It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Imago Dei
Evidently not everyone will be saved, but that is not to say that everyone can be saved. Salvation is a free gift to all to be accepted or rejected by all as freewill dictates in each individual case.
God does not predestine some for heaven and some for hell. He does know the choices people will make however.
Jesus said, I told you and you do not believe. They still had the opportunity to be told and they chose not to believe, other wise he wouldn't have bothered telling them or even opening his mouth to speak to them. What it appears you are intimating is they had no choice in the matter as it was predestined. Ie to be of Christ's flock or not.
That my friend is calvanisim, sorry.
Clearly we dont become a member of His flock until we believe,
"Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock." (Jn 10:25-26)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." (Re 13:8)
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Eph 1:4)
"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed," (Ac 18:27)
If any part of predestination where true, there would be no need to bother attempting to reason together or to rightly divide the word of truth or to get out if bed in the morning for that matter.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Ro 8:29-30)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is 55:8-9)
So, to clarify, one is predistined after having made the decision of freewil to accept Christ - one is not predestined to accept Christ. Understand your bible, dont just read it. In all your getting get understanding.
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Free will is an illusion.
Does the dew on the morning grass get to choose if its a part of 'water' or not?
The exact same concept can be reflected onto us and rather if we can or cant decide if we are a part of God.
The destiny is for 'all light'. There is a way for all and that is the love of God.
The soul may keep rebuking and bucking against this idea....but it is denying their very existence . Eventually the negative attachments to this flesh body will abandon the primal self and its 'separate' experience for one can not continue on to the highest without doing this.
So free will is a illusion...really, we only think that we get a choice. This isnt a bad thing...or good thing (which is where many just cant see past this part or thought)....but yet its an order/law/the way.
But for some to think....and here comes the kicker.....that 'some' can be destined to be 'saved or choisen' but not others....that is what tells what nature one is following in. There is no favorites, individuality is not something to hang on to...it is not what is important.
What is important, is offering of self for others. Please, consider Jesus with this thought.
It is not about individual salvation or destiny. Its about becoming a part of the divine will of Thee (which is using love to others) to be a beacon here and now for those who may not see any love in their lives.
I remember when deeply meditating/praying with Jesus one time how the thought came to my mind of if I could offer myself for a loving message to others. Many thoughts came fast and my discernment was restless for a moment...but I knew, deep down I knew and I felt that calm spot in the gutt that one feels when they know they are secure....I knew, there was no other way. I experience my death in a dream shortly after this experience and it helped give me strength that this is not the life we are to fight for. By fighting for this life....this action in itself....can blemish a light/soul.
It is destiny that the light returns, just as it is destiny for the seed to return to the Earth to grow another tree.
Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Imago Dei
You miss the point. If you are a part of something...unconditionally...it cant be denied...it just is. Thee has made a way for all of us to come to know this and this is what will lead everyone home....knowing who we are...where and who we emanated from. What it is that gives us life.
In the flesh one can deny it...but not when we are in the spirit body...we see and humbled.
What in the world you keep bringing up the you tube videos...
What have I said that has lead you to believe that I believe in something because it is on a you tube video?? The video in my signature was made by me...the 2 people are me and my mother...it is us sharing a experience with others. Surely that is not the video you are referring to or responding at...and if so, it is my own video....not someone else.
Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei
I'm in a cult? Why? Because some stupid website says I am? The Living Church of God is a cult? Let's see.... Just what makes it a cult?
-The fact that this church doesn't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but instead celebrates the 7 holy day feasts commanded in the bible and followed by Jesus and the first century church?
-Because we believe that hell is a permanent death because God is merciful and the true greek and hebrew in the bible speaks differently of hell since that word isn't even mentioned in those languages?
-Because we believe body and soul are one and the same and that when we die, we stay dead until our appointed resurrection?
-Because we don't believe heaven is meant for mankind? (John 3:13).
-Because we believe in following ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS including the 4th commandment of honoring the 7th day Sabbath?
-Because we refrain from unclean meats like pork, lobster, catfish, and shrimp?
-Because my church gives freely to all who request their literature or multimedia?
-Because the pastors of the church will go out of the way to meet you and answer any questions you have about the church and their beliefs?
What is it? I don't get it. There's nothing there showing this church to be a cult. It's more or less a church that still follows the traditions of their jewish roots. You can call us "Judeo-Christian" but to call us a cult is a little bit arrogant. We ain't drinking the red kool-ade or claiming to be prophets or gods. We don't believe in aliens comeing down and "rapturing" us away or anything. You want to list a religion as a cult, look to scientology and polygamists. Me and my church are a far cry from a cult.
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—" (Ro 9:21-23)
Gods foreknowledge, simply means that God knew I would receive the free gift of salvation becuase he is God He knows everything. He did not however predestine me to be saved, He predestined me to be conforimed to his image after I was saved. Your right, evidently not many understand the meaning of predestination in context.
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Eph 1:4)
"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”" (Ro 9:11-15)
Dear man, I know you mean well, but in my opinion, you are a member of a cult. You deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ for a start off.
Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei
Dear man, I know you mean well, but in my opinion, you are a member of a cult. You deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ for a start off.
Okay, now you are makeing false accusations and putting words in my mouth! Never once did I deny the divinity of Christ. I don't think He is the same being as God. He is the Son of God, sent by God. All things were created through Christ as the "Word" of God (John 1:1-3). He was the "Spokesperson" of God. If a human heard God speaking, it was Jesus speaking on behalf of God. I am a unitarian, not a trinitarian (false doctrine) that teaches 3 beings to be 1 being. The Holy Spirit isn't even a being. It's the Force or Power of God working in humans. You are a manipulative virus on this thread spreading lies about certain people and defining them as a "cult" just because their belief structure differs. Do you consider the Roman Catholics to be a cult? How about mormons. What about pentacostals who have siezures thanks to the Holy Spirit? How do I differ? I think by your definition of a cult, I could consider any trinitarian a "cult" since clearly Jesus wasn't praying to Himself. Get off your high horse and read your bible for what it really says!
Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Imago Dei
"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—" (Ro 9:21-23)
It is not a different subject - everyone has free will about the Gospel or they don't. Truth is not relative to your convenience.
If everyone has a "free will" choice about the Gospel. Please explain how the Indians that lived in North America had a free will choice about Jesus Christ before European Christians came to North America.
Gods foreknowledge, simply means that God knew I would receive the free gift of salvation becuase he is God He knows everything. He did not however predestine me to be saved, He predestined me to be conforimed to his image after I was saved. Your right, evidently not many understand the meaning of predestination in context.
Think about what you are saying. If he predestined you to be conformed to his image - then it would necessary for you to be saved. You can not be conformed to his image if you are not saved. Predestined is before you do anything by logical necessity. Or it would not be "pre". You just pushed the problem up a level. False doctrine. Plain and simple pagan humanism not Biblical Christianity.
You responded before with a logical fallacy = "predestined after"? Now you just pushed it up a level. It is fallacious.
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Eph 1:4)
Better yet - try to explain this...
"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”" (Ro 9:11-15)
Works based (choice) salvation is the same doctrine as the cults teach. I know you don;t want to accept it - that is your humanism. I have it too.
I understand its a hard teaching but its what the bible says.
The funny part is the Calvinists I know think I am too liberal.
[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]