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Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

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posted on Apr, 21 2009 @ 09:37 PM
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One of the greatest conspiracies within Christendom is the doctrine of "Hellfire" or "Hell"
Below is the basic theology and doctrine, it may deviate slightly from church to church but basically this is it


Hell, in Christian beliefs, is a place or a state in which the souls of the unsaved will suffer the consequences of sin. The Christian doctrine of hell derives from the teaching of the New Testament, where hell is typically described using the Greek words Gehenna or Tartarus. Unlike Hades, Sheol, or "purgatory" it is eternal, and those damned to hell are without hope. In the New Testament, it is described as the place or state of punishment after death or last judgment for those who have rejected Jesus. In many classical and popular depictions it is also the abode of the devil and of evil spirits. Hell is generally defined as the eternal fate of unrepentant sinners after this life. Hell's character is inferred from biblical teaching, which has often been understood literally. Souls are said to pass into hell by God's irrevocable judgment, either immediately after death (particular judgment) or in the general judgment. Modern theologians generally describe hell as the logical consequence of the soul using its free will to reject the will of God. It is considered compatible with God's justice and mercy because God will not interfere with the soul's free choice. In some older English translations of the Bible (such as the KJV), the word "hell" is used to translate certain words such as sheol (Hebrew) and hades (Greek). These words do not typically refer to the place of eternal punishment, but to the underworld or temporary abode of the dead.


Opposition to this doctrine began early in the 20th century


In what later appeared to be an attempt by the Pittsburgh ministerial alliance to discredit C. T. Russell’s scholarship and Biblical views, on March 10, 1903, Dr. E. L. Eaton, minister of the North Avenue Methodist Episcopal Church, challenged Russell to a six-day debate. During each session of this debate, held that autumn in Allegheny’s Carnegie Hall, on the whole Russell came off victorious. Among other things, he Scripturally maintained that the souls of the dead are unconscious while their bodies are in the grave and that the object of both Christ’s second coming and the millennium is the blessing of all the families of the earth. Russell also made a very strong Biblical denial of the hellfire doctrine. Reportedly, one clergyman approached him after the last session of the debate and said: “I am glad to see you turn the hose on hell and put out the fire.” Interestingly, after this debate many members of Eaton’s congregation became Bible Students.


Where we need to start is with our Greek And Hebrew and what the transliteration actually is.

Transliteration is the representation of a foreign word by rendering the spelling in the alphabet of another language

Hell is only an English word and that is key to understanding this false doctrine.
Many translations of the bible insert "Hell" instead of using the following proper words, this confuses people. They are Sheol, Hades, Gehenna & Tartarus

Sheol


Sheol (pronounced "Sheh-ole"), in Hebrew שאול (Sh'ol), The common Gave of Mankind; Gravedom
Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.


The following scripture shows how a bible reader could get confused, but then common sense comes into play.
Job 14 verse 13
Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I wish you would hide me in Sheol and keep me hidden there until your anger cools. Set a specific time for me when you will remember me.

Bible in Basic English
If only you would keep me safe in the underworld, putting me in a secret place till your wrath is past, giving me a fixed time when I might come to your memory again!

New Living English
I wish you would hide me in the grave
and forget me there until your anger has passed.
But mark your calendar to think of me again!



So what was Job really saying here, he wanted to go to hell, to be safe and protected, does that make any sense? No he wanted to die and go to the grave, and then be remembered by God to be resurrected at a later date.
He knew the principle behind Ecclesiastes 9 verse 10
Amplified Bible
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the place of the dead), where you are going.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Whatever presents itself for you to do, do it with [all] your might, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or skill in the grave where you're going.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in hell, whither thou art hastening

Previously Ecclesiastes 9 verses 5 & 6 tell us the state of those in Sheol
5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.


Death=non-existence=Sheol=common grave
Hell=Fictitious place of torment which was heavily sponsored by the church when the clergy taught this, hiding the true meaning of Sheol from the people.

Hades


Hades (from Greek ᾍδης, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs, probably from Proto-Indo-European *n̥-wid- "the unseen place"
It also is the equivalent of the Latin word infernus which is again translated mistakenly into hell.

In Acts 2 verse 27 Peter quotes Psalms to link Hades and Sheol, so they are the same
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.

King James Bible
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Psalm 16 verse 10
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
because you do not abandon my soul to the grave or allow your holy one to decay.

King James Bible
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Even Jesus spent some time in Hades as shown in Acts 2 verse 31
American Standard Version
he foreseeing this'spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
David knew that the Messiah would come back to life, and he spoke about that before it ever happened. He said that the Messiah wouldn't be left in the grave and that his body wouldn't decay.

King James Bible
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Thus Hades=Sheol=non-existence but with a hope of future life.


Next post will deal with Gehenna and Tartarus




posted on Apr, 21 2009 @ 09:59 PM
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I always thought it odd that the bible referred to Hades, a Greek mythical underworld. I wondered if there was the River Styx as well, where you'd need to pay the toll to the ferrie. I also wondered if by default there was a Mount Olympus by default too. It was all very strange.

If Hades existed, should Pluto not also exist?

Anywho, for thing thought provoking OP, S & F.

[edit on 21-4-2009 by Welfhard]



posted on Apr, 21 2009 @ 10:43 PM
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Gehenna



Symbol of Complete Destruction
Heb., גי הנם (geh hin·nom′, “valley of Hinnom”);
Gr., γέεννα (ge′en·na); Lat., ge·hen′na

“Gehenna” means “valley of Hinnom,” for it is the Greek form of the Hebrew geh hin·nom′. In Jos 18:16, where “valley of Hinnom” occurs, LXX reads “Gehenna.”
The valley of Hinnom lay to the west and south of ancient Jerusalem. (Jos 15:8; 18:16; Jer 19:2, 6) Under the later kings of Judah it was used for the idolatrous worship of the pagan god Molech, to which god human sacrifices were offered by fire. (2Ch 28:3; 33:6; Jer 7:31, 32; 32:35) To prevent its use again for such religious purposes, faithful King Josiah had the valley polluted, particularly the part called Topheth.—2Ki 23:10.

The Jewish commentator David Kimḥi (1160?-1235?), in his comment on Ps 27:13, gives the following historical information concerning “Gehinnom”: “And it is a place in the land adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom.”

The valley of Hinnom became the dumping place and incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown in to be consumed in the fires to which sulphur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of a decent burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown in. If such dead bodies landed in the fire they were consumed, but if their carcasses landed upon a ledge of the deep ravine their putrefying flesh became infested with worms, or maggots, which did not die until they had consumed the fleshy parts, leaving only the skeletons.

No living animals or human creatures were pitched into Gehenna to be burned alive or tormented. Hence, the place could never symbolize an invisible region where human souls are tormented eternally in literal fire or attacked forever by undying worms. Because the dead criminals cast there were denied a decent burial in a memorial tomb, the symbol of the hope of a resurrection, Gehenna was used by Jesus and his disciples to symbolize everlasting destruction, annihilation from God’s universe, or “second death,” an eternal punishment.

Therefore, to have one’s dead body cast into Gehenna was considered the worst kind of punishment. From the literal Gehenna and its significance, the symbol of the ‘lake burning with fire and sulphur’ was drawn.—Re 19:20; 20:14, 15; 21:8.

What's interesting is that death & hell/hades get thrown into it, seems strange, they aren't alive, so they can't die.

Revelation 20 verse 14
International Standard Version (©2008)
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death-the lake of fire.)

King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

How can hell/hades/death have a second death??? They don't.

Gehenna=Lake of fire=Second Death=non-existence with no hope of a return for all eternity.

So when that scripture is fulfilled Hades no longer exists, if somebody dies after this scripture is fulfilled they don't go to Hades, they go into Gehenna which is non-existence, for some it will be literally a second death because they will have come out of Hades only to rebel against God after period of time. That's what John 5 verses 28 & 29 speaks about

28 Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.
Notice it says "continue in evil", thats right they are not judged on their past sins, only if they persist in evil and bad ways after God brings them back from the grave/hades/sheol will they then go into Gehenna experiencing the second death.

It is permanent destruction of soul and body as Jesus warned about in
Matthew 10 verse 28

Young's Literal Translation
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Stop being afraid of those who kill the body but can't kill the soul. Instead, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
This is also another example of poor translation as we have clearly shown the difference between gehenna and hades and hell, again this misleads the common bible reader.


Tartarus


“Tartarus”
2Pe 2:4—“By throwing them into Tartarus”
Gr., Tar·ta·ro′sas; Lat., de·trac′tos in Tar′ta·rum;
Syr., ‛a·gen ’e·nun beThach·ta·ya·th
“Tartarus” is found only in 2Pe 2:4. It is included in the Greek verb tar·ta·ro′o, and so in rendering the verb, the phrase “by throwing them into Tartarus” has been used.

In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tar′ta·ros denotes an underground prison as far below Hades as the earth is below heaven. Those confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods, spirits, namely, Cronus and the other Titans who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter). It was the prison established by the mythical gods for the spirits whom they had driven from the celestial regions, and it was below the Hades where human souls were thought to be confined at death. In mythology tar′ta·ros was the lowest of the lower regions and a place of darkness. It enveloped all the underworld just as the heavens enveloped all that was above the earth. Therefore, in pagan Greek mythology tar′ta·ros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits, and a place of darkness and abasement.

The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tar′ta·ros but consign there only spirit creatures, namely, “the angels that sinned.” Their being cast into tar′ta·ros denotes the deepest abasement for them while they are still living. This serves as punishment for their sin of rebellion against the Most High God. The apostle Peter associates darkness with their low condition, saying that God “delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”—2Pe 2:4.

The pagans in their mythological traditions concerning Cronus and the rebellious Titan gods presented a distorted view regarding the abasement of rebellious spirits. In contrast, Peter’s use of the verb tar·ta·ro′o, “cast into Tartarus,” does not signify that “the angels that sinned” were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus, but that they were abased by the Almighty God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God’s bright purposes. Also they had only a dark outlook as to their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels.

In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades, which is the common grave of the human dead. The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar′ta·ros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures. Tartarus will pass away when the Supreme Judge destroys the rebellious angels presently in that condition of abasement.

2 Peter 2 verse 4
International Standard Version (©2008)
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell and imprisoned them in chains of deepest darkness, holding them for judgment;

Young's Literal Translation
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,

Again poor translation that misleads.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 12:55 AM
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Abyss



Less controversial but some might think Satan is in hell here.
He isn't, again there no Hell, in fact Satan never goes into hades/sheol that's only for humans that die.

Revelation 20 verse 3
International Standard Version (©2008)
He threw him into the bottomless pit, locked it, and sealed it over him to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were over. After that he must be set free for a little while.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Bible in Basic English
And put him into the great deep, and it was shut and locked over him, so that he might put the nations in error no longer, till the thousand years were ended: after this he will be let loose for a little time.

No humans ever go into this Abyss, in that way it is related to Tartarus but it's not the same. Satan and his Demons have no mobility in this jail like location.

Hypothetical scenario
Imagine a spirit trapped at the very bottom of the Mariana Trench, because it doesn't need food, water or oxygen to survive, it could exist there. But it also has no ability to affect anybody or anything. It would have no ability to even know what was happening on the earth.
We don't know if Satan will even be conscience for this period of time, whatever the situation, being in the Abyss, takes away all his power over humanity.

Revelation 20 verse 7
International Standard Version (©2008)
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be freed from his prison.

Amplified Bible
7And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his place of confinement,

The Message
7When the thousand years are up, Satan will be let loose from his cell


It sure seems like the Abyss is the equivalent of solitary confinement for a spirit.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:07 AM
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Very interesting ....I will have to do some studying on all of this myself ..because now you have me curious ....I dont really study hell because I really dont want to know ...
But you layed it all out very nicely ..well done ..
star for ya for the homework at least .....

You Said {It is permanent destruction of soul and body as Jesus warned about }

If the above is true after the Final Judgment or second death ...it does prove once and for all that reincarnation is not an option ....I have noticed alot of Christians buying into the idea of reincarnation .



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Some say that Hell is here on earth, and that we are living through it right now.

Also, there is a strong argument for Satan being king of this earth, for example, when he tries to tempt Jesus by saying that he would give him rule over the earth - if it wasn't his to give, how could he have offered it?

Just a thought, and I am not sure where I stand on this.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by spellbound
 


if it wasn't his to give, how could he have offered it?


Conmen offer what they don't have... Just a thought.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:31 AM
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If people use their heart, they'll surely know that a Loving God doesn't condemn soul to eternal damnation. But what I often see is, creed over deed, lust to hate over love.

Meaning.. that kind of religious people like to feed their hatred rather than the opposite. But why a believer of God does that, since it's practically appeasing "the devil".

Anger and frustration are supposed to be a temporary state. But they have become a part of people's character.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:32 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


In this one there is hell but isn't an eternal punishment

www.tentmaker.org...

In my own hypothesis, the final hell and destruction will be in a Black Hole
en.wikipedia.org...

But the eternal nature of destruction/punishment is uncertain because we don't know what goes on beyond the event horizon of a black hole. But to the outside observer, the destruction will appear to take place eternally due to the effects of Time Dilation, but to poor soul, it may only be a fleeting experience, not an eternal torture but they still be destroyed nevertheless.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:35 AM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


That is a great observation.

But Jesus would have known who ruled the earth, so therefore couldn't be conned.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:46 AM
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From reading the Bible, and learning original interpretations of certain words that have in modern times been slowly changed to mean slightly different things, I personally have concluded that HELL is permanent death.

I am leaning toward Christianity, though still trying to understand a number of things, so I can't say "Hey, I'm a Christian!".... and while I do think that people that have gone out of their way to cause immense suffering and pain in this world will be punished more according to their behaviour etc, I don't think that the punishment is eternal.

This whole idea of 'eternal hellfire' was used by the Catholic church to manipulate/scare people into religious beliefs. And can be traced back to them. (Yes I'm too lazy to go find all the resources right now and I'm sure if you care that much you'll go do it yourself.....as did I)

So what I am going to say is what I understand the Bible says, not what I am certainly certain of as of yet....don't get me wrong...
But many Bible verses support that the dead know nothing, are completely unconscious, that they will be resurrected once to see basically the proof that God was real, experience a clear understanding of what they were to the world, the sick things they did, feel the remorse, which is the torture, and God will punish them PRECISELY as they deserve and then they turn into unconscious ashes and disappear from the universe forever.
Some people will experience it as just going to sleep, but those that somehow knew/believed that God was real and still went out of their way to cause harm, sadness, destruction get to experience the wrath of God towards those things.
And anyways, if sin is this whole lesson for the universe, this whole glitch in creation, why would God want to eternalize it by punishing 'sin' forever - those consciously supporting sin, that is, or those not accepting the sacrifice for it, or WHATEVER.... why the H E doublehockeysticks would THAT of all things be eternalized? That's just twisted....but that may be my weak human understanding, who knows...
Sorry, if God really is just, then this is the only way the Bible makes sense concerning hell/punishment.....that punishment is proportionate to the misdeeds and no more.
Some people say "Well the reason punishment in hell is eternal is because you've sinned against an eternal God!"
Frankly, I can't imagine a God that would allow that. I know ultimately that God is who he is regardless of what I can imagine, but if there is anything that needs to add up in the whole Biblical message, between hellfire and God being just, this is the only way, I'm near certain.
Because that would be torturing the saved just as much, knowing that their loved ones that were not saved were tortured disproportionately to their finite activities on the finite Earth.
It's bogus. I think that eternal torture in hell is just a whole concoction of men, twisting of words over time, misinterpretation of the Bible and convenient semantics formulated over time to support those misinterpretations which have plenty of contradictions within the Bible itself.

There are all those verses going on about "the smoke of their torment rising forever and ever' adn all that stuff...
Well in the original language "forever and ever' meant the RESULT of the action to be permanent, not that the fire continued forever.
The Bible also makes reference to a pit that was used to burn crucified bodies, and says they burned "forever". Um....anyone know of a pit near Rome still burning bodies that are thousands of years old, to this day?
Didn't think so....
It's somewhat of a figure of speach slash evolution of our definition for 'everlasting' and 'forever and ever' and conveniently so, for the Big Cheese (people controlling influential Christian groups to manipulate the masses)

Hell means 'the grave" and always has. People have decided otherwise for the sake of power. It's that simple, IMO......



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:50 AM
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Good thread, you got the rare star and flag from me. I only give out maybe a few a month, so that is saying something.

It all pretty much agrees with my understanding, and I don't find it disagreeable at all. Those things make alot more sense than "hell".

Personally, I think we are in "hell" now, as the church describes it anyway. We suffer from our sins now, and suffer in a world full of sin. Satan is the prince/ruler of this world and so forth. All the things you find about hell I see on earth in certain places etc.

The only thing I can think of is that none of the places people go are actual "places". When you are unconscious, then you are no where, non existent as a soul and so forth. This is somewhat highlighted in Job where is says "remember me then". Because without getting in too long of a post, we are basically just "thoughts" of the father, "what ifs" and so forth.

Also, when it says comes to the graves and they rise etc, and then if they reject god after that, then 2nd death. I can explain this. What happens is they are risen up and when they are risen up they will that time know the truth and have understanding. People today live in darkness and without understanding on this earth, so they are excused(gotta learn and experience this evil to gain knowledge). If at that point you reject things, then you are just plain "wicked". Then you've gone from being ignorant and blind, to just being ignorant.

This is why Jesus says blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. When they are risen from the grave, then they will know the truth, and they will accept it and not reject the father. Only those who know the truth and reject it(wicked) need to worry.

As well, all things of the father will return. ALL things. That means all our souls and so forth. When it talks about being the grave and not wisdom and such not being present, it's because god is no longer present in them(god within us is what gives us those things). When the soul dies, it just means you have been absorbed by the father, where as the living soul maintains it's individuality(although eventually even those will return to the father, another topic tho).



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
Good thread, you got the rare star and flag from me. I only give out maybe a few a month, so that is saying something.

It all pretty much agrees with my understanding, and I don't find it disagreeable at all. Those things make alot more sense than "hell".

Personally, I think we are in "hell" now, as the church describes it anyway. We suffer from our sins now, and suffer in a world full of sin. Satan is the prince/ruler of this world and so forth. All the things you find about hell I see on earth in certain places etc.

The only thing I can think of is that none of the places people go are actual "places". When you are unconscious, then you are no where, non existent as a soul and so forth. This is somewhat highlighted in Job where is says "remember me then". Because without getting in too long of a post, we are basically just "thoughts" of the father, "what ifs" and so forth.

Also, when it says comes to the graves and they rise etc, and then if they reject god after that, then 2nd death. I can explain this. What happens is they are risen up and when they are risen up they will that time know the truth and have understanding. People today live in darkness and without understanding on this earth, so they are excused(gotta learn and experience this evil to gain knowledge). If at that point you reject things, then you are just plain "wicked". Then you've gone from being ignorant and blind, to just being ignorant.

This is why Jesus says blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. When they are risen from the grave, then they will know the truth, and they will accept it and not reject the father. Only those who know the truth and reject it(wicked) need to worry.

As well, all things of the father will return. ALL things. That means all our souls and so forth. When it talks about being the grave and not wisdom and such not being present, it's because god is no longer present in them(god within us is what gives us those things). When the soul dies, it just means you have been absorbed by the father, where as the living soul maintains it's individuality(although eventually even those will return to the father, another topic tho).



This (above) as well is something that makes a HELL of a lot more sense to me!
Pun intended....
Bleh...need sleep....



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:57 AM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
You Said {It is permanent destruction of soul and body as Jesus warned about }

If the above is true after the Final Judgment or second death ...it does prove once and for all that reincarnation is not an option ....I have noticed alot of Christians buying into the idea of reincarnation .


I don't see how it does any such thing. Reincarnation is fact, because we are all just incarnations of the father. We are really just 1 person, and you see all the lives and incarnations we have now.

The thing about reincarnation though is you couldn't know the previous life, because if you know the previous life then this life is not the same experience. So I don't think it's like "you" and what you know here and now can be a bird, flying around with all these memories and those as well. Because then you wouldn't be a bird, you'd be a human in a bird body etc. I'm pretty skeptical of anyone who claims to know their past lives.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard
 


That is a great observation.

But Jesus would have known who ruled the earth, so therefore couldn't be conned.


Maybe. Although if [the Christian] God is the ruler most high, then he will rule all, including earth. So what can Satan rule?



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:06 AM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


I always thought that God ruled everywhere - but can you explain why Satan offered Jesus the earth in that case?



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard
 


I always thought that God ruled everywhere - but can you explain why Satan offered Jesus the earth in that case?


That's my point. Just why would he? What was his angle? My conclusion (from when I was christian) was that either God did rule all, but stood back and let Satan have free reign of Earth, or Jesus was just a man. The former makes less sense because if Jman wanted the earth, he wouldn't need satan to give it to him, he could just take it.

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Welfhard]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by Welfhard

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard
 


That is a great observation.

But Jesus would have known who ruled the earth, so therefore couldn't be conned.


Maybe. Although if [the Christian] God is the ruler most high, then he will rule all, including earth. So what can Satan rule?


Satan can rule all those who allow him to. Just as on earth now, he is accepted by the people.

Part of having free will is the ability to give it away, and that is how he gets them. That is why he needs to use deception and such, because they wouldn't give away their will if they knew the truth.

If the people were evil to begin with, then no deception is needed. You could just tell them the truth and they would be like "right on". But for those who are not looking to do and follow such things, they must be manipulated into it.

We give up our free will ALL the time. In fact, we had to give up some just to have this reality/experience to being with. Everytime you see a "law" of the universe and so forth, that is because you gave up your free will to experience them.

We give up our free will on a subconscious level all the time, and that is the way the deception works. Not always bad, but as on a subconscious level they don't really realize what they do.

For example, take a game of poker. To play such a game, you MUST give up your free will. You must agree to the rules/laws of the game in order to experience it. Nothing is physically stopping you from looking at other cards, the deck and so forth, you are perfectly capable of reaching over and looking at the other cards. But if you do so, then the experience of the game is ruined. If you play poker with all the cards facing up, and everyone knew all the hands, then the game/experience is no longer there. Of course, we give up that free will just for that experience, but we do so on a subconscious level. IE: we aren't looking at it as "I'm giving up my free will here", we are looking at it as "I want to play that game".

And you can ramp that on up to politics and such as well. For example, in politics the entire deal is generally for you to take over someone elses free will. Like gay marriage for example. When you judge or put yourself over another person to say they can't do such a thing, subconsciously you are giving away your free will. Which you would quickly find out if you turned gay one day. But even if you didn't turn gay, subconsciously what you are agreeing to is - 1 man has the right to tell another what to do. So in this way you subconsciously give away your free will. That is the real deception in this world.

But people rarely look at their actions in such a way. Because again, the free will is given up on a subconscious level. You reap what you sow, so you do not realize what you are actually sowing, or who's agenda it is for etc.

Of course, in the end satan ends up with nothing. Can only keep that deception up for so long.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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reply to post by Welfhard
 


My theory - probably nuts, is that God did let Satan have the earth, that Jesus was the son of God, and that we are therefore living in Satan's kingdom, which is hell on earth.

Look around at all the evil and suffering in the world - Satan must be thrilled.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard
 


My theory - probably nuts, is that God did let Satan have the earth, that Jesus was the son of God, and that we are therefore living in Satan's kingdom, which is hell on earth.

Look around at all the evil and suffering in the world - Satan must be thrilled.


But if satan was simply allowed to rule then, he needn't offer Jesus the world cos God still technically ruled.





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