Jehovah's Witnesses Christian or Cult?

reply to post by jmdewey60


This is obviously a huge cult that has twisted the scriptures.They spread nothing but lies.

reply to post by dthwraith


I am not a Jehovas Witness but my beliefs are quite similar. Like JW's I don't celebrate former Pagan holidays adopted by the catholics and carried into protestantism such as christmas (saturnalia) and easter (Ishtar). I follow the teachings of Christ through a teacher of the early 20th century by the name of Herbert W. Armstrong. This man founded the Radio Church of God which later became known as the Worldwide Church of God. This sect or cult of christianity came from a simple question that Armstrong's wife asked him. She was a member of the 7th Day Church of God when they met. She simply asked him, "where does it say in the bible that the sabbath was changed to sunday?" He was so hard set on proving his wife wrong but never found a scripture stateing that Jesus or Paul changed the day of worship from saturday to sunday. From there on, Armstrong set out to debunk much of modern christianity's heresey and false doctrine to lead a church into a first-century based church doctrine that follows to it's best ability every word of the bible. After Armstrong died, the Worldwide Church of God leaders decided to turn the organization mainstream. In doing so, most of the members broke away and started their own sect of Armstrong's church. Of these splinter groups, the United Church of God is the largest and most well-known in today's society. The Living Church of God is another notable church. Like the JW's these churches have a council of elders, most of whom were ordained through Christ by Armstrong. They became elders by merit. These churches keep the sabbath from friday sundown to saturday sundown. They follow the 7 holy day feasts which Jesus and the first century church all kept. They believe in full conversion and not just asking for forgiveness and believing. Repent, water baptism, holy spirit baptism, 1st resurrection. They believe in the preaching of the true Gospel of the Kingdom which will be here on earth. They believe in two resurrections, the 1st being the resurrection of the saints (post tribulation rapture+resurrection) and the 2nd being the resurrection to judgement, in which not all will be cast into the lake of fire, only the non-repentant at judgement. We believe that this time on earth is only meant for a select few to take part in the first resurrection. Those resurrected will be kings and priests in the Kingdom of God while some live on in their flesh after the tribulation. We follow the truth about Hell in the bible in which no one suffers for eternity in a pit of fire. The lake of fire is known as the second death. The soul that sins shall die. We also believe body and soul are not separate. When the body dies, the soul does to. Soul simply means "life" or "breath". I'll stop for now and see what kind of heat you bring to me.

reply to post by kleah


OH REALLY????????? would you like to share your theological beliefs?????

First of all, this thread is asking for opinions, if we think JW's are a cult and my opinion is no. I am entitled to my opinion. I don't follow or endorse any organizations dogma and I'm not pointing my pointy finger at the Catholics in an attempt to take the heat off of the group that was asked about.


I've encountered Miriam before and she proves my point well.Lol The first thing she did was throw some scripture at me (which doesn't quite match mine by the way) and offered up her own interpretation of what she considers door to door to mean. Then blujay comes along and pats her on the back for it.

I dealt with JW's for over a year coming to my door. Out of all those times, that I answered the door, not once did they greet me with the good news and ask me to repent - quite the contrary - they would always open their bible and ask me if they could show me something, read me a bible verse and then want to discuss it. When it came to me giving my opinion - my opinion wasn't valid because their dogma wouldn't allow it.

Though I'm inclined to - I'm not going to rebut Miriam's "quoted" scriptures with my own, so this thread is bogged down with interpretation v's opinions. We CAN give opnions and talk from our hearts without deflecting away from what this thread is about.

With that being said, what I will say to Miriam and those that pat her on the back for her interpretations is the day a group of JW's come to my town, wearing sandals and ask to stay in my house because they want to heal people instead of debating various interpretations - a big smile willl appear on my face and I'll tell them "come on in and stay as long as you like."

The Spirit, water and blood are in agreement and witness to the truth - this is how Jesus knows his own. He will tell many one day "I never knew you." Interpretation is for the birds (no pun intended) and knowing is everything.

So basically let's agree to disagree.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Locoman8

Armstrong set out to debunk much of modern christianity's heresey and false doctrine to lead a church into a first-century based church doctrine that follows to it's best ability every word of the bible.

This is intellectual honesty. There have always been people that have the intellectual honesty and emotional strength to break free from the lies propagated by the Apostasy Jesus foretold.

There have always been lovers of truth
People like "Armstrong" &"Russell", John Wycliffe, William Tyndale

Some other men who broke with church dogma within the last 150 years
George W. Stetson - Pastor, Advent Christian Church
George Storrs- Publisher of "The Bible Examiner"
Nelson H. Barbour - Publisher of "Herald of the Morning"

These men are Heretics to the dogmatically challenged who don't understand the bible, but they are real hero's to me, they didn't let the mainstream clergy cloud there ability to research and understand the bible.

At least at some basic level all of these men were able to break free from the embedded apostasy that Jesus prophesied about. Further what's really interesting is that it was prophesied that the real truth of these things would not be known until the end days approached anyway, further validating them understanding the bible in a correct way.

Daniel 12 verses 4&9,10

4But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God's purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.

9And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.
10Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be tried, smelted, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the teachers and those who are wise shall understand.

A powerful scripture that tells us why some get it, and others don't, nor will they ever. Also that true enlightenment of scripture could not be had until "the time of the end".

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Everyone stay on topic please or I will ask the MOD to remove posts.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

There have always been lovers of truth
People like "Armstrong" &"Russell", John Wycliffe, William Tyndale

Some other men who broke with church dogma within the last 150 years
George W. Stetson - Pastor, Advent Christian Church
George Storrs- Publisher of "The Bible Examiner"
Nelson H. Barbour - Publisher of "Herald of the Morning"

People like these are ok, but when John Darby came up with the rapture and the scripture to back it up he's a nut job, he teaches false doctrine, and it can't be true because he's a man. JW's do the same thing but thats over looked. Sounds like a double standard to me.

Back to topic. the Bible warns us about false prophets. The JW's SEEM to be very good at this.

FALSE PROPHECYING (Deuteronomy 18:20-22): While proclaiming to be “God’s Prophet” and speaking “in the name of Jehovah,” the Watchtower announced several false dates for the end of the world and even proclaimed that Christ’s presence had began in 1874. This false proclamation of Christ’s presence is the precise warning that Jesus gave to His followers when He said that “false prophets” would proclaim this in the last days! (See Matthew 24:11, 23-24) Why would Jehovah appoint a group to represent Him that was doing the very thing Jesus warned “false prophets” would do in the last days?

Here is a list of very long and false prophetic dates.
False dates
IF JW's are prophets of God as the claim to be whats the deal with all the mistakes? If you look at the prophets in the Bible the things they proclaim have come to pass. Aside from end times, but alot of those are now coming to pass.

What does the Bible say about false teachers? Nothing nice thats for shure.

We’ll start with James 3:1 .

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Peter 2:1-3 says:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

John wrote,
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

And Paul warned,
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (2 Cor. 11:13-15)

I believe it’s possible for any believer to be honestly mistaken is his or her interpretation of a passage, but when someone in a pastoral/teaching teaching position wilfully promotes false doctrine that disputes or denies the veracity of Scripture, it proves that they were never saved to begin with (1 John 2:19) and are in fact representing Satan (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
I've encountered Miriam before and she proves my point well.Lol The first thing she did was throw some scripture at me (which doesn't quite match mine by the way) and offered up her own interpretation of what she considers door to door to mean. Then blujay comes along and pats her on the back for it.

you say that like using the bible is a bad thing.

consider this, the topic of whether this group is a cult or christian comes up and the first thing you do is try to show how they get it wrong. which is fine, your right everyone has a right their opinion. and if you had left it at "i disagree with them" then i probably wouldnt have said anything

but then you say -

"When Jesus said to witness he did not mean to go door to door or thread to thread offering up interpretations. Witnessing is about personal experience and because of the Bible"

now you are trying to use the bible to prove you point by referring to jesus.this is a different matter because frankly, when one uses the bible (and specifically jesus), the above statement is simply not true.

the real problem is, you dont have any really scripture to back your claim up since both jesus and the apostle were KNOWN for being evangelists. they were known for preaching door to door and in public places, and not just about experiences, but also proving jesus was the christ, teaching about salvation, about god.

now if you disagree with that, fine, but dont say that the spirit testifies to your statements as truth because they blatantly contradict the bible.

what bothers me the most is that what the apostles did and what the first century christians did JW's are doing now. and ironically people hate them for it.

Originally posted by dthwraith
the Bible warns us about false prophets. The JW's SEEM to be very good at this.

FALSE PROPHECYING (Deuteronomy 18:20-22): While proclaiming to be “God’s Prophet” and speaking “in the name of Jehovah,” the Watchtower announced several false dates for the end of the world and even proclaimed that Christ’s presence had began in 1874. This false proclamation of Christ’s presence is the precise warning that Jesus gave to His followers when He said that “false prophets” would proclaim this in the last days! (See Matthew 24:11, 23-24) Why would Jehovah appoint a group to represent Him that was doing the very thing Jesus warned “false prophets” would do in the last days?

Here is a list of very long and false prophetic dates.
False dates
IF JW's are prophets of God as the claim to be whats the deal with all the mistakes? If you look at the prophets in the Bible the things they proclaim have come to pass. Aside from end times, but alot of those are now coming to pass.

i have never seen in any publication of theres that i have read that they claim to be god's prophets. ever.

second, if you actually read the website you posted, most of the accounts are either

- speculation "To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation. There are hundreds of millions of persons living now that were living in 1914, and many millions of these persons could yet live a score or more years. Just when the lives of the majority of them will be cut short by Armageddon we cannot say.""

- general calculation "Other Bible prophecies confirm that this would occur during the last days of the wicked system. That is where we are, in the conclusion of the system of things."

- or incomplete guessing "Applying the same rule then, of a day for a year, 1335 days after 539 A.D. brings us to 1874 A.D. at which time, according to Biblical chronology, the Lord's second presence was due."

nothing in their publications claim that the governing body is infallible. in fact, ive read articles on changes in beliefs, they they always use the same scriptures. prov 4:[18] But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

I believe it’s possible for any believer to be honestly mistaken is his or her interpretation of a passage, but when someone in a pastoral/teaching teaching position wilfully promotes false doctrine that disputes or denies the veracity of Scripture, it proves that they were never saved to begin with (1 John 2:19) and are in fact representing Satan (2 Cor. 11:13-15).

JW's dont deny scripture, they embrace it.

if you have ever studied with them, you would see that. there publications are covered in quotes and cited scriptures.

not only that, but toñi, the sister that studies with me said on the first study that i should compare whats being said in the book with the bible, and that i should never take her word for it.

does that sound like a person who twists scriptures?

Originally posted by kleah
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

This is obviously a huge cult that has twisted the scriptures.They spread nothing but lies.

Welcome and thank you for coming over to Faith and Theology.
I am a serious cultist and do not have a problem with it. We were persecuted by the State and were murdered wholesale and had bounties on our heads to be taken into the Colosseum to have our deaths used for entertainment. Our leader was the man, Jesus Christ. We are dangerous enemies to the State and have to be dealt with with a firm hand. The State cult of the worship of the latest dictator can not tolerate competition. Lucky for us our cult leader's death did not mean the end of our cult and it has survived for two thousand years.
I hope you will stand up for all the members of the greater cult. Though we will disagree on the fine points of theology we do have a common belief that binds us together. Jesus died for our salvation. By this one belief, we can all be members. The counter cult of Satan is upon us and has great fury and is intent on crushing its opposition. It is not numerous enough to do it on its own so it is asking for help to destroy unity within the Christ cult.

Edited to remove redundancy.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by dthwraith


"False Prophets".....sorry, but although this is a favorite one to bring up among JW's haters, it's without grounds, and an argument supported by cherry picked quotes from literature, without giving the whole context. It really is a tired and played out argument, but anyway... here we go:

EDITED to remove external source and add link to external source for my response to the "false prophet" accusation:

Are Jehovah's Witnesses "false prophets"?


[edit on 15-5-2009 by holywar]

[edit on 15-5-2009 by holywar]

holy war - paragraphes, please. its so hard to read.

reply to post by holywar

They seem inoculated with madness, Satanic hydrophobia [rabies]...

I really do not think trying to defend these people helps your cause.
Some people back in the day got caught up in an advent movement and tryed to go somewhere with it. That's nice but it is better to move on and try to stand on your own. Trying to use these people to reinforce your beliefs is a loosing proposition and would only add to people's conception of a cult.


[edit on 15-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Thanks everyone for moving back onto topic. I have to leave so I'll read over all your coments when I get back. Also i want to thank all of you for sharing you thoughts. I've pointed out about my on going email debate about this subject. Well they are here reading these posts, keep that in mind while your responding.

sorry for the hard to read external source. For some reason it excluded the spaces.

I provided the source link for easier reading, please visit the link.

Thanks!


edited to add the link again for my response to the "false prophet" accusation.

LINK HERE

[edit on 15-5-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by dthwraith


Wow here I go to bed then work and look at all I've missed....So what I am getting from your posts is you are more interested in if JW's are of the Truth or just another set of false prophets? Is that what you meant by "Christian or Cult"?

I dug out my 1952 Websters "Prophesy 1. To speak as a prophet; utter or make prophecies. 2 To teach religous matters; preach."

I was just reading a JW study aid "Keep yourselves in Gods love" a 2008 publication and on page 209 in a study on 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 this publication states "Today, prophesying would apply to any Bible-based teaching that a Christian minister does." From that perspective you could say they prophesy.
But as far as setting dates, I am only in my mid thirties but have never heard of any end time dates. And in my current studies of witness teachings I am not aware of any upcoming dates that are being looked toward other than conventions, which by the way if you haven't gotten your personal invitation yet to the upcoming convention that is open to the public, please check this link for a time and location near you! www.jw-media.org... click the 2009 “Keep on the Watch!” District Convention locations link.

Oh, I just looked in the same dictionary "cult 1. a system of religiious worship or ritual. 2. devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, etc., especially when regarded as a fad: as, the cult of nudism. 3. a group of followers; sect."

I have totally enjoyed reading all the posts, especially "This is obviously a huge cult that has twisted the scriptures.They spread nothing but lies. "

Peace!

Okay I have muddled through as much of the freeminds website I could...I found it interesting. I get that the intent of all of the quotes and comments is to point out the Bible students past shortcomings , I personally found it encouraging to see the growth toward the truth the Watchtower organization has made.
It has been a process like Blue-Jay had already pointed out of digging for the truth and slowly uncovering it, as the brothers are certainly led by Holy Spirit, they are not gifted with works like visions or healing...so, there was no instant illumination over a hundred years ago that brought the full truth. The current understanding of the Witnesses has been attained through study/research and prayer. None today claim special insight.

About the time of the end prophecies here is a quote from a Watchtower dated 11/1/1995 pp. 19-20 "A Time to Keep Awake -

The “Generation” That Passes Away
10 Let us examine more closely Jesus’ statement at Matthew 24:34, 35: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” Jesus’ words that follow show that ‘nobody knows that day and hour.’ Far more important, he shows that we must avoid the snares surrounding us in this generation. Thus Jesus adds: “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:36-39) Jesus here compared the generation of his day to that of Noah’s day.—Genesis 6:5, 9; footnote
11 This was not the first time that the apostles heard Jesus make this comparison of ‘generations,’ for some days earlier he had stated concerning himself: “The Son of man . . . must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man.” (Luke 17:24-26) Thus, Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 17 make the same comparison. In Noah’s day “all flesh [that] had ruined its way on the earth” and that was destroyed at the Flood was “this generation.” In Jesus’ day the apostate Jewish people that were rejecting Jesus was “this generation.”—Genesis 6:11, 12; 7:1.
12 Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, “this generation” apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways. In contrast, we as Jesus’ disciples refuse to be molded by the life-style of “this generation.” Though in the world, we must be no part of it, “for the appointed time is near.” (Revelation 1:3; John 17:16) The apostle Paul admonishes us: “Keep doing all things free from murmurings and arguments, that you may come to be blameless and innocent, children of God without a blemish in among a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you are shining as illuminators in the world.” —Philippians 2:14, 15; Colossians 3:5-10; 1 John 2:15-17.
13 Our “shining as illuminators” includes not only displaying a clean Christian personality but, above all, fulfilling Jesus’ prophetic commission: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14) No human can say when that end will be, but we know that the end of “this generation” of wicked people will come once the witness has been given to God’s satisfaction “to the most distant part of the earth.”—Acts 1:8. "

Witnesses do believe we are in the end times of this system for certain...but knowing a thing is near and claiming when it will come are two different things.
Sorry about the long quote I thought it worth it...

Peace