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Torture? I went through worse in basic training

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posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by Pilot303

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


Again, Geneva convention does not apply to non uniformed combatants, so this has nothing to do with the terriost captured and being held at gitmo. In the initail Invasion of Iraq, Iraqi POW were treated with the utmost respect and after they were documented and determined they were not a threat they were sent back to there homes. As far as I know and can remeber no Iraqi POWs made it to gitmo from the initail war. Gitmo houses terriost not Uniformed Iraqi Soldiers. Hell even the Generals we captured were released, to include Feyadheen Commanders.


How about Abu Ghraib?

The truth has now come out that torturing prisoners was common place and not just a rare occurance.

You are correct that Geneva Convention does not apply. If that is the standard for POW's however, shouldn't it. Should the US not apply those standards to all prisoners we hold?

I have stated my point and could go back and forth forever...this is somthing we will not agree on.

Back to original topic however: One thing is clear, basic training is not equivalant to what we have subjected these men to any more than consensual sex is the same thing as rape. When things are done against your will the rules change.


Abu Gharib was wrong period. and they troops who were doing have been severly punished for it, some will never see freedom again. And you are right I never said Basic training and waterboarding are the same thing the OP did, and I get the feeling the OP doesnt know boot camp from boy scouts, since he hasnt defended his postion once.


As far as holding all POW/enemy combtants to the same standard. You if the US did do you think al quadia would have as well? I think not Look what has happened to ever POW that was captured since the conventional war with Iraq ended and Saddams goverment was topppled




posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.


I read that and chose not to read any more, because it was pointless. In this single sentence you have explained why it was wrong.

You HAD A CHOICE.

You submitted yourself to that punishment, a person who is tortured has not.

There, simple wasn't it?



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 09:57 AM
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If they don't want to be tortured, maybe they should think about putting ON VIDEO that they want to blow up the US and kill people before.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by shinjiikari2839
If they don't want to be tortured, maybe they should think about putting ON VIDEO that they want to blow up the US and kill people before.


That didn't make much sesne, but I assume you mean they shouldn't state that they wish to do those things if they want to avoid torture? Is that what you meant?

Please, show me this evidence of every person tortured having done that. I'd like to see it.

Oh wait, you can't, because it doesn't exist.


The UK and the US signed declarations against torture. Regardless of the reasons used to justify it, both countries stated on record that they abhor torture.

Didn't we all invade Iraq to "free the Iraqi people" from the torture of Saddam?
But when it's the US it's ok to torture?

Hypocrisy and corruption of the highest order.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by dooper
Weenies and anti-Americans can now rejoice. As of this moment, dedicated CIA field agents will be abandoning their tasks, with many headed for retirement.

No one wants to work in an environment where you may be prosecuted for doing what you were supposed to be doing.

Now that this secret material is being made public, many countries will be very reluctant to share information worrying about whether the US will release it.

Many dedicated military men will likely abandon the military at the first opportunity.

We saw this same thing in first Carter's Presidency, and then Clinton's. The new rules they put in place gutted our intelligence agencies, and we were surprised on 9-11.

Well, everyone rejoice, as we've got another big attack coming now.

The damage is done, it's irreversable, and hopefully, the attacks that are certain to come, will be in a neighborhood near you.

Congratulations.


Ya know, its funny, someone went through and had all of my posts removed.. Hmmmm. Imagine that.

There is nothing anti-american about questioning those in authority, especially if those in authority are working outside of the constitution. That is the foundation of this country.

The thing that is amazing is that the concern is about working in an environment where you may be prosecuted; when the real issue is in fact that there are JOBS in this country in which people get paid to do things that there is even a QUESTION as to whether it is prosecutable.

I hate to break it to you, but retention rates in the military are very low as it is.

Have you considered that the damage was done when america shifted from a seperatist nation that onl involved itself in foreign affairs when absolutely necessary to a nation that preemptively strikes other countries, that performs covert actions in other countries, that participates in and facilitates coups.....?



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by Chucktah
 




Me, personally, am all for waterboarding, but to those out there who are saying that waterboarding goes against everything that being an American is all about, ask yourself this most simple question...why?

I asked myself that most simple question - but then realized - wow - that really is simple

WTH?

how about if it goes against everything it means to be human?

or, is that not simple enough?



If waterboarding goes against everything American, then how do you think we got to be American? Do you think we asked the Native Americans for their land...

... In my opinion we're just carrying on the tradition...


...so, we carry on with abuse - not because it's the right thing to do - but because it's a tradition? maybe we need a holiday then - National Waterboarding Day or something - barbecues, bands, parades...



Do you think we asked the British for our freedom?...that's how we became Americans...By force.


Do you understand what freedom is?



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 




Your posts werent the only ones removed.

But this argument has gone on for a while and no ones minds have changed and seems like will not be changed so we can agree to disagree?


[edit on 24-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 




Your posts werent the only ones removed.

But this argument has gone on for a while and no ones minds have changed and seems like will not be changed so we can agree to disagree?


[edit on 24-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]


Hey, let's do.

Honestly, I apologize if I was out of line yesterday, it is a topic that hits very close to home for me.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:50 AM
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Well I'm glad that you read what has been released, because that has got to be the full story, right? THere's no way that a bunch of adrenaline addicted, programmed robots that feel tougher than others because they are given a license to kill did anything wrong. I mean those that were tortured were Terrorists, and after beating, manipulating, demeaning, etc. them they told us what we were trying to get them to tell us, and gave us new information that we could then propagate throughout the media and pretend is real. Oh, and I'm sorry that you had such a rough time in Double Dare, or maybe it is a new version called Extreme Gym Class. I mean it's not like you volunteered for it. I'm sure you were taken out of your home, your home damaged/destroyed, your family embarassed/abused, and made to do these things by some ignorant, barely post-teens bigot. Just so you know, this country that is so damaged by calling these atrocities torture, is just a piece of land that people pretended was theirs, was then stolen by other people who then preceeded to mentally and socially kidnap anybody who is born on that piece of land ever since. So I'm not too worried about what damage is done to this country, because when it falls, the millions of people they hold captive, will finally be free! Enjoy your delusions, unless you change your mind and decide to strip yourself of your social conditioning.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 


No worries about it. I know I to said some things that were bad. This is also a subject that I feel verily strongly about. If we were policy makers we'd have to find some middle ground somewhere.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:56 AM
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reply to post by Hohuwah
 



What exactly are you smoking? Can you pass that around the board please? Remeber those guys planned and flew planes into OUR buildings, we diddnt start this they did.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 


No worries about it. I know I to said some things that were bad. This is also a subject that I feel verily strongly about. If we were policy makers we'd have to find some middle ground somewhere.


Well, I wont budge on my position, so we'd have an issue.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 


No worries about it. I know I to said some things that were bad. This is also a subject that I feel verily strongly about. If we were policy makers we'd have to find some middle ground somewhere.


Well, I wont budge on my position, so we'd have an issue.


Most defintly, maybe paper, scissors, rock would be a way to solve it? I think maybe the goverment does that already.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:11 PM
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I will say that I am on your side of this not being "torture" under my own terms...which is the same case with you, because according to the English language, this IS torture.

Protecting the U.S is my number one concern when it comes to relations with other countries. That includes short term consequences along with long term. Whatever is the best way to protect us from harm on our homeland I am for.

I do believe in guilty of association, so to me, these "terrorists" were part of an organization against the U.S . So for that, they are criminals in my eyes and know information that could potentially save life's if our officials were to obtain it.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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There are numerous instances of convictions and harsh sentences - including Shrub's home state of Texas during his time as emperor/governor there - for waterboarding. The law was changed in order to allow Shrub and his boys torture people. It has long been held, both home and abroad, as a form of torture and a crime against humanity.

Basic training is designed to break the spirit, and to indoctrinate the recruit with blind obedience. It's not designed to extract information. If it were, basic training would be a lot more brutal.

My biggest disappointment throughout this whole thing is the absolute lack of empathy for fellow humans.

If, say, China were to invade the US based on a fabrication, and cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and tortured captives with no trial, would you still believe waterboarding not to be torture?
Is it okay because it's us doing it? Or is it just okay in general?



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:57 PM
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Most people have no idea what sort of training people in the military go through.

The insurgents were either part of Saddam's old regime, or were terrorists from other countries which had military training in which they go through these same things, and worse in training..

Most people have no idea what sort of training the special forces, and what nelisted personnel, and even officer candidates in every military branch go through.

After Aircrew candidate school I went through S.E.R.E. Any military personnel whose mission is to be on a plane has to go through Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape, which is training for POWs, in case we get captured, and military personnel that do this have to go through a lot worse than this, and I cannot say exactly what happens there.

Even during Aircrew school an Airman friend of mine and I almost drowned during the helo dunk exercise. We didn't quit, did it once more and passed.

In the helo dunk you, and about 5 more Airmen are strapped into the body of a helo that is set up on a pool. The helo is dropped into the pool, and it goes upside down, you have to count to 10 and release yourself from the safety belt and get out.

You do this 4 times, the first two is with your eyes open, in the first one you go out the first exit you can find, which can be a window, or a door. On the second one with your eyes open everyone goes through the main exit of the helo.

The last two times you do it blind folded. Since you are blindfolded from the begining, when the helo goes upside down your sense of direction is messed up, and unless you can grab hold of seats, and remember which way to go out, you can get stucked and drown.

On the last try which was blindfolded, and everyone going out the main exit my friend and I lost our sense of direction, and could not find anything to hold onto to get out. I got to a point that i took off my blindfold, because I was running out of air, I saw one of the instructors at the bottom of the helo, who was not doing anything as they wait for you to literally drown before they help you, just to see how you react.

I was at the point that i was beginning to black out, and felt like I didn't need oxygen anymore, this is the beginning of the stage of drowning, my friend pushed me, and I woke up and we got out.

You think we quit? no, we did it again and passed it. Part of our training is also for a helo to drop us somewhere in the ocean a mile or so away from the coast, and we have to make it back.

And this is nothing in comparison to what happens during S.E.R.E. training.

People in the military do this for training, and insurgents are terrorists with military training.

However, there were some things which some of the soldiers did that was wrong.



[edit on 24-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 

Neformore, you asked two very good questions.

The first was, when I stoop to the lowest forms of torture (I assume you mean most radical), doesn't that make me as bad as those who I seek to condemn?

No one likes a rusted nut. Sometimes you use light lubricant to get it loose. If that doesn't work, you get a bigger wrench, and if that fails, you literally cut it off. I'm not the one that determines how much force is required to loosen the nut.

You bring your war to me, against me and mine, then you and I will never, ever have the same moral equivalence. I will not only meet your level of barbarity, but since I was at peace when attacked, I will now exceed your level of barbarity with absolute ruthlessness.

And when I've finished with you, I will walk away with a clear conscious. Because it was you that brought it to me first. You initiated this, your blood be on your head. You misjudged me, because you thought you were the more ruthless and uncaring in your attack.

Thus what I do in response will be much more barbaric, and more disgusting, applied with greater ruthlessness, to discourage your kind from repeating attacks on me.

Your second question was, "what right do you have to judge them in the first place, when you are no better?"

The right to judge them was transferred to me the instant I was attacked/engaged. The fact they lost their engagement, and I now have them in my hands does not remove that inherent right I now possess to now judge him who sought to destroy me.

And no, it's not a matter of me being no better. It's a matter of he started it, he lost, he's mine, and now I'll finish it in my own way, in such a manner as to compel others who would attack me to alter their plans.

God have mercy on them, because I certainly won't.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups. We also went on a field exercise in a storm and had to sleep on the side of the road in wet leaves and grass, It was so wet me and my battle buddy had to sleep back to back to avoid the wet ground.

Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

Think about what the Navy Seals go through. Here's some info:

Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied:

bob for 5 minutes
float for 5 minutes
swim 100 meters
bob for 2 minutes
do some forward and backward flips
swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth
return to the surface and bob five more times

Another evolution is surf torture, also called "cold water conditioning."

science.howstuffworks.com...

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.


Torture is something someone does to another without their approval, now if let us say u asked a friend to shove ur head under water for 20-40 seconds, etc... then NO, that is NOT torture, however the same can be said for rough sex, if it ain't you agreeing to it - then it is torture/rape, however that can be changed if you choose to accept the "torture" after a min or two, etc.....

Hence u agreed to be "tortured" in the army - so thus it is NOT torture...

Ah! ur just like the others - a slave in a Master's Uniform, a Master is someone who understands loyalty, hard work, etc.. and does NOT have his slaves lick his behind, 'cause he can do that himself, etc..

U may look rough, however take away all the slaves - u KNOW NOTHING, u will be standing there butt naked, and clueless on what to do....Thus you are already naked, etc...

Enjoy being butt naked chained outside ur Master's home guarding it without any armor, etc.. while your master sits inside in his luxury mansion, now if u chose that lifestyle personally, and based off of knowing what you were doing ,etc.. then fine, but it is the STUPID who I come after to free....

Again - U'd fight, and fight for your Master's luxuries, knowing full well - they be rich, you be poor - they put u in a ware with hardly any armor, etc.., but they go over to the same place u fight with armore d cars, etc.. while u again be butt naked firing at the enemies, while of course standing all in line getting shot, ur own shooting u, and u just standing there...

I know a real Master when I see one, and u are NOT one...

Your evil is but for a short time, then when the day comes, and u get what you deserve, NO ONE will feel sorry for you, but joy at your suffering....

Remember - Today u do NOT care about the ol', sick, etc.. however a new gen army will come in younger than u, take u out of power - be double of what you are, and of course do DOUBLE of what you did to the others, etc, and I am looking forward to it.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 05:49 PM
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oh!, and one more thing - you know those tage you have on in the army - they are called DOG tage for one reason, they are for DOGS, humans do NOT wear dog tags as those are for dogs...

Oh, and of course - they tell u to not follow somone, but they never tell you to be NOT be someones dog....

We are all followers to someone - a follower is free to chose, and go, and remember there were others before us you know - incl. ur parents, etc..

However a dog is NOT free to follow, but can only obey = DOG Slave, etc..

A wolf turns into a dog - A wolf is aiken to someone who goes out and does what they what, however after so long = a dog or human comes breaking/busting in and gobbles u up - which side do you choose...

Again enjoy ur life, when u finally figure out the truth - the slaves you have will not be whipped - it will BE U if you choose to come to the truth....

Choose the truth = Whip for you by ur superiors - a whip equates anything from an actual whipping, to getting screamed at, etc....as it is symbolic...

Anywhoo - u own no slaves - the slaves u own are smarter than u - they know they are slaves - u do not..... Ur uppers own the slaves that u claim to own, etc...

[edit on 24-4-2009 by nowshining]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by nowshining
 

Why dont you finish puberty before you call anyone in the military dogs.Thank you



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