Waterboard TORTURE on Video (must watch)

Originally posted by mikerussellus
I learned about the middle-east 'mindset' after the Irani overthrow of the Shaw.
You said it, civilized society. WE operate under one set of rules THEY operate under another set. It's foolish to think that we could bring them 'up' to our moral standards.
In order to get an idea across to them, we have to sink to their level.
THAT is something they do understand.

You can't talk to them. You can't share a cigarette and swap stories and relate. There is no common ground. The only way we have to communicate on any basic lavel, is to sink to theirs.
They are not as 'civilized' as us. (that being up for interpretation)
It's not anger that drives 'torture' but practicality.

This is ignorant, hateful and absolutely racist.

Most middle eastern people are regular folks like you and me, just trying to get by, provide for their families and live as comfortably as they can in the most war-torn part of the planet.

Tell me this, are you against giving our detainees trials? How can you justify the torture of innocent people? Or did you forget that in America you are innocent until proven guilty? But you would rather us 'sink to their level', to make things even-steven.

Have you heard the expression, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"?

Originally posted by mikerussellus

You said it, civilized society. WE operate under one set of rules THEY operate under another set. It's foolish to think that we could bring them 'up' to our moral standards.
In order to get an idea across to them, we have to sink to their level.
THAT is something they do understand.

First I have to say what you just said is incredible hypocritical. We agree on the fact that we operate under one set of rules and they operate on another, but you want us to start operating under their set of rules? Wont that make us terrorist? Wouldn't they win if we did that, even if we killed or imprisoned every single one of them?

Were not talking about bringing them to our level, even though that would be nice. Were talking about staying on our level and not sinking to theirs.

P.S middle eastern civilians are just like us.


[edit on 25-4-2009 by Anubis_4400]

reply to post by Anubis_4400


They are just like us...but they have religious wars, suicide bombers, EXTREME poverty.

Look at our own country my friend. They have harder times than most of our own ghettos. The environment one is raised truly has an impact on ones thinking.

A persons level of education can not be learned in a day or a year. It is a life experience.

Also, refer to my previous post. Just because you say something is hypocritical does not mean it is true. You must take into account the circumstances, and not just the principle.

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
reply to post by Seany

 

We are the good guys...

Power corrupts many people. I am sure many of us (really speaking for myself) have had power before, and used it to gain the upper hand...even if it did not require "torture".

I am not justifying torture now, because after the video, my view on this has changed to the fact that it is wrong.

Back to what you said about us being the good guys. Maybe in a perfect world, good guys will win, go to heaven, and the bad guys the opposite. But many do not see it that way.

They see it like this. We let these "bad guys" go and they will kill us. Sometimes you will make a decision and feel that the outcome could have been better...if that, if this. In the end though, you might have made the best possible solution. Or the worst. Ya just do not know.

There is a process of applying the word hypocritical to an opposing debate to make the weight of it much less. Such as this.

"Do not kill, but we will kill the bad guys", or however you wish to word it. There is nothing wrong when one does a certain action over the other for the greater good, and at the time, the security of the U.S was deemed as the greater good, rather than principle.

I do not support water boarding (after seeing this video). But I do support the least brutal activity in order to get information out of terrorist leaders over my first statement of this paragraph.

We ARE the good guys, but sometimes we have to to 'bad' things to get the positive results.

It might be nice to sit on the fence but one of these days you're going to have to get off on one side or the other.

Originally posted by mikerussellus

There is no rage involved. You can't 'fool' them, uh. . . been there done that. Even before all of this Gulf nonsense I lived overseas for quite some time. I learned about the middle-east 'mindset' after the Irani overthrow of the Shaw.

Um... I have two words for you... Operation A-Jax ... now here is www.google.com... ... go nuts... USA has been meddling with and playing the smoke and mirrors game with the middle east since the 50s at least.

You said it, civilized society. WE operate under one set of rules THEY operate under another set. It's foolish to think that we could bring them 'up' to our moral standards.
In order to get an idea across to them, we have to sink to their level.
THAT is something they do understand.

They understand hatred, deceit, and lies because that is what USA has done to them since the 50s.

You can't talk to them. You can't share a cigarette and swap stories and relate. There is no common ground. The only way we have to communicate on any basic lavel, is to sink to theirs.
They are not as 'civilized' as us. (that being up for interpretation)
It's not anger that drives 'torture' but practicality.

I can tell you that is 110% horse crap. My best friend in high school was half Arabic half white. His dad moved here to work as an Engineer. His dad was cool as all hell, good sense of humor, and I had no issue whatsoever "finding common ground" on which to have a civil conversation with a full blooded Arabic man. Every couple of years my friend, his sister, and their dad would go back to their dad's country to see their family in the middle east and I got an invite many times. Never went, but I should have at least for the experience... there was nothing evil, synical, diabolical, radical, or animalistic about this Arab man or his family... from grade school to graduation I was never called an infidel or kidnapped or what have you... but yet you talk about Arabs like they're a totally different species... like they are somehow animals and we are their over-seers. Im ashamed to be a human being sometimes, really.

Torture is not practical, it's actually on the other end of the spectrum. We are living in the day and age where UK can record every e-mail and the US can spy on its own citizens phone calls and e-mails and we have Google Earth with "street view" for the public... but our intelligence agency in "the greatest nation on Earth" can't stop 'em and we have to be as bad, if not worse, than they have been towards us? I don't buy that for one second... if our intelligence agencies are that bad, then we should save our national budget and cut the CIA, NSA, and the like...

And one more thing... I see people say "theyre so barbaric they cut peoples heads off" Quite frankly, if I was held captive by radical arabic terrorists... I would ASK to have my head cut off and end this as quick and painlessly as possible before they torture me and my heart gives out like we did to guys in Abu Ghraib (and probably GTMO.. I don't believe for half a second that we have seen the meat and potatoes of the "classified memos")

I say that ^^^ because my thinking is this.. if I am going to die, I would much rather go out in a quick 1-2 second beheading rather than be kept alive for a month where I was electrocuted, starved, had dogs in my face, and was forced to stand a box for a day with my arms up before they finally did "accidentally" kill me... yeah, you pick. Which sounds more humane than you?

This is 100% torture. It's without a doubt torture. It was DESIGNED to be torture. LOOK UP the definition of torture. Waterboarding IS torture. The only argument (and a pretty poor one) is the morality of torture and the decision to do it or not to do it... and quite frankly, at least the crazy muslims skip the torture part and just end it. The people in GTMO won't see free land until they're buried (which they probably won't even be afforded that right)

Spend some time with them. It's useless to argue a point that the other side fails to even acknowledge.
They do NOT hold the same moral value on human life that we do. That is a fact. Research it. It's true.
Chistianity has gotten a bad rap for centuries, mostly for good reasons but we ARE trying to change.

THEY ARE NOT!

Look at it this way, in order to win an arguement, you have to get the other party to see things from your perspective.
It's very difficult to do when you are dealing with a population of people that don't even BELIEVE the same things that you do.

reply to post by mikerussellus


mike....this is about the torture....

It has been continually shown that info from 'torture' is unreliable.

Perhaps there is a dis-connect here....IF you do NOT know anything, and claim such, you will not be believed. Under 'torture'....you will likely repeat that you know nothing.

Under continued torture, your mind will try to come up with something ANYTHING that you can make up to stop the torture.

I believe, that under such duress....EVEN IF you have a secret, and you don't want to divulge to the 'enemy'....you WILL make something up....you can concoct a false 'confession', keep your secret, and stop the torture.

If you are clever, you will think of something that they want to hear....based on the questions....put the puzzle pieces together, send them on a wild goose chase!!!!

Personally, that's what I would do....screw 'em!! They can kill me, and I'd die happily, knowing that I'd sent them off on a tangent....ESPECIALLY if it led them into a trap that I had previous knowledge of beforehand!!!!


*edit* I hope someone can see the irony, here....

[edit on 4/25/0909 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by ImaNutter

Originally posted by mikerussellus

There is no rage involved. You can't 'fool' them, uh. . . been there done that. Even before all of this Gulf nonsense I lived overseas for quite some time. I learned about the middle-east 'mindset' after the Irani overthrow of the Shaw.

Um... I have two words for you... Operation A-Jax ... now here is www.google.com... ... go nuts... USA has been meddling with and playing the smoke and mirrors game with the middle east since the 50s at least.

You said it, civilized society. WE operate under one set of rules THEY operate under another set. It's foolish to think that we could bring them 'up' to our moral standards.
In order to get an idea across to them, we have to sink to their level.
THAT is something they do understand.

They understand hatred, deceit, and lies because that is what USA has done to them since the 50s.

You can't talk to them. You can't share a cigarette and swap stories and relate. There is no common ground. The only way we have to communicate on any basic lavel, is to sink to theirs.
They are not as 'civilized' as us. (that being up for interpretation)
It's not anger that drives 'torture' but practicality.

I can tell you that is 110% horse crap. My best friend in high school was half Arabic half white. His dad moved here to work as an Engineer. His dad was cool as all hell, good sense of humor, and I had no issue whatsoever "finding common ground" on which to have a civil conversation with a full blooded Arabic man. Every couple of years my friend, his sister, and their dad would go back to their dad's country to see their family in the middle east and I got an invite many times. Never went, but I should have at least for the experience... there was nothing evil, synical, diabolical, radical, or animalistic about this Arab man or his family... from grade school to graduation I was never called an infidel or kidnapped or what have you... but yet you talk about Arabs like they're a totally different species... like they are somehow animals and we are their over-seers. Im ashamed to be a human being sometimes, really.

Torture is not practical, it's actually on the other end of the spectrum. We are living in the day and age where UK can record every e-mail and the US can spy on its own citizens phone calls and e-mails and we have Google Earth with "street view" for the public... but our intelligence agency in "the greatest nation on Earth" can't stop 'em and we have to be as bad, if not worse, than they have been towards us? I don't buy that for one second... if our intelligence agencies are that bad, then we should save our national budget and cut the CIA, NSA, and the like...

And one more thing... I see people say "theyre so barbaric they cut peoples heads off" Quite frankly, if I was held captive by radical arabic terrorists... I would ASK to have my head cut off and end this as quick and painlessly as possible before they torture me and my heart gives out like we did to guys in Abu Ghraib (and probably GTMO.. I don't believe for half a second that we have seen the meat and potatoes of the "classified memos")

I say that ^^^ because my thinking is this.. if I am going to die, I would much rather go out in a quick 1-2 second beheading rather than be kept alive for a month where I was electrocuted, starved, had dogs in my face, and was forced to stand a box for a day with my arms up before they finally did "accidentally" kill me... yeah, you pick. Which sounds more humane than you?

This is 100% torture. It's without a doubt torture. It was DESIGNED to be torture. LOOK UP the definition of torture. Waterboarding IS torture. The only argument (and a pretty poor one) is the morality of torture and the decision to do it or not to do it... and quite frankly, at least the crazy muslims skip the torture part and just end it. The people in GTMO won't see free land until they're buried (which they probably won't even be afforded that right)

Good. You delt with one person/one family. Is using Hitler as good example to define austrio-germans?
Torture works.

Period.
I'm not here to redefine what has been going on in the past. I will call a spade, a spade.
We have received positive information thanks to 'torture.

Poeples lives have been saved.

Are you of the mindset that believes that if it doesnt directly affect you, then it doesn't exist?

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
reply to post by Anubis_4400

 

Also, refer to my previous post. Just because you say something is hypocritical does not mean it is true. You must take into account the circumstances, and not just the principle.

I'm assuming you mean "Just because you say something is hypocritical does not mean it isn't true"

Your right it just means its incredibly stupid.

In order to fight terrorism we must become terrorist.

Its the classic villain archetype . The noble hero who becomes the very enemy he/she despised in order to defeat said enemy.



[edit on 25-4-2009 by Anubis_4400]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by mikerussellus

 

mike....this is about the torture....

It has been continually shown that info from 'torture' is unreliable.

Perhaps there is a dis-connect here....IF you do NOT know anything, and claim such, you will not be believed. Under 'torture'....you will likely repeat that you know nothing.

Under continued torture, your mind will try to come up with something ANYTHING that you can make up to stop the torture.

I believe, that under such duress....EVEN IF you have a secret, and you don't want to divulge to the 'enemy'....you WILL make something up....you can concoct a false 'confession', keep your secret, and stop the torture.

If you are clever, you will think of something that they want to hear....based on the questions....put the puzzle pieces together, send them on a wild goose chase!!!!

Personally, that's what I would do....screw 'em!! They can kill me, and I'd die happily, knowing that I'd sent them off on a tangent....ESPECIALLY if it led them into a trap that I had previous knowledge of beforehand!!!!


*edit* I hope someone can see the irony, here....

[edit on 4/25/0909 by weedwhacker]

But it does work. The attack on LA was stopped. The attack on the Brooklyn Bridge was stopped. We saved American lives by going this route. Was it worth it? Well you have to weigh the act of torture to saving human lives.

It looks like torture to me and for a nation that sees itself as the good guy like we do what does that say about us? we are only the good guys when it will suits our current agenda.

[edit on 033030p://1226 by mike dangerously]

reply to post by mikerussellus


mike....I will NOT 'quote' the entire response....for obvious reasons.

Mike....you're a little late to the 'game'....there is NO proof of any intel from a 'torture' to eliminate a threat to an attack in LA....THIS has been well documented, already...not just this thread, but on others here...and all over other News sources. Just search.

Again....'torture' is not going to give the "results" you see on TV...and, I didn't specifically mention it before....but, everyone knows I'm talking about '24'....on Fox. (Hmmmm.....what a surprise!!! It's on "Fox"!!!)

To imagine that a TV Show, using torture techniques, is tantamount to reality, is the same as thinking that 'Star Wars' is tantamount to reality....in a "Galaxy Far, Far Away....."

UNTIL each and every one of us actualy undergoes the real 'water-boarding' as depicted....then stop telling us what you think. IF you paid attention....to the Christopher Hitchens video, you may notice that the Board had a slant....notice it yet???

Well, just in case you didn't....it was slanted 'head-down'. ANYONE ever get water up your nose???? Do you know how that feels????

Just in case you forgot....jump into a pool, have a friend handy...and then inhale through your nose, while underwater. Heck, if you don't have a pool, do it in the bathtub!!!!!

THEN, come back to ATS and tell us your experience!!!!!!

Honestly? I cannot think of a worst way to die....drowning is the same as 'suffocation'. It's horrible.......

Originally posted by mikerussellus

Good. You delt with one person/one family. Is using Hitler as good example to define austrio-germans?
Torture works.

Period.
I'm not here to redefine what has been going on in the past. I will call a spade, a spade.
We have received positive information thanks to 'torture.

Poeples lives have been saved.

I was aware that your first point was a possible one, and I'm willing to concede that. But in the same token, you have to concede that not all Arabs are radical Islamic terrorists who wish death upon America. They are human beings like you or me with the same thoughts, feelings, needs, wants, and desires. Of course I wouldn't define Germans by what Hitler did, and in the same breath I wouldn't dare define the Arab people by what "Osama Bin Laden" and "Al Qaeda" did. Can you agree with that, and see where I saw flaw in what you originally stated, that there is no common ground with these people.. that we must sink to the level of radical terrorists...

Tell me this, if we treat them less humanely than they did us... and they're radical terrorists... what are we? Even Faux News can't defend that dude.. Smith hit it on the head. America is losing it's few legs left to stand on as far as morality goes... Politicians doing drugs with lobbyists, politicians lying, politicians VOTING TO GIVE THEMSELVES RAISES WHEN THEIR APPROVAL RATING IS ~30%, started a war on a lie (if we were going after terrorists, then go after terrorists.. that wouldnt be a lie... saying there were WMDs in Iraq to go to war with Iraq IS a lie), killed hundreds of thousands of the Arab world, Abu Ghraib, and Gitmo... come one dude... how righteous can we be? Are you kidding yourself? I love my home I love my family and I love the smart citizens that live here... but our government and our use of our power is laughable at best, a joke at worst.

And before you jump on me for supporting terrorists or something to that effect, I will also concede that there are Al Qaeda members or even senior members being held in GTMO. BUT.. NOT ALL OF THEM ARE. I would be wiling to bet that a large portion are held on speculations at best. You can find youtube videos of a Iraqi vet describing the round up process for Abu Ghraib. If someone in a crowd threw a molotov or shot at US soldiers, EVERYONE got rounded up and shipped away that was in the crowd. And then I won't even go in to what happened at Abu Ghraib.

I will disagree with you on the notion that torture works... it has COST us lives. Not to mention the fact that someone being tortured will tell you anything and everything to get you stop. But you have the few that have been released, have been so angry and what had happened to them that if they didn't have a reason to join the "fight" before... they sure as heck did then after receiving no human rights whatsoever from supposedly the one country you think would give them. Abu Ghraib and GTMO are recruitment posters for Al Qaeda. It's not a surprise in the slightest that detainees who are released decided to go to the battlefield. Anger turns to vengeance in a heart beat, ask the country that went to war on a lie just because they were angry... Is that your definition of "torture works" ? When the negatives outweigh the positives, it DOES not work. By torturing and creating these recruitment posters for terrorists, we will inevitably lose the amount of lives we supposedly saved by getting someone to say there was going to be an attack in LA.

When you line things up and look at this: You can say Peoples lives have been saved from torture, BUT we have lost soldiers from torture, peaceful citizens in Iraq Afghanistan and Pakistan have been killed because of torture, there is more angst towards America because of torture, there are more radical terrorists now because of torture. That is a fact... and I would love to see you argue that point... that's your definition of torture?

And I cringe every time I hear someone mention that LA report. What purpose does the things like black ops, CIA, NSA, and FBI serve? You ignored my point so I will reiterate it... we have the capacity to cover all forms of communication, we have code breakers, we have drones, we have satellites, you can view real life shots of someones HOUSE halfway across America with Google Earth free to public (imagine intelligence community capabilities), we have all these wonderful laws in place like the Patriot Act and the wiretapping... SO WHAT'S THE POINT?!?! You're honestly telling me that the intelligence community in the United States, especially combined with the ISI, doesn't have the capacity to stop pissed off Arabs? We stop babies at the airport because they're on terror watch lists (actually happened, too lazy to find the link as I type), but we can't stop radical terrorists? We publish reports saying Ron Paul and other politicians are terrorist threats, but we can't stop radical terrorists? Give...me...a....break.

Torture is middle ages. Torture is barbaric. Helllooo, welcome to the 21st century. Torture has done more damage to this country than it has done good..... that is a fact.

Are you of the mindset that believes that if it doesnt directly affect you, then it doesn't exist?

I am of the complete opposite line of thought, I am completely aware of the world and implications of certain events. I am aware of cause and effect. However, apparently you are not. Because the torture did not effect you and you think it works, does not mean it has fueled the flames unnecessarily, especially when you keep in mind we have the most technologically advanced intelligence community and armed forces in the world.

That's my rebuttal.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by kommunist
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Um...I will have to disagree with you. I think it's been proven that a lot of information that has been gained through torture is unreliable.

As the person being tortured will practically say that he/she is the Devil incarnate in order to make it stop.

Also, yes some of the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay are "nasty dudes", however a lot of the people being unlawfully detained as "enemy combatants" have done nothing wrong.

If you or anyone else were ever "waterboarded", you may change your tune about this abhorrent interrogation technique.

The ends justify the means, eh?

(I would also like to point out - Al-Qaeda.)


[edit on 24-4-2009 by kommunist]

I have been water boarded. Nov 17, 2004 Q-course training. I was giving a number and told not to release it it was vital to goverment secuirty I lasted about a half an hour. I tried everything giving them false numbers, numbers close to the one I had. They would Collaborate it with the numbers that the other men had giving them( cause we all had the same number) In the end I folded and gave them the number they wanted. and all the tactics that are used by the CIA were used on me and other memebers trying to make it into SF.

I dont know why you have so many stars for this,when you are clearly not telling the truth.
You didnt mention this on your own thread dealing with this subject,in fact you implied water boarding was the same as standing out in the rain in your basic training for the army!

Now all of a sudden,you have been water boarded!Sorry sunshine,I'm not buying it.You would have mentioned that right from the start

I am surprised you gave up if you realy did do this for SF selection,there hardly gonna kill you!You knew the rewards at the end of it,its not the same as being picked up agaisnt your will and boarded by foreign people not knowing if they just want to kill you!

On topic,thanks for the post.I nearly drowned once and it felt like time stopped as i was beneath the waves and an eternity till my lungs breathed in when I surfaced.The clips on the internet I feel are rather tame,I would expect far more water is used when they do this for real so the subject feels they are submerged!

On the subject of torture,its a gray aread indeed.If we were 100% sure that the person involved was guilty and held information that could save many lives then one could argue for its use in extreme situations-the trouble is we might not have the right men and I am pretty sure that if we were boarded 183 times we would admit to anything to stop it!

No wonder so many of them are on hunger strike and just want to die,if they have to endure boardings day long to say something they know nothing about it must seem like hell on earth

anyway,thanks for the post OP

Well here it is folks.

Right from the horses mouth.

I think this validates what a few of us have been saying regarding torture and the unreliable information extracted.

If you have participated in the torture of detainees, there is a possibility (albeit slim) that you may face prosecution for your actions.


"WASHINGTON - The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."

GIs prosecuted
There was no consideration within the National Security Council that the planned techniques stemmed from Chinese communist practices and had been deemed torture when employed against American personnel, the former administration official said. The U.S. military prosecuted its own troops for using waterboarding in the Philippines and tried Japanese officers on war crimes charges for its use against Americans and other allied nationals during World War II."

link:

www.msnbc.msn.com...


[edit on 25-4-2009 by kommunist]

The U.S is on very unstable ground.


History has shown there are two ways down this road. It is a choice that individual people have to sometimes make as well. Be the monster, or be the shining beacon.

The problem is that the US claims it's the shining beacon, and tells everyone as often as it can. Regarding torture, the people of the world know that it is being the monster. This generates an extremely unhealthy reaction.

I don't like most of Obama's policies, but I'm glad he's ending this. Be what you are, not what you say you are. For the US, this is one step towards actually being what it says it is.

Personally, I'm with the crowd that says be the monster. But at least say that you are going to be the monster.

I personally believe we should collaborate with India. Pull out all of our soldiers from Iraq. Put 500,000 boots on the ground in Pakistan (because most Taleban and Al-Qaeda are Pakistani) and give the order to flatten it. It's a shame that most people think the fight is in Afghanistan. It's really in Pakistan.

Waterboarding? Torture? Yes it is. That is clear. Go all the way, or don't. But don't go half way and say you're not.

Technology vs. Torture

Psychopharmaceuticals and brain imaging could make prisoner interrogation more humane. Should we use them?

Don't America's military and intelligence communities have a sworn obligation to obtain information from detainees that can save the lives of innocents? How far can they go to get it?

The tools for radically transforming tomorrow's interrogations can be found in hospitals worldwide. They're helping to painlessly diagnose Alzheimer's, dyslexia, epilepsy, schizophrenia, insomnia, and brain tumors. The past decade has seen revolutions both in brain-scanning technologies and in drugs that affect the brain's functions. Like personal computers and digital camcorders, these technologies are getting faster, better, and cheaper. And they may have uses in the interrogation room that will render moot debates about the excesses of Abu Ghraib-style treatment of prisoners.

Even if torture and abuse were effective interrogation tactics, they intrinsically undermine the values American society says it stands for. By contrast, using minimally invasive technologies explicitly designed not to be harmful represents values that can be defended both at home and abroad.

The goal here wouldn't be to update the CIA's notorious MK-Ultra "mind control" experiments of the 1950s, which administered '___' and performed other experiments on unwitting prisoners.
www.slate.com...


This article was dated 2004.

reply to post by Anubis_4400


I mean what I said - "Doesn't mean it is true" was referring to a comment made by you.

If a man was going to kill you, would you kill him for your life, even if you were not for murder?

Is that hypocritical? If that is the case, then hell yeah I am, and proud of it too.

But in reality, it is not. Because my belief is this.

IF FOUGHT, FIGHT BACK.

So now tell me how I am a hypocrite. Stop using play words with no claim to them just to negate our arguments in your own head.

Wow!

An anti-waterboarding 'reporter' volunteers to be videotaped being waterboarded, and taps out after 7 seconds?!!!

Are you serious?

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
reply to post by Anubis_4400

 

I mean what I said - "Doesn't mean it is true" was referring to a comment made by you.

If a man was going to kill you, would you kill him for your life, even if you were not for murder?

Is that hypocritical? If that is the case, then hell yeah I am, and proud of it too.

But in reality, it is not. Because my belief is this.

IF FOUGHT, FIGHT BACK.

So now tell me how I am a hypocrite. Stop using play words with no claim to them just to negate our arguments in your own head.

Torturing some one isn't the same as fighting back. We cant allow ourselves to stoop to their level.