Torture? I went through worse in basic training

I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups. We also went on a field exercise in a storm and had to sleep on the side of the road in wet leaves and grass, It was so wet me and my battle buddy had to sleep back to back to avoid the wet ground.

Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

Think about what the Navy Seals go through. Here's some info:

Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied:

bob for 5 minutes
float for 5 minutes
swim 100 meters
bob for 2 minutes
do some forward and backward flips
swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth
return to the surface and bob five more times

Another evolution is surf torture, also called "cold water conditioning."

science.howstuffworks.com...

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.

Originally posted by platosallegory


To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

Yes, they are torture.

any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.[1]

Source

Originally posted by platosallegory
If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

Why does this have to be about liberals? There are people from all ends of the political spectrum who are disgusted with torture. Just because you consider yourself a conservative and you think we should torture doesn't mean all conservatives think like you do. And it also doesn't mean all liberals disagree with you. I can't believe someone would attempt to derail their own thread in such a manner, unless they truly wanted their topic to degrade into yet another silly left vs. right bicker-fest.


And its already been largely proven that torture is an ineffective way to get information from detainees:

U.S. intelligence officers say they have little—if any—evidence that useful intelligence has been obtained using techniques generally understood to be torture. It is clear, for instance, that Al Qaeda operations chief Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) was subjected to harsh interrogation techniques, including waterboarding. His interrogators even threatened, à la Jack Bauer, to go after his family. (KSM reportedly shrugged off the threat to his family—he would meet them in heaven, he said.) KSM did reveal some names and plots. But they haven’t panned out as all that threatening: one such plot was a plan by an Al Qaeda operative to cut down the Brooklyn Bridge—with a blow torch. Intelligence officials could never be sure if KSM was holding back on more serious threats, or just didn’t know of any.

Source


All we accomplish by torturing is destroying the American way of life. If you can't see that, then you're a traitor to your country.

reply to post by platosallegory


And what makes you 100% certain that they only do this to bona-fide terrorists? What makes you 100% certain that all the information given after using these methods is actually truthful? How many people have been released from G'tmo without charge after being held for years with no trial and enduring toture?

You signed up voluntarily to endure what you did. You made that choice. Many people don't have the luxury of volunteering AND getting paid for it. You got to run about in the rain, then go for a beer with your buddies after. Woopdidoo! That's a world away from what some people are enduring at the hands of your own government. And the fact you think that the two are even remotely similar shows how disconnected you are from the reality of it.

Think about it this way. How would you feel if you wife, your daughter, your son, was forced to sleep on a cold wet floor night after night, with no buddy to keep their back warm. If they had water continuously poured on their faces to make them gasp for air so they felt like they were going to drown. The were forced to sit or stand for long periods of time until they felt like their tendons were going to snap.

Yeah, if it happened to your family you'd change your mind.

Watch out for 'domestic terrorists'. They're next.

Again, this is not torture.

Sticking someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is not torture.

People spend more time under water at an amusement park.

This is just silly and dangerous and yes it has worked. It worked in LA and in New York.

Obama's own Intelligence officer said we got good information from using these thactics.

Again, if these things are torture then every American that served in the Armed Forces have been tortured by the US government in basic training.

I had to spend days living outside with bugs and you're going to cry about a guy being in a room with bugs?

I have spent more time drenched in water than these terrorist and you're going to cry because he's under water for 20-40 seconds with a Doctor on stand by?

That's silly and dangerous.

Even if you're going to stop using these tactics you don't let them know.

You should always keep them guessing.

And how are we going to get any information to help save lives if we can't waterboard, put them in a cold room or room with bugs and give them any discomfort?

This is a 9/10 mentality and the terrororist have to be jumping for joy that Americans are this stupid.

Originally posted by platosallegory

This is a 9/10 mentality and the terrororist have to be jumping for joy that Americans are this stupid.

Sound more like a 910 mentality alright...

910A.D

reply to post by platosallegory


basic training is designed as torture, of sorts. it is designed to break you mentally and build you up physically. the reason you don't feel tortured is that you signed up for it, know exactly what's happening and know exactly when it will all end.

the people who designed the torture being discussed were really, really careful to come up with techniques that were horrible to the person being tortured but could be brushed off afterward as "you're underwater longer at an amusement park". if you think it's like an amusement park, you can always book your next vacation at the guantanamo bay beach and spa resort.

above all else, torture is a hell of a lot less effective than other interrogation techniques, it's just that there are loads of sadistic freaks, that love the kind of power and control torture gives the torturer, in positions to interrogate. they use torture to give themselves a little power buzz.

reply to post by pieman


I signed up to protect and serve this country and not to be tortured.

If the government is going to say this silly nonsense is torture then I was tortured during basic training.

They say spending 20-40 seconds under water is torture.

I spend days drenched in water in basic training.

They say being in a room with bugs is torture.

I slept outside for days surrounded by bugs and had to dig holes with cheap tools.

I had to go on long hikes with heavy backpacks.

I had to wear a gas mask in 90 degree weather.

This stuff in the memo is not torture. What I did in basic training was 10x worse and Navy Seals are 100x times worse than what's in this memo.

People could care less about torture. This is politics plain and simple. The liberals see this as a way to go after the Bush Administration.

The republicans and democrats do it and it's silly. When they get in power, they want there pound of flesh from the other party.

In this case it's dangerous. This is not torture.

People stay under water longer at the YMCA swimming pool.

Funny, after I went through one of the hardest basic training procedures in the the world I learnt to THANK *snip* for those human rights "liberals". I had the same line of thinking that you do, but instead of keeping the empty headed mentality, I learned to appreciate basic human rights that these "liberals" fight for.

I guess it takes a certain type of person to justify torture....


Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by GAOTU789]

reply to post by platosallegory


You kinda pull it out of it's context there

If someone would do those torture techniques to you, then you would probably not experience it as such a bad thing because you have trained for it.
Isn't one of the reasons they train millitary this way simply so that they won't give away information to quickly when being REALLY captured and TORTURED by the enemy? You are trained, we expect of you to keep our secrets (so to speak)

If someone would do these things to me, a woman that has no military training at all, I would panic and probably tell them everything they want to hear within minutes.
That's why they call it "torture".

Basic training is in no way similar to being tortured.

For basic training you go through selection processes to have the "privilege" to endure it. After 12 weeks it will end and you will get to fulfil what you have been trying to achieve. If you can't hack it, you are free to leave.

Being tortured is designed to give you the impression that your only control over the situation is to submit. If you refuse, you will indefinitely undergo both physical and psychological torment until you divulge a piece of information. You CAN'T leave, there is no end goal, there is only pain.

Basic training compared to torture - what an utterly pathetic weak joke.
.
You know you are not going to die in basic training - unless you do something really stupid.

Torture is not knowing what will happen next or when it will happen.
Torture is not knowing whether or not your captures will kill you or if you will ever be free or ever see your loved ones again.
Having time altered by endless hours of bright lights or darkness. Endless hours of heat and cold.
Torture is when you are dying and your captures laugh at you.



[edit on 23-4-2009 by verylowfrequency]

Originally posted by platosallegory
Again, this is not torture.

Forcing anyone to endure physical or mental pain or suffering IS torture, regardless of how you may choose to view it.

Sticking someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is not torture.

And that's not what they do when waterboarding. So you either don't understand the technique or are refusing to do so. You're point is moot.

People spend more time under water at an amusement park.

You show me an amusement park that ties people up and forces them to almost drown, and i'll accept that you have a point there.

This is just silly and dangerous and yes it has worked. It worked in LA and in New York.

So they say. That depends how much you believe the government.

Obama's own Intelligence officer said we got good information from using these thactics.

Oh well then. I guess we better get in line like good little sheeple and take their word for it then. Move along, no innocent people being tortured to see here. There's a good citizen.

Again, if these things are torture then every American that served in the Armed Forces have been tortured by the US government in basic training.

What you endured is nothing like what they endure. You signed up voluntarily and got paid for it. You did it with your buddies and got to have a laugh with them after. You knew when it was going to start and when it was going to stop. You didn't have to endure the same thing day in day out repeatedly.

I had to spend days living outside with bugs and you're going to cry about a guy being in a room with bugs?

Nope, i'm crying about a man that's being tied up, blinded folded and forced into a small box against his will while being physically and mentally assaulted. That doesn't sound like camping.

I have spent more time drenched in water than these terrorist and you're going to cry because he's under water for 20-40 seconds with a Doctor on stand by?

We still come back to the fact you believe 100% of the people they do this to are terrorists. I bet you also think 100% of the people on death row have been guilty. You getting paid to run about with your pals in the rain is a million miles away from being tied up, blindfolded and made to feel like you're drowning. Repeated hundreds of times.

Maybe this will help you get mroe of a feel as to how it's different from you running about in the rain:

Waterboarding is torture - I did it myself, says US advisor

Even if you're going to stop using these tactics you don't let them know.

You should always keep them guessing.

Yeah, like having the rest of the world knowing that the US is willing to torture will help your foreign relations.

And how are we going to get any information to help save lives if we can't waterboard, put them in a cold room or room with bugs and give them any discomfort?

By using the other interrogation techniques that have worked well before the country sank so low as to use torture.

Just though I'd add that British and Australian SAS training requires applicants to pass torture training, such as sleep deprivation etc.

The fact that this training is so important shows that the other side (whoever that is) will also employ torture tactics.

reply to post by platosallegory


Pffft.
You think it's making you look macho?
I go through more than that on an average camping trip

(I think they should just make them cycle the Pennine route with wet,chafing underpants myself. )

Seriously,your logic is VERY flawed.

It's like saying,
"Let's drag them along a gravelled road on their arse for information.
It happened to me after a motorbike crash and I didn't think it was so bad."

All you're proving here is how army 'mental conditioning' just teaches you to obey authority figures without question.

Nice to know,however much liberty is lost,there will always be people such as yourself telling others it's 'not so bad'.
Gotta love your optimism at least..

The word you're missing here is 'CHOICE'.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by AGENT_T]

reply to post by GypsK


Of course we want them to panic, they helped plan the attack that killed thousands of Americans.

Why wouldn't we want them to panic?

Of course they think they are being drowned. That's the point.

There not being drowned being under water for 20-40 secionds with a Dr. on standby but we don't want them to know this.

Now they know this and they can just train to avoid it. This is why this is dangerous.

If Obama was going to stop these things then stop it but don't let them know that you're stopping it.

You have to keep them guessing.

This is dangerous and silly.

People stay under water longer at the YMCA swimming pool.

Basic training is harsher than anything in these memose and SEaL training isn't even in the same universe.

If you put these guys through SEAL hell week, they would beg to be waterboarded. Here's some info on hell week:

Pretty much every evolution during Hell Week involves the team (or boat crew) carrying their boat -- inflatable rubber Zodiacs -- over their heads. Timed exercises, runs, and crawling through mud flats are interspersed throughout the five-and-a-half days. The largest number of trainees drops out during Hell Week. This extreme training is critical, though. SEALs on missions must be able to operate efficiently, oblivious to sub-zero temperatures and their own physical comfort. Their lives, as well as the lives of others, may depend on it.

science.howstuffworks.com...

Ask any of these guys would they rather go through hell week or be waterboarded for 5 days.

This is not torture.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by platosallegory]

Originally posted by AGENT_T
reply to post by platosallegory

 

It's like saying,
"Let's drag them along a gravelled road on their arse for information.
It happened to me after a motorbike crash and I didn't think it was so bad."

I just about died laughing reading that

To the OP - you've ignored just about every point made against your argument and have again repeated yourself without tackling those points. If you want a debate, then debate. But please stop repeating yourself.

reply to post by Nammu


What points?

Nobody has refuted anything.

How is being put under water for 20-40 seconds harsher than Navy Seal training or doind drills in the pouring rain?

Nobody here has answered that because they can't.

Secondly, you have not answered as to how you will get information from these guys to save lives if you can't cause them any discomfort?

No responses so far, just liberal opinion about torture.

How is waterboarding harsher than SEAL training?

Wow, did they steal your logic and reasoning skills at basic, too?

Why wouldn't we want them to panic?

Of course they think they are being drowned. That's the point.

You just proved the point everyone is trying to make against you.

You signed up for Basic... you knew what Basic was.... you were aware of what was going on. The detainees are not. That is the biggest point and difference I want to make clear to you... you agreed to and signed up for the treatment you received. These people being detained and tortured are held against there will with no human rights whatsoever and we manipulate the situation so that they fear for their lives or well being. In Basic, you KNEW they weren't going to kill you. You may have thought you were going to die or that this was hell or whatever, but that's you letting your mind get weak. If you are a detainee being held against your will, with no human rights, with no trial, with no charges... you wouldn't past your captors to simply kill you. The situations you are trying to compare here are so freaking illogical that the cliche of "apples to oranges" doesn't even fit here. How about comparing oranges to aluminum?

You ran in rain? Congrats dude really. Anyone that's ever played American Football has played games that have been in either

reply to post by platosallegory


They did not kill anybody. The U.S. government backed up by Dick Cheney did 9/11 and now there's THOUSANDS of documents PROVING that they did it.

Experts from almost every field has proven that 9/11 "official" story makes no sense, and is only believed by the gullible majority.

Al Qaeda had NO CONNECTIONS with the WTC. It was Israel's Mossad backed by the CIA.

Do your research...

reply to post by platosallegory


Sorry, I'll type a bit slower then.

CHOICE..

Did you get it this time?

(I also missed the part where it says how much they get paid)

Take away choice and it becomes torture.
I pay good hard earned cash to do courses like those because I CHOOSE to.

Any recruit can CHOOSE to quit,CHOOSE to join

Barry Manilow is not registered as a restricted method of torture,but hell,I'd sell my soul to the devil if I had it played to me non-stop for more than a few minutes.

People on restricted diets find it 'torture'.
Ask a diabetic how much he'd love to have a great chunk of chocolate fudge cake..Because the CHOICE is taken away.

Any palace can become a prison cell when CHOICE is taken away.
....

BTW there are plenty of genuine,intelligent 'ex-forces' on ATS.

I'm pretty sure they will think the same as I,when I say this thread sounds more like it's coming from a dreaming teen with a recruiting magazine in front of him,rather than from someone who has completed any parts of an elite basic training course.