my historical knowledge of these religions and their contemporary civilizations, let me know!

Originally posted by KOGDOG
Yahweh lived this life as one of us.

You can't make a solid statement about an entity that is likely entirely fictional.

You could say "According to the Bible, Yahweh lived this life as one of us" and it would make more sense to quantify that it was Jesus Christ in which he manifested himself, if you believe that kind of thing.

Personally I think that if someone was kicking around doing miracles left, right and center, then there'd be a wealth of recorded information - the Romans were utterly anal about it.

Originally posted by KOGDOGWell thought out atheistic perspective of life on Planet Weasel.

Well, ultimately, I have literally just presented the facts. Anything unprovable, speculative or supernatural has been left out, and when you leave these things out, you can see just why the socio-political environments would spawn such religions. They aren't some kind of coincidence, they are an inevitability.

Originally posted by KOGDOGYour "well thought out arguments" are only valid if we truly are "hairless monkeys who make pretty good tools".

Well, anthropologically we are...so I assume this is a thinly-veiled criticism of evolution - so why not just say "but I don't believe evolution is correct"?

If it helps, we certainly didn't evolve on any African savannah. Perhaps an African swamp, but certainly not a savannah. That's even less appealing though, isn't it? The first humans effectively being a bunch of swamp monkeys?

Originally posted by KOGDOGBut... yeah... a very insightful socio-political analysis of history and the "God's of Men".

Unfortunately not all is what it appears to be.

Thank you, but if you have some verifiable information that I am lacking, or even some educated speculation on other historical connections to what I have written, please let me know.

However, I'm not really interested in blind faith, so if that is all you have to offer, I will politely decline.

reply to post by Welfhard


they are talking about the same event. ever hear of oral histories?
an oral history is fastidiously maintained within a tribal culture and passed on generationally. the only thing that really changes are the decorative bits and the language.

reply to post by undo


so a 6000 year old story is talking about the same event as the story we have now explaining events from 2000 years ago as well as saying time began 6000 years ago when other people were already telling stories? I fail to see how they are all discussing the same event rather than stealing from one another. Maybe that is just me.

reply to post by undo


But of course. My point is that one story gets picked up by another culture and the story spreads. I have every reason to believe that a flood occurred somewhere at sometime that inspired the original legend, that seems perfectly reasonable. But with consecutive retelling over generations and generations and centuries, errors and alterations get compounded as people keep embellishing the story.

It's the same thing effectively as Chinese whispers, although the major details may make it through, small details of things like the area flooded, number of people involved, where, when, etc. change with time.

It's remarkable that the epic of Gilgamesh and Noah's flood are so similar.

[edit on 16-5-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by GorehoundLarry

 

epic of gilgamesh tells the same flood event.
and there's indication that gilgamesh was a real individual:

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Gilgamesh tomb believed found
news.bbc.co.uk...

Yes indeed. The Jews gained the Sumerian mythological history from the Babylonian Exile, whereupon they adapted it by making the plural Elohim singular, removing the other gods or relegating them to angel status, and pretty much whole-sale stole their entire cosmology and world view. The flood, the creation of the earth, pretty much the whole lot.

My personal favourite is Moses' birth, and his placement in a reed basket covered in pitch and floated down a river.

It's strangely reminiscent (read: blatantly a rip-off) of the earliest emperor we know of, Sargon of Akkad. It is literally almost word-for-word.

But then, I suppose everyone tries to associate themselves with greatness.

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by GorehoundLarry

 

Prove that there isn't a God. Show me your irrefutable, absolute proof.

Or do you fit into the crowd that I described in my above post?

The atheist is not making any positive claims -- the theist is. Therefore, by rule of logic, the burden of proof is on you. It is impossible to prove any nonexistence claim. Atheist aren't saying there is no god period....in reality what they are saying is I have no proof of a god, therefore there isn't one. If theists provided real proof/evidence other then just faith, you'd have a hell of a recruiting tool and there would be no atheists.

The best proof an atheist or agnostic have is that theist have no proof. You are making the claim....you must provide the evidence......can you not see that?

Now...you prove that to me that Zeus and all other deities other then the Christian "God" don't exist. Infact I'd like proof that pixies don't exist as well cause I've seen them in the garden gathering nectar.


We all believe what makes us feel most comfortable about our place in this crazy world.......

Originally posted by Connector

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by GorehoundLarry

 

Prove that there isn't a God. Show me your irrefutable, absolute proof.

Or do you fit into the crowd that I described in my above post?

The atheist is not making any positive claims -- the theist is. Therefore, by rule of logic, the burden of proof is on you. It is impossible to prove any nonexistence claim. Atheist aren't saying there is no god period....in reality what they are saying is I have no proof of a god, therefore there isn't one. If theists provided real proof/evidence other then just faith, you'd have a hell of a recruiting tool and there would be no atheists.

The best proof an atheist or agnostic have is that theist have no proof. You are making the claim....you must provide the evidence......can you not see that?

Now...you prove that to me that Zeus and all other deities other then the Christian "God" don't exist. Infact I'd like proof that pixies don't exist as well cause I've seen them in the garden gathering nectar.


We all believe what makes us feel most comfortable about our place in this crazy world.......

I do hope we get to the Sentient Puddle argument at some point in this debate!

reply to post by Connector

Infact I'd like proof that pixies don't exist as well cause I've seen them in the garden gathering nectar.

Pixies exist! I am not entirely sure about Santa Clause (I always end up falling asleep before the sun comes up, one of these years I am not going to spike the egg nog), I know the Easter Bunny exists because I see lots of silly rabbits, I am not quite sure where they get the paint for those pretty eggs they make?

Now G-d? That's another question...haven't seen hide nor tail of that one!

why are you saying "the jews" as if the semites of the area were somehow not supposed to even be there? the reason the story is the same or darn close to the same is because they were there. ya can't steal your own history. the problem appears to be the idea that a book written in babylon is not as valid as another wrote in akkad (there were no flood texts in sumer because sumer was buried by the flood, about 8 ft of flood silt, to be exact).

here's a series that discusses how two geologists discovered the black sea flood is probably the flood of the epic of gilgamesh, atrahasis and the biblical flood







my favorite part is the end where the guy is asked how he knows how much water was flooding over the gap.

I’m surprised that in this time there is even a need to debunk the bible. The bible is complete mythology that conflicts with history, science, and human nature. The bible has never been validated, hence the need for “faith”.

Again, like I said in another article, there is no historic proof that backs up this guy's claim. I think most people know that the Bible was written by man...I don't really see how that makes it a forgery? I also again, don't know of any historical evidence that they are "fake," since we know from historical records that they are from oral traditions.

reply to post by GorehoundLarry


i tend to agree with you that it consists of metaphors and in the end its about being a good person. this is the reason why i stopped attending church. i think the bible has been translated and taken out of context so many times that what it originally said is not comparable with what we are left with today.

Originally posted by BrainPower
reply to post by GorehoundLarry

 

i tend to agree with you that it consists of metaphors and in the end its about being a good person. this is the reason why i stopped attending church. i think the bible has been translated and taken out of context so many times that what it originally said is not comparable with what we are left with today.

Yeah, because you can't possibly look at the original texts written on papyrus or anything.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by undo

 

Which, to me, suggests that all these stories are borrowed from older cultures and religions. It's why these epics while keep repeating in all sorts of places around the world, all have dates ranging over thousands of years.

totally! i keep reading about all these different ancient cultures with different ideas about religion that ALL have versions of the flood story. judiasm popped up around the same time as monotheism in egypt and it seems that a lot of the tales in judiasm have parallels to egyptian tales and sumerian tales. it could very well be that the entire religion that christianity is based off of was brought about from a collection of different tales of neighboring peoples.

I've been reading a lot about the old testament lately and about jesus and in older religions, the people actually interacted with the "gods" that descended from the heavens, who's to say that these gods aren't actually extraterrestrials and the whole of the bible is out of context. if certain things like the Talmud of Jmmanuel can be proved to be authentic that would certainly help to put things into context. I'm interested to hear everyone else's theories on this subject.