Torture? I went through worse in basic training

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
They know that, they also know that if they are taking captive by the enemy they wont come home alive. let see waterboarding or death? I choose waterboarding. Kinda of a no brainer. Dont you think?

And who did we hang after WWII for waterboarding? I was under the impression from what I study NAZIs were put to death for the brutal rape,murder and torture(no waterboarding) of jews,poles,gyosy and whoever else they diddnt like. I dont know about you but my country has never started a war that can has clamied up to 80 Million lives( Not sure if that is the correct number.)

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

lol...this post proves it. You are most certainly not a member of any armed forces.

Once again, check this link if you would like to know about the US hanging people for waterboarding and considering it a war crime: It actually contains the words of John McCain. A man who knows a bit more than you about torture.Japanese Hanged for Waterboarding

Not all members of our forces imprisoned are put to death despite your suggestion that is so. When it happens, people can and will pay whenever possible (search google for a man named Saddam Hussein...he and others were hanged for various crimes against humanity). Not all of our troops are tortured. We (you) however are setting the precedent that it would be ok for that to happen.

It is very simple...if we say it is ok, it will be done to us.

Cliffs notes: Your premise is flawed and you do not understand the definition of "torture" (although many have tried to explain it to you). We have executed others for waterboarding as a war crime. Our authorities may see legal action themselves. It all makes perfect sense.

Your fiction basic training story is flawed logic. Try again!

In case the link does not work:

"John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding."

"There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference."

"If the United States was in another conflict, which could easily happen, with another country, and we have allowed that kind of torture to be inflicted on people we hold captive, then there's nothing to prevent that enemy from also torturing American prisoners," McCain said.

"Waterboarding generally makes breathing difficult and can cause the subject to think he's drowning. It's banned by domestic law and international treaties..."

I am seeing a lot of responses from people in the armed forces or similar saying that it is not torture because they themselves have to endure similar in their basic training.

Bollocks.

YOU have a CHOICE and you get PAID to do it, these people don't. That is the difference.

Also, it does not surprise me to see that the armed forces indoctrinate their sheep to believe anything they are told, which is why we are seeing such blind faith being presented towards torture in this thread. You can present these guys with all the provable facts that you wish but it will not affect them - they will continue to believe that it is not torture because they do not know how to think for themselves.

Originally posted by Kryties
You can present these guys with all the provable facts that you wish but it will not affect them - they will continue to believe that it is not torture because they do not know how to think for themselves.

Unless courts get involved and convict our own authorities for this as a crime. It is starting to look like that may happen.

I have a feeling attitudes may change if it turns out to be a crime that even the previous administration can not avoid.

Our actions are not (and should not) be without consequences. Otherwise, it becomes harder and harder to determine just who the "bad guy" is. Especially when these actions put our other soldiers at risk.



[edit on 24-4-2009 by Pilot303]

reply to post by platosallegory


The difference is you signed up for basic training, you have no one to blame for your misery but yourself. These detainees, most of them probably innocent, got put through Hell, detained unlawfully, abused, and robbed of their basic human rights involuntarily by a country that falsely claims to not torture...

reply to post by Titen-Sxull




You and many others keep spitting out the same argument, "you signed up." Then you go on to say that "These detainees, most of them probably innocent?" How do you come up with that? First of all you're assuming that EVERY detainee was waterboarded, second of all you're assuming that MOST of them were innocent? That is an irresponsible assumption and you can't base an argument off that.

My next question is this...if I were to agree to get waterboarded without getting paid would that shut you guys up who say that the only difference between torture and non-torture is getting paid? Because I will gladly do it!!!!


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Chucktah]

If anything torture makes terrorists out of innocent people who arent a part of the Taliban. Then again whose to say how many flimsy accusations were put against the captured?

However I also agree alotta stuff they spit out is very important to our intel?

I honestly dont know why we have ROE or laws against all this because most if not all of our guys who get captured are found with no heads in ditches.

Until someone can disprove the fact that someone being tortured would make up anything just to stop the pain then I shall forever believe that torturing prisoners is wrong. End of Story.

reply to post by Kryties


I starred that only because you brought up a different point to the argument. But you also have to bring pride and strength into the equation. Those two things will stop most from "making up anything just to stop the pain."

reply to post by Pilot303


I would like to know how you think that these actions alone would put our soldiers into any more danger than they're already in? What is different now then 50 years ago? Why is it that just because the news is talking about waterboarding now, that our soldiers are at any greater risk then before? Is it because before, our enemies had morals? Or is it because that it is an easy argument for your cause?

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Chucktah]

Without even reading, and knowing it's been said a hundred times without looking, I'll say it:

You were the dummy that signed your life away to the government.

reply to post by platosallegory


My husband shared your exact sentiment when he saw the first news article about this, that he was 'tortured' more than this in basic training! I know I have seen horrific tortures by other nations, the tortures being held accountable here are tame by comparison, mind games, not physical tortures. I don' get it, Obama is acting more and more like a wussy, I thought he had strength, but he keeps doing things that make him look like the weakest link.

reply to post by CapsFan8


So when it matters those that signed up to protect you were heros and deserved our respect, but when you don't agree with the administrations rules, they're dummies? That makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by platosallegory
Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

If you believe this, then let me tell you, a fortune teller told me that if you send me your entire savings, it will bring you good luck and good health for the rest of your life!

Hey guys I really think he'll fall for it! *snickers*

Originally posted by space cadet
reply to post by platosallegory

 

I don' get it, Obama is acting more and more like a wussy, I thought he had strength, but he keeps doing things that make him look like the weakest link.

You say that like Obama actually has power. His strings are pulled. I can't believe there are people who actually still believe the political system is real. Unbelievable.

Originally posted by Chucktah
reply to post by CapsFan8

 

So when it matters those that signed up to protect you were heros and deserved our respect, but when you don't agree with the administrations rules, they're dummies? That makes no sense at all.

I never called anyone heroes. I can't really remember when I've agreed with an administration. I guess because it's the same people pulling the strings anyway.

Seems the OP feels posting the SOS over and over will somehow resurrect his debunked lost point - just one look at all the stars against his ramblings tells us so.

Crimes are Crimes and Evil is Evil.

Seems to me it does, that there's allot of men who've done evil deeds that need to pay for their crimes.

Whether they're politicians, CIA or soldiers, if they take part in evil deeds such as torture, they don't represent me an American citizen and I will do what ever it takes to see them prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Here, here.

Originally posted by Chucktah
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

My next question is this...if I were to agree to get waterboarded without getting paid would that shut you guys up who say that the only difference between torture and non-torture is getting paid? Because I will gladly do it!!!!


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Chucktah]

Anyone in the local area willing to take Chuktah up on this? It would make for a really interesting experiment. We sit here debating waterboarding, but the truth is none of us has ever experienced it. So we can argue till the cows come home whether it's torture or not. An ATS report from a trusted memeber on the real experience of waterboarding would be great.

Here's how the US does it:

In this procedure, the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth… During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty-four inches. After this period, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths… The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can with a spout… You have… informed us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than twenty minutes in any one application."

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[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

Very sorry I don't have much time to read this whole thread completely or if these facts have been raised. But I feel they are a strong counter to the OPS post.

en.wikipedia.org...

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately.[13] The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death.[4] Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.[14]

CIA officers who have subjected themselves to the technique have lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.[13]

14 seconds. Think about that.

This can not be compared to training.

If you're going to do this to someone ( which you shouldn't ), you better be damn sure you have the right person ( which they often didn't ).