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Torture? I went through worse in basic training

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posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by StonyJ
19 pages.

19 pages of mostly conflict.

I don't get it.

I care more about my hamster downstairs than I do about someone that has knowledge about an upcoming attack on US citizens and won't provide the information to thwart such an attack. I could not care less if their arms and legs are cut off if it saves American lives.

There is no evidence to suggest that 1 life was saved because of the bush administrations torture policy.

Also, if they're guilty, I have no problem with making sure they're punished. The problem is we don't know that, do we? We had to TRUST the bush administration that they were guilty. Trust them that they wouldn't LIE to us about it.
You know, the same administration that
LIED to get us into iraq
signed off on illegal wiretapping
etc....


How many videos of American and Allied beheadings do we need to see on YouTube before we realize that the Islamic Fundamentalists could not care less how WE treat their soldiers?

And those people who did those vile things....well lets just say, an eye for an eye.


How embarassing to have to write this........I just assumed that this was just common sense.

The US lost 550,000+ citizens in WWII defending our way of life. 33,000+ in Korea. 58,000 in Viet Nam. And now, 65 years later, we are concerned about the lives and treatment of those that seek to harm us.

But again, we don't know that those people were the people that sought to harm us. That's the problem.


Don't bother responding to me. I'm sick to my stomach at the stupidity of those that defend the "non-combatants", "terrorists", "freedom-fighters"...however you choose to label them. They want to kill us....all to produce the 12th Immam.

Personally I would NEVER defend terrorists so I'm responding to you.


I won't be checking on THIS thread any more. I'm too embarrased by some of fellow ATS'rs

To bad, you might have learned something.
Good luck in your blind faith that the bush administration never did anything wrong and was always trustworthy enough to have earned your loyalty.




posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by mmiichael

Hard to take for those wanting to indict the US government at every opportunity, but they drew the line at body injury. Few countries would have the same reservations.

Geneva Convention and the Constitution be damned, they hoped they were
preventing many deaths and serious injures by doing so. They claim they did.

So points lost for abiding by the law, but some gained for protecting innocents with a nod to morality.

We all hope none of us have to make decisions of this nature. It's so easy to be self-righteous and indignant with a keyboard at hand.


So what happens when, for example, you are accused of being a terrorist??? Surely you'll understand when they torture you because their goal is to save lives.
If the bush administration starting rounding up caucasion US citizens and started torturing them for information, would you have had a problem with that?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by StonyJ
I care more about my hamster downstairs than I do about someone that has knowledge about an upcoming attack on US citizens and won't provide the information to thwart such an attack. I could not care less if their arms and legs are cut off if it saves American lives.


And what if that person is later found to be innocent?
It has been proven, again and again, that the results of torture are not consistent and provide very little gain or advantage. This has been PROVEN!


Originally posted by StonyJ
Set an example of good conduct?

How many videos of American and Allied beheadings do we need to see on YouTube before we realize that the Islamic Fundamentalists could not care less how WE treat their soldiers?


So that means every nation can justify any actions?
Ever heard of holding the moral high-ground?

How many videos do others need to see of US troops torturing people, the US military blowing up wedding parties, the US kidnapping innocent people from villages...

It goes both ways. So which side is right?
If we used your kind of simple common sense in this instance, you should be supporting THEIR right to kill and maim indiscriminately too.


Originally posted by StonyJ
How embarassing to have to write this........I just assumed that this was just common sense.

The US lost 550,000+ citizens in WWII defending our way of life. 33,000+ in Korea. 58,000 in Viet Nam. And now, 65 years later, we are concerned about the lives and treatment of those that seek to harm us.


Yes, because it is morally reprehensible to torture people. Simple as that.
Your government ignored the Geneva Convention.
Once a nation does that, they are lost.

People like you go on and on about "protecting the American way of life" and that way of life was built on freedom and justice, but as long as it's not freedom and JUSTICE for everyone it's ok?

Do you not think it's incredibly hypocritical of the US to say they support freedom and justice, while kidnapping people, holding them without charge and indefinitely, torturing them...?

Your regime has become no better than Saddam's. You gave up on and conveniently ignore your moral superiority when it suits you, just as Saddam did, just as Iran does, Just as N.Korea does.


Originally posted by StonyJ
Absolutely reprehensible.

Don't bother responding to me. I'm sick to my stomach at the stupidity of those that defend the "non-combatants", "terrorists", "freedom-fighters"...however you choose to label them. They want to kill us....all to produce the 12th Immam.

I won't be checking on THIS thread any more. I'm too embarrased by some of fellow ATS'rs


And I'm sick of people not thinking before they respond, suggesting that it's OK for the US to break international law if it's to protect Americans, but not OK for any other nation to act in this way when they've made no such commitment to these laws. Your credibility is shot as a nation thanks to Bush.

You can't abhor torture and injustice on one hand and practice the same behind closed doors, that is the mark of a dictatorship. That is what the US and the UK stated as reasons to attack Iraq! We all wanted to free the Iraqi people of an evil man, and then the US acts just like his regime.

Quite frankly I don't care if you don't come back into this thread. I respond to your post just to show others how little thought is put into such knee-jerk reactions supporting stupid methods that don't work.

The US is a hypocrite, and the UK are too for ignoring what was going on while benefiting from the results (however false and unreliable).

Slice it any way you like, the US and the UK signed international law regarding torture. The US then ignored those laws when it suited them to do so.
That makes the US a hypocrite, your government broke international law.



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 09:07 AM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet
 


Knew about it or not does not excuse the fact that is wrong. Why does it always have to come down to a Democrat vs Republican or Liberal vs Conservative thing?


CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT APPROVED THESE METHODS END OF DISCUSSION

Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]


So, the Legislative Branch (Lawmaking) and the Executive Branch (Enforcement) said it was okay? Where and when did the Legislative Branch (Supreme Court) say that torture was constitutional....oh yeah, there hasn't been another Bill introduced to repeal the 8th Amendment... So, whether you condone or not, legally, torturing by any means is unconstitutional. Regardless if these "detainees" are being held in foreign countries/soils/whatever, they are being conducted by United States Citizens (Soldiers/Officers/Doctors).
The very first thing I swore to do when I signed up, and before I was to take any orders from any rank/officer above me was.....UPHOLD & DEFEND the Constitution of the United States. So, legally any person that partakes in any of these atrocities can be tried for TREASON! Why have "Americans" forgotten this precious document that is set up to protect us???



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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I have read a few pages of this and IMO you dont know what it's like to really be tortured. You know what is going to happen and you signed up for it. I have never been in the military because I would not make it. I have been told by many people I know in the military that they do this to break you down and build you up stronger. If you and I were in a torture scenario you would probably lost longer than myself because you have been trained in a sense to deal with this, I have not. I would give up in mins more than likely. I have seen videos on torture and IMO you are not really being tortured. What I have seen in videos and images in books on this others have gone through MUCH worse than your controlled basic training environment with doctors and such on hand. Looks to me like you just cant handle the military.



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 10:36 AM
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You know, at some point enough should be enough. You want to show some innocent people being tortured? How about the people that were above the flames during 911? How's that for torture? Lets see some video of that.

How about that guy that was on the phone when the whole building collasped on him. How about Danny Pearl?

You guys that are against water boarding, put yourself in the world trade center tortured to the point where it's better to jump.

Better yet, put someone you LOVE in that situation. Talk to them on the phone while it's happening to your husband or your wife or your son or daughter.

Really put yourself in that situation.

You still care if somebody gets some water up thier nose? You would rather someone suffered horribly and died than getting thier face wet?

Don't ask what's wrong with us. Ask yourself what's wrong with you!

Picture your son with the knife to his neck while you watch. Now listen to him scream and gurgle and watch that face that you loved and kissed roll across the floor, eyes full of terror.

You don't want someone waterboarded? Not killed, waterboarded. Really???

What's wrong with YOU?

In a PERFECT world everything could be all hearts and flowers.

WE DON"T LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD!!!! TRY and wrap your mind around that. And don't tell me if we don't "torture" them then they will see the error of thier ways and be kinder to us. Just how many peoples heads have we, those in the US military, chopped off lately? Any of you got any stats on that?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by miketwosix
You guys that are against water boarding, put yourself in the world trade center tortured to the point where it's better to jump.


Yeah, I know, what's the RAPE in comparison to that.

Makes it look all warm and fuzzy. Redefines torture, indeed


I guess if we are torturing less or significantly less then them, it's OK then



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by miketwosix
 



And again, that makes it OK?

How about the use of napalm on innocent people? How about a Nuclear detonation over a city? How about...

We could go as far back as you'd like. None of it cancels out the fact that the US and the UK signed a global agreement refuting the use of torture.

None of it destroys the accurate research proving that torture is not a valid method of gaining accurate information.

None of it cancels out the fact that the US and UK have done exactly what they criticize other nations of doing.

Bleat on about any example of Americans being harmed all you like. You are not better than any other nation, Americans are not more valuable than any other citizen of this planet. You are not superior to any other Human just because you live in America!



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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Directly too you 5th.

Someone you LOVE is about to have thier head cut off right before your very eyes. Your choice is to do what? A little patty cake maybe? Ah, but what if they lose at patty cake and you hurt thier feelings?

Put yourself in the positition, then answer. Would you let it happen or prevent it by any means?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:07 AM
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This is not about Americans being better than someone else. It's about getting your head chopped off or getting some water up your nose. I'm an American. Given the choice, my choice is, leave my head right where it is. Put the water up my nose. I'm not afraid of bugs. As a plumber I've had sh*% on me before. It washes right off. Play loud music. Put me in a cold room. Don't drop a building on me.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by miketwosix]



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 


Heck, I know people who pay good money to be thrashed by a leather clad woman and they would not call it torture either.

The difference between yourself and sadomasochists and those people who say they have been tortured is that they did not choose to be abused and their abuse was a lot longer than what you went through at boot camp.



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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I find those who find extreme psychological dislocation abhorrent to be in the same class as those who don't believe in fighting. Oh, they'll argue that fighting for something is acceptable, but they won't generally be interested in getting their own hands dirty.

I find that idealists, who would deny the brutal realities of the real world, themselves are insulated and isolated from the barbarities that permeate most other regions of the world.

And I find that when the thing goes tits up and they have to fend for themselves, fortunately, they drop faster than burdschitt in a downdraft.

You don't like any form of torture? You knock yourself out. But your delusions and arbitrary sensitivities are only enabled by those who do the things necessary, those things that require them to get their hands dirty.

Pray they never whiz on the fire, call in the dogs, and declare "every man for himself."

Then we'll let you show us how it's done.



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by miketwosix
 




What's wrong with YOU?


and what's wrong with you?

how does a never ending wave of hate and violence solve anything?

how does torturing a fellow human being solve anything?

fix anything?

how dare you imply that people who are concerned about how other people on this planet are treated - in general - don't care about any of the things you just mentioned?

what IS wrong with you?

that was just nasty

is it that it makes you feel better somehow to know that someone is somehow being punished - even if you can't really know for sure that a specific individual has anything to do with anything?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 

Just a Question
Have you ever been waterboarded in basic training?
From what I have heard.. just before they dunk your head in they punch you in the stomach or solar plexus so you cant hold your breath properly.
Even as a kid when someone would hold me under water in the pool. I would fight back tooth and nail. With waterboarding you cant fight back with your arms and legs tied and someone is holding you under water.



[edit on 25-4-2009 by MonoChromeWrayth]

[edit on 25-4-2009 by MonoChromeWrayth]



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by miketwosix
You still care if somebody gets some water up thier nose? You would rather someone suffered horribly and died than getting thier face wet?

Don't ask what's wrong with us. Ask yourself what's wrong with you!

And what happens when someone you care about is arrested and tortured for information? Still interested in keeping with your beliefs?


Picture your son with the knife to his neck while you watch. Now listen to him scream and gurgle and watch that face that you loved and kissed roll across the floor, eyes full of terror.

Picture that same son in an interrogation room, being tortured for information.


You don't want someone waterboarded? Not killed, waterboarded. Really???

What's wrong with YOU?

To start, torture is not an effective way of obtaining information.
Second, people die during these torture sessions.


In a PERFECT world everything could be all hearts and flowers.

WE DON"T LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD!!!! TRY and wrap your mind around that.

And since we don't observe the Geneva Convention, we can't expect our enemies to. Your hate clouds your judgement of the big picture.


And don't tell me if we don't "torture" them then they will see the error of thier ways and be kinder to us.

Absolutely not. Those extremists hate us and always will because they've been brainwashed to believe we're the enemy.


Just how many peoples heads have we, those in the US military, chopped off lately? Any of you got any stats on that?

So we should torture potentially innocent people because we can't get a hold of the guilty people?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


And your solution is.....?

Of course all the fighting is just terrible. Maybe if we ask people really nicely they won't fight anymore.

In a perfect world where flowers fell out of the sky like snow things would'nt be bad now would they?

Tell me where your pefect place is so I can move there.

I don't want to hurt ANYBODY, ever! But you hurt mine and I will hold your head under those same flowers until your lungs are packed with them.

Tell me, if your daughter were about to be raped and killed and I came in the room. Would you like me to say, "hey, that's not very nice, now you should be good" and then sit on my hands or would you prefer I stop it?

If you say the former then we're right back to "What's wrong with you"?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 


You're right. There is nothing we can do so we will do nothing.

A "potentially innocent victim" was picked off the battle field, brought to the US and tortured by putting water up his nose.

That same "potentially innocent victim" would cut your head off in a heartbeat.

That same "potentially innocent victim" admitted to planning the attacks on 911.

These people were just plucked out of thier peaceful daily lives with no probable cause what so ever.

And I'm the hate filled blind guy.


[edit on 25-4-2009 by miketwosix]

[edit on 25-4-2009 by miketwosix]



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by miketwosix
 




And your solution is.....?


there is no solution - most rational people recognize that

but that doesn't mean there aren't different ways to deal with any situation

I think what you're after is some sort of final solution

your fear and your hatred will allow you to do whatever you see fit - you'll permit yourself any behavior - any method - because you're sure that being afraid is enough to justify anything you want to do


Of course all the fighting is just terrible. Maybe if we ask people really nicely they won't fight anymore. In a perfect world where flowers fell out of the sky like snow things would'nt be bad now would they?


don't condescend to me - and I won't to you

that's not an argument - it's not even that bright - you make yourself look foolish

you want a real discussion - try discussing


I don't want to hurt ANYBODY, ever!


I don't believe you - I'm sorry - but I actually do not believe you


Tell me, if your daughter were about to be raped and killed and I came in the room. Would you like me to say, "hey, that's not very nice, now you should be good" and then sit on my hands or would you prefer I stop it?


and this is why I don't believe you - all your extremely graphic scenarios show me exactly where your thoughts are going

this kind of example is nothing but manipulation - they prove nothing - because - they're not real - and they're childish

but even if it were real - as far as my imaginary involvement goes - it still has nothing to do with the subject

we're talking about torture - what is and isn't torture - is it right or wrong?

all I see is someone who reacts to anything and everything with violence - and seems to enjoy describing violent and disturbing situations


If you say the former then we're right back to "What's wrong with you"?


well then, what's wrong with you?



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by miketwosix
reply to post by jfj123
 


You're right. There is nothing we can do so we will do nothing.

A "potentially innocent victim" was picked off the battle field, brought to the US and tortured by putting water up his nose.

When did I say anything about a battle field. People are picked up all the time. Read my post about a canadian citizen being kidnapped by the US. No battlefield. He was getting off a plane. Oh and by the way, he was found innocent after a year of being tortured.


That same "potentially innocent victim" would cut your head off in a heartbeat.

I'm not talking about pretending actual al queda members are innocent. You really need to learn about the subject here.


That same "potentially innocent victim" admitted to planning the attacks on 911.

Again, I'm not talking about him either.
Do yourself a favor and find out about:
Extraordinary Renditions
CIA kidnappings in Britain and Germany
US foreign soil secret prisons
Terrorist watch lists
etc...
Then get back to me.


These people were just plucked out of thier peaceful daily lives with no probable cause what so ever.

Actually in some cases...YES ! Which shows how little you know about the subject.


And I'm the hate filled blind guy.

YES.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by jfj123]



posted on Apr, 25 2009 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


Ok, so I'm not bright. I sound foolish. I'm filled with fear, hatred, and violence and you don't believe me. And, in your infinate wisdom you "know" all of this based on what I've written.

I think if you were to ask my wife or my children or anyone of my five sisters or virtually anyone that "knows" me they would tell you the exact opposite. I am one of the most nonviolent people you might ever meet.

That does not however mean that I will accept violence without resistance. That is just plain foolish.

I don't live in your world of hearts and flowers. I see bad people do bad things. I see many of them get away with it.

As for my senario being childish, sadly, I have a niece who would beg to differ with you. These things DO happen. I noticed you did'nt say what you would prefer I do if such a situation were to happen to you and yours.



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