Torture? I went through worse in basic training

Originally posted by platosallegory


Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

they may be useing it as a means to explain to the person on the network that maybe they do not realize the severity of the data that is not being collected. but i dont think waterboarding is a joke, never had it done, almost dround a couple of times, but eventually that person could face serious medical problems from not being able to breathe, personally i dont care if they pull someones eyes out, i do in regards to thats bad, but who really signs up for that anyway

Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups. We also went on a field exercise in a storm and had to sleep on the side of the road in wet leaves and grass, It was so wet me and my battle buddy had to sleep back to back to avoid the wet ground.

Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

Although I do agree that US military training is tough, there is a distinct psychological difference between the things that go on in the military as part of training and the torture...excuse me...enhanced interrogation techniques.

The difference being is that in the military, you can stop if you can't take anymore. It's really that simple. You know that you can only be pushed so far and that help is close at hand. During the "enhanced interrogations", they didn't have any such psychological reassurance in the back of their minds.

Above and beyond that, torture has never, and never will be an effective means of getting solid intelligence from anyone.

The person doing the torture, NEVER knows when the "detainee" has told them everything so the "detainee" would tend to tell the torturer anything they want to hear to make it stop regardless of truth.

Think about what the Navy Seals go through. Here's some info:

Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied:

bob for 5 minutes
float for 5 minutes
swim 100 meters
bob for 2 minutes
do some forward and backward flips
swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth
return to the surface and bob five more times

And what happens if the participant can't do this? Do they drown?

Another evolution is surf torture, also called "cold water conditioning."

science.howstuffworks.com...

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

Of course it is and the most dangerous thing is that since the US has decided to disregard the Geneva Convention, this opens up rationalizing the torture of captured US troops that may not have normally been mistreated.

At some point, US troops will be captured in battle and since the enemy KNOWS what the US does to captured "soldiers", they are more likely to abuse our soldiers. And for what? NOTHING.

If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

And if you use torture to get information, how do you know you have the right info? or all the info? etc... You see you'll never know when and if the "detainee" has given all the information you need so the torture must go on indefinitely.

Secret Justice Department memos, released last week ...
...They also note that nonviolent tactics more often were successful than violence.

"The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information," former military interrogation instructor and retired Air Force Col. Steven M. Kleinman wrote in the Intelligence Science Board report. "In essence, there seems to be an unsubstantiated assumption that 'compliance' carries the same connotation as 'meaningful cooperation.'"

In short: Slam someone up against the wall, keep him awake for days, lock him naked in a cell and slap his face enough, and he will probably say something. That doesn't necessarily make it true.

Elsewhere in the Justice Department documents, there are suggestions that the toughest tactics weren't always the most successful. Of the 94 terrorist suspects in the CIA program, only 28 were subjected to "enhanced" methods, the documents said. That means two out of three detainees gave up valuable intelligence in simple interviews.

When the CIA decided to use waterboarding — a tactic that simulates drowning — officials ended up using it far more than intended. Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded at least 82 times in August 2002, the documents said. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the admitted mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003.

"You keep thinking, 'Maybe one more time, and one more time," Rejali said, explaining how interrogators ramp up their methods even as their effectiveness wanes.

The lawyers sidestepped some thorny questions, such as the consequences of using tactics the U.S. has condemned in Egypt, Iran and Syria. They repeatedly approved the interrogation policies.

news.yahoo.com...


[edit on 24-4-2009 by jfj123]

The pro torture group are a little scary, I have to say.

These things that were considered "way out of line" from an humane point of view 65 years ago during WWII now have vehement supporters on this thread.

So much for the world getting smaller huh?

Why is this subject even being raised by the country with the most sophisticated surveillance known to man?

If you can't figure stuff out with spy satellites, phone and email taps and illegal arrests then what makes you think drowning a few guys is going to help?

Gotta say you guys are really heading up the wrong path.






[edit on 24-4-2009 by Marek]

reply to post by platosallegory
[morE]

If indeed you went through torture in basic training then you are proof that torture has long term negative effects.

Sleeping in the rain is not the same thing as waterboarding. You think the waterboarders let you hold your breathe while they are doing it? Think again.

You can try it at home. Fill your bathtub, go under and breathe in the water and stay under for 40 seconds. Unlees you have someone to help you out it will kill you.

reply to post by Marek


Marek, I would suggest you have it a bit backwards.

I've talked with hundreds of WWII combat vets, and found some interesting things from the "Greatest Generation."

Marines in the Pacific after an action would organize and go on a "possum hunt." This was to shoot or bayonet the enemy bodies on the battlefield to make certain that none were "playing possum."

On occasion, an enemy soldier could get grazed in the head, get knocked out, and later, long after the battle was over and the battle area was assumed safe, would suddenly awake and kill a Marine unaware.

Thus the "possom patrols."

Intelligence complained that they never had any prisoners to question, so they offered a two-week leave for every Japanese prisoner. Suddenly, all kinds of prisoners were showing up.

Then they cancelled the leave program.

And no more prisoners were taken.

This group was called the Greatest Generation because they had common sense, a sense of personal responsibility, and a drive to get the job done.

Not one of those characteristics can be found in our current administration, who's complaining of "torture."

And we wonder why our country is in the crapper.

reply to post by dooper


As engaging as your story is I'm pretty sure I know why I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't think I have it backwards. I wouldn't be so rude as to suggest YOU have it backwards.

You are talking about soldiers killing soldiers and that is their purpose. Killing and dying, sad as it is.

We are now talking about civilians torturing civilians without any legal or moral justification and against all human rights laws ever conceived.

If you think that's OK then, fine. You're welcome to that opinion.

reply to post by Marek

I'm saying that the crews from the 1940's were anything but more sensitive.

That generation didn't give a tinker's damn about being sensitive.

Play along. You don't butcher or dress your own animals and your own meats, do you? Most don't.

There are people who do things the majority may find distastful, but do so because it has to be done.

We are not, by any stretch of the imagination, torturing people.

If that is our goal, we can ship them to certain countries, and contract out the work.

Then you won't be able to recognize if it was animal or human.

We don't do that.

reply to post by dooper


Whatever helps you sleep at night man.

And yes I used to kill my own food. Cows, chickens and sheep. Farmer/Butcher etc etc.
I never partially drowned any of them though, so ...err.. what was your point?


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Marek]

reply to post by Marek


You take care. The gatekeepers are alert and on the job.

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by Marek

 

There are people who do things the majority may find distastful, but do so because it has to be done.

But since torturing doesn't work, why do it?

We are not, by any stretch of the imagination, torturing people.

Maybe not now but the bush administration did sanction torture.

If that is our goal, we can ship them to certain countries, and contract out the work.

The bush administration did this on a number of occasions.

Then you won't be able to recognize if it was animal or human.

We don't do that.

The bush administration did indeed do that. They kidnapped a Canadian citizen and sent him to syria to be tortured for over a year before the syrians released him and said he was not a terrorist and completely innocent.

First of all someone mentioned that people chose to go through training and detainees don't chose to be where they are. The last time I checked innocent civilians were not being round up and sent to Guantanamo Bay. They didn't chose their fate just as much as people in US prisons didn't chose to be where they are.

The first time I read the definition of water boarding I laughed. Everybody was building it up to be something extremely horrible. Torture? They are playing nice. If they wanted torture all they needed was a bathtub filled with water and two or three guys holding them down, one of them with their hands around the detainees neck. Should this be done? Probably not but I am just making a point.

As for releasing the information, it's not going to harm anything. If we were going to continue to use these types of methods for getting information it's not like waterboarding is the only thing we can come up with.

Also, what is all of this about torturing is not an effective way of getting information? The only way that it's not an effective way of getting information is if the detainee has no more information to give. I have heard that it is not the most effective but I seriously believe that this is a play on words. Sure you can get the wrong information but let's not kid ourselves how long is that going to work? If somebody is putting you through enough pain that you give up information and they are still going to have the power to do so a week or two after they figure out you are lying do you really think it's you are going to lie to these people? Your cell is not that far away...

reply to post by jfj123

Who exactly, provided you with irrefutable proof that torture doesn't work? John McCain notwithstanding, torture does work. But it has to be an aggressive form of extreme psychological torture, specifically oriented toward cultural beliefs, abominations, fears, and divinations.

The Bush Adminstration did not sanction torture. It did sanction aggressive techniques of psychological dislocation. No blood, no foul.

We often ship prisoners to other countries, as some cultures are more able to communicate effectively with their own.

Was this Canadian a Canadian/Syrian? I find difficulty in believing this on the surface as the US and Syria don't cooperate on a single thing. If we did send someone there, then more lies deep under the surface.

And I still say no, we in the US don't maim.

19 pages.

19 pages of mostly conflict.

I don't get it.

I care more about my hamster downstairs than I do about someone that has knowledge about an upcoming attack on US citizens and won't provide the information to thwart such an attack. I could not care less if their arms and legs are cut off if it saves American lives.

Set an example of good conduct?

How many videos of American and Allied beheadings do we need to see on YouTube before we realize that the Islamic Fundamentalists could not care less how WE treat their soldiers?

How embarassing to have to write this........I just assumed that this was just common sense.

The US lost 550,000+ citizens in WWII defending our way of life. 33,000+ in Korea. 58,000 in Viet Nam. And now, 65 years later, we are concerned about the lives and treatment of those that seek to harm us.

Absolutely reprehensible.

Don't bother responding to me. I'm sick to my stomach at the stupidity of those that defend the "non-combatants", "terrorists", "freedom-fighters"...however you choose to label them. They want to kill us....all to produce the 12th Immam.

I won't be checking on THIS thread any more. I'm too embarrased by some of fellow ATS'rs

Originally posted by dooper

... torture does work. But it has to be an aggressive form of extreme psychological torture, specifically oriented toward cultural beliefs, abominations, fears, and divinations.

The Bush Adminstration did not sanction torture. It did sanction aggressive techniques of psychological dislocation. No blood, no foul.

We often ship prisoners to other countries, as some cultures are more able to communicate effectively with their own.

And I still say no, we in the US don't maim.

Hard to take for those wanting to indict the US government at every opportunity, but they drew the line at body injury. Few countries would have the same reservations.

Geneva Convention and the Constitution be damned, they hoped they were
preventing many deaths and serious injures by doing so. They claim they did.

So points lost for abiding by the law, but some gained for protecting innocents with a nod to morality.

We all hope none of us have to make decisions of this nature. It's so easy to be self-righteous and indignant with a keyboard at hand.


Mike

All we accomplish by torturing is destroying the American way of life. If you can't see that, then you're a traitor to your country.

He served/serves his country. Can you say the same? A little bit of discomfort for one person to possibly save the lives of many is worth it in my opinion.

reply to post by Freqzer0


America does torture.

So has already destroyed its life.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Freqzer0

 

America does torture.

So has already destroyed its life.

I guess as punishment they should be forced to hand over the keys to The Religion of Peace.

Europe seems to rushing in that direction.



M

Originally posted by Styki
First of all someone mentioned that people chose to go through training and detainees don't chose to be where they are. The last time I checked innocent civilians were not being round up and sent to Guantanamo Bay.

And how do you know this? Do you have all the classified records ?

as exmaple:

Arar was detained during a layover at John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002 on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunis. He was held in solitary confinement in the United States for nearly two weeks, questioned, and denied meaningful access to a lawyer. The US government suspected him of being a member of Al Qaeda and deported him, not to Canada, his current home, but to his native Syria, even though its government is known to use torture.[5] He was detained in Syria for almost a year, during which time he was tortured, according to the findings of the Arar Commission, until his release to Canada.[6]

The government of Canada ordered a commission of inquiry which concluded that he was tortured.[7] The commission of inquiry publicly cleared Arar of any links to terrorism, and gave him a C$10.5 million settlement.[8] The Syrian government reports it knows of no links of Arar to terrorism.

Despite the Canadian court ruling, the United States government has not exonerated Arar and, on the contrary, has made public statements to state their belief that Arar is affiliated with members of organizations they describe as terrorist. As of February 2009, Arar and his family remain on a watchlist. His US lawyers at the Center for Constitutional Rights are currently pursuing his case, Arar v. Ashcroft, which seeks compensatory damages on Arar’s behalf and also a declaration that the actions of the US government were illegal and violated his constitutional, civil, and international human rights.

en.wikipedia.org...

They didn't chose their fate just as much as people in US prisons didn't chose to be where they are.

At least the US prisoners had access to council and a trial so we know they were guilty "beyond any reasonable doubt".

The first time I read the definition of water boarding I laughed. Everybody was building it up to be something extremely horrible. Torture? They are playing nice. If they wanted torture all they needed was a bathtub filled with water and two or three guys holding them down, one of them with their hands around the detainees neck. Should this be done? Probably not but I am just making a point.

That is basically what they're doing with water boarding. If you understand the human response to both situations, it's the same thing. Water boarding is simulating DROWNING, just like holding someone under the water.

Also, what is all of this about torturing is not an effective way of getting information?

That is correct.
Read my post a few posts back.
If that isn't enough, I can post page after page of information showing torture is an ineffective means of obtaining intelligence.
Just let me know if you'd like me to post more info about it.

The only way that it's not an effective way of getting information is if the detainee has no more information to give. I have heard that it is not the most effective but I seriously believe that this is a play on words. Sure you can get the wrong information but let's not kid ourselves how long is that going to work? If somebody is putting you through enough pain that you give up information and they are still going to have the power to do so a week or two after they figure out you are lying do you really think it's you are going to lie to these people? Your cell is not that far away...

So when do you know you have all the information?
So how do you know you have accurate information? This is an easy answer. You must follow up on all the information. If it's wrong you go back and torture some more then follow up on the new information. The problem is, the entire time, you have someone who simply wants the torture to stop so they will tell you whatever you want to hear at the time regardless of whether or not it's true. See the vicious circle???
They torture someone.
That person gives up information.
They follow up on the information and find out it's false.
They go torture that person some more.
That information is false.
and on and on and on...

or

That person gives up accurate information.
Then they go back and torture that person for more information.
and on and on and on...

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123

 

Who exactly, provided you with irrefutable proof that torture doesn't work? John McCain notwithstanding, torture does work.

If you read my post back a few, you'd know who.
But there's piles more information showing it doesn't work.
Would you like me to post it all?
Just let me know.

The Bush Adminstration did not sanction torture.

YEP they sure did.
along with extraordinary rendition-a polite term for kidnapping.

It did sanction aggressive techniques of psychological dislocation. No blood, no foul.

Yeah, check the pictures.

We often ship prisoners to other countries, as some cultures are more able to communicate effectively with their own.

Except that's not the reason we shipped prisoners to other countries. The bush administration sent them there to be tortured more so the bush administration had deniability.

If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

Yea? I'd love to see that, you wouldn't last more than 5 seconds.

That statement shows how ignorant you are on the subject of water boarding.