Torture? I went through worse in basic training, page 2

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reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 05:10 AM by bobbylove321

Of course there's the "OTHER" torture methods which were destroyed or hidden from public view.

Torture such as pulling your nails out with clippers, burning certain parts of your body, preventing you from breathing for certain periods of time, lack of food and nutrients, senseless beatings, mental and physical humiliations...

You can't believe what they tell you. They lied many times before, and they'll continue to lie.

"Oh but we only do waterboarding for 40 seconds...(whispers)..hey make sure you leave the parts about the dog biting his legs out of this..."

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 05:10 AM by Nammu

reply to post by platosallegory

See my previous post to that one. I'll repeat if it help:

How is being put under water for 20-40 seconds harsher than Navy Seal training or doind drills in the pouring rain?

Simply, because it is. You obviously do not understand what is involved in water boarding and the fact you think it is the same as running about in the rain with your army buddies is very strange to me. Waterboarding is not being put under water for 20-40 seconds. I usually don't revert to Wikipedia, but this may help explain what it involves:

en.wikipedia.org...

Secondly, you have not answered as to how you will get information from these guys to save lives if you can't cause them any discomfort?

Umm, yes i did, if you read back the posts. What d'you think they did before they sank so low as to use torture? Do you think they just didn't bother with anything?

I'd recommend some reading:

Effective interviewing and interrogation techniques By Nathan J. Gordon

Essentials of the Reid technique By Fred Edward Inbau, Joseph P. Buckley

No responses so far, just liberal opinion about torture.

Stop labelling everyone!! It just makes you look ignorant. There's been plenty of responses that you have ignored and repeated yourself again.

How is waterboarding harsher than SEAL training?

Because they volunteered, they're getting paid, they know when it'll start and when it'll stop, they're not made to feel like they are going to die, they get to do it with friends, they are not physically abused, they are not mentally abused, they do not have to endure this every day without knowing when it'll stop, they are not tied up, they are not blindfolded, they are not held against their will, they are not prisoners, they are not being interrogated day in day out every day. Man, how many times!

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Nammu]

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Nammu]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 06:25 AM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by platosallegory

I think you sound disgruntled and a little whiny

did they not tell you what all would be involved when you signed up?

emphasis on the words "signed up"

Torture? I went through worse in basic training I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army. I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups. We also went on a field exercise in a storm and had to sleep on the side of the road in wet leaves and grass, It was so wet me and my battle buddy had to sleep back to back to avoid the wet ground....

.... Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied: bob for 5 minutes float for 5 minutes swim 100 meters bob for 2 minutes do some forward and backward flips swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth return to the surface and bob five more times Another evolution is surf torture, also called "cold water conditioning." science.howstuffworks.com...

this is training, preparation - not torture

you don't understand what torture is - you've never experienced it for yourself

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form. If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information? Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.

you may not understand what it is, and you clearly don't understand why it's wrong - but going by what you're saying here - and in your other torture thread - I'd say you're very, very interested in it

I can't make you see what you're not seeing - or understand what you refuse to understand

so I'll just have to leave it at - I'm very disturbed by the things you're willing to accept

even more disturbed by the things you apparently want

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 07:28 AM by neformore

Originally posted by platosallegory
If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.

You are, then - by application of your own logic - willing to accept and actually promote that such methods be used against US troops/combatants/spies should they be captured in a war zone by opposing forces?

You have no concerns about that at all?

You would have no worries, or concerns if - say- Roxana Saberi was waterboarded, subjected to sleep deprivation etc, by the Iranians because they believe she is a US spy?

You expressed no concern, and we re perfectly happy with the treatment of Prisoners of War under Saddam Husseins regime in Iraq in 91 and 2003?

After all - Geneva convention aside - the Iraqi's were only seeing things from the perspective that you appear to be. Their country was threatened, and they needed any intelligence that they could get. You were fine with that then?

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 07:28 AM by on_yur_6

reply to post by platosallegory

I agree, this whole thing is a joke and another way for our communist president to undermine our country. I'm so tired of all of this whining about torture. You want to know what torture is like? Talk to a WW2 vet. My grandfather hated the Japanese until the day he died. He just couldn't get it out of his head.

Well Obama's unintended consequence is that our soldiers will now kill every terrorist they come in contact with instead of capturing them. All of them know that the current administration will do nothing but release the person so they have to capture them again.

Stop your crying and whining and get a spine about torture. If the life of one of your loved ones depended upon getting information through "so called" torture or good ol' fashioned torture you would have no problem with it. If you did, you are a coward and should go hide in a corner and suck your thumb. Let real men and women make the important decisions for you.

Drop and give me 50 you spineless whimps!

6 out.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 08:00 AM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by on_yur_6

very impressive mister ---- Pissed - I can see that you're a very strong - very brave man

I'm so tired of all of this whining about torture. You want to know what torture is like? Talk to a WW2 vet. My grandfather hated the Japanese until the day he died. He just couldn't get it out of his head....

why do you think that is?

do you actually believe then that other human beings are less human than your grandfather?

their pain is less important somehow?

If the life of one of your loved ones depended upon getting information through "so called" torture or good ol' fashioned torture you would have no problem with it.

torture is wrong - we don't abuse each other - that's all there is to it

wrong is wrong - it doesn't change according to circumstance

you would rather do the easy thing than the right thing

life is hard - and the right thing to do is seldom the easy thing to do - but I'm seeing that you live your life by doing what's expedient

it's lazy - at the very, very - very least

and cruelty is a sign of weakness - not of strength

If you did, you are a coward and should go hide in a corner and suck your thumb. Drop and give me 50 you spineless whimps!

now you just sound like a cartoon - and you misspelled wimps

Let real men and women make the important decisions for you.

I think that's what is actually happening right now - you just don't recognize who they are

[edit on 4/23/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 08:38 AM by Nammu

Originally posted by on_yur_6
reply to post by platosallegory

You want to know what torture is like? Talk to a WW2 vet. My grandfather hated the Japanese until the day he died. He just couldn't get it out of his head.

And then.....

Stop your crying and whining and get a spine about torture.

You're post makes me laugh because I'm not sure if you realise what you're saying here.

Ok, so lets get this one straight. It sounds like you're saying your grandfather was tortured by the Japanese, or at least heard horrible stories about torture. It sounds like he had a hard time if it caused him to hate an entire country of people until his dying day. I'm can't begin to comprehend what he may have endured and thank him for his service.

So you then think it's ok to torture others? Even after knowing what your grandfather went through or the stories he was told about what they would do if they captured you, how horrible that was for them all, the pain, the suffering and how that affected him and other servicemen for the rest of their life?

So, if you believe it is acceptable for us to torture others, then you must also accept that it is ok for them to torture us?

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 08:44 AM by marg6043

reply to post by platosallegory

Yes, perhaps is true after all my husband is a retired Marine, he end up in a hospital with a bad reaction to mosquito bites after been submerged in a swamp for 12 hours, but guess what you are forgetting that while you volunteer for the basic training torture, the human beings that our government tortured were not.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by marg6043]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 08:45 AM by C0bzz

Stop your crying and whining and get a spine about torture. If the life of one of your loved ones depended upon getting information through "so called" torture or good ol' fashioned torture you would have no problem with it. If you did, you are a coward and should go hide in a corner and suck your thumb. Let real men and women make the important decisions for you.

And if you and your loved ones are illegally detained and tortured for years without charge will I protest to help get you out? Of course I will - because unlike YOU I am still Human. There is NO excuse for illegal waterboarding - NONE - it's proved to be not as effective as other means.

And because your grand father had been tortured so he hated the Japanese for life - obviously traumatized - makes it somehow OK to do the same? After all, even without any evidence at all - your grandfather still could of been commiting atrocities. If you can justify torturing detainees then you're justifying the torture of your Grand Father. Anything less is hypocricy.

[edit on 23/4/2009 by C0bzz]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 08:47 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by platosallegory
I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

You forgot to mention NBC training and the gas chamber.

That was awful. The only thing worse was when I dropped a kidney stone.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:04 AM by Seany

reply to post by AGENT_T

I was waiting for it , they always play the Barry Manilow card .

I make a lot of threads , but i dont BS myself in them.

I never seen ufo, no paranormal skills, nada. No alien friends.

No military training,

I would find this torture, I have a deep respect for water,-drowning.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:20 AM by george_gaz

I understand what the OP is saying.

That if you take water-boarding and put it against SEAL water training, that what the SEALs do is tougher.

However, I fear that the OP may have taken the concept out of context some what. As individual events, yes I am of the opinion that water-boarding would be "easier" to endure than the SEAL training.
However, when you apply contextual characteristics to this (being water-boarded having had no sleep, not knowing where your family are, having been sat and chained in a specific position for days on end, etc.) it does become much more of a nightmare.

I think it is about weighing up the pro's and con's. As stated before, useful evidence has come from this torture (but at what cost?) and I believe that such techniques should be allowed to extract information because we are playing with the lives here in the targeted cities.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:24 AM by george_gaz

Originally posted by marg6043

you are forgetting that while you volunteer for the basic training torture, the human beings that our government tortured were not.

Did they not sign up for it too?
How can you be so certain?

If the person is guilty (i.e. a terrorist) then, yes, they did sign up for it when they chose to become a "freedom fighter". They knew full well that if they were captured, they would be interrogated/tortured.

Does anybody have any information regarding the innocents in Guantanamo?
I would be very interested to see the ratio of innocent to guilty. We often (here in th UK) see a small article in the paper regarding a man leaving Guantanamo and returning to their country to cause more havoc.
However, then you need to question ... were they a terrorist before they were imprisoned? Or did the torture enrage them to a point of becoming a terrorist?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by george_gaz]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:24 AM by on_yur_6

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

Comparing actual torture that happenned in WW2 to what has been done to the Arab terrorists is an absolute joke. If you wish to also be a spell check nazi, go become a public school teacher like other liberals.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:29 AM by earthman4

If anyone thinks basic training is worse than toruture, we will pay you twice what you made in the military if you will allow yourself to be tortured as we did at Guantanamo. Any takers?

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:31 AM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by dodgygeeza

this is very meaningful to me

I wanted to repeat this - just so no one would miss it

Funny, after I went through one of the hardest basic training procedures in the the world I learnt to THANK F*** for those human rights "liberals".

exactly - all it takes is that one brief moment of realization - of understanding - of compassion

I love that liberals is in quotes :-)

I actually know more than a few "conservatives" that are completely against torture

it's not about liberal or conservative - it's about human rights

and people who think

I guess it takes a certain type of person to justify torture....

it does

but to be fair - it's a fear based and panicky justification - and none of us is immune to the effects of fear or panic

it's when we stop considering, feeling, thinking - that's when this becomes dangerous

fear sometimes gives us permission to be so much less than what we really are - or want to be

I love that you have the ability to change your mind

I love that you think

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:41 AM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by george_gaz

Does anybody have any information regarding the innocents in Guantanamo? I would be very interested to see the ratio of innocent to guilty.

I personally believe torture is wrong - regardless

it reduces the torturer to nothing less vile than the person he tortures - assuming that the person he's torturing is vile

and that's a huge problem with your argument right there

even if we were to agree that some people got it coming - they deserve to be tortured - are you really willing to turn it into a numbers game?

meaning - torture everybody - assuming that some of them deserve it - the rest are just hapless extras - there are no consequences for torturing innocent people?

no concern whatsoever about being certain efforts are being focused on the right people?

what it says to me is that this is about vengeance - nothing less

it says that people are willing to make people pay - innocents be damned

[edit on 4/23/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 09:50 AM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by on_yur_6

oh - it's so clear that you just don't understand

Comparing actual torture that happenned in WW2 to what has been done to the Arab terrorists is an absolute joke.

first of all - you assume too much when you claim to know exactly what has and hasn't been done to the Arab terrorists

if it comforts you to believe we've been going easy on them - all I can say is - I've already figured you like to take the easy way out - your conscience doesn't get all mussed up that way

morally - do you think torture is acceptable at all? is it really about degree to you - it's OK if it's not "real" torture

interesting

If you wish to also be a spell check nazi, go become a public school teacher like other liberals.

first - quit telling people what to do - until you can demonstrate that you know what to do

also, you keep using the word liberals like it's a bad thing

I don't understand

:-)

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 10:09 AM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by george_gaz

I apologize