Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

Hey I admire you for taking a stand on the hell issue. But predestination is all Bible. I am not a 5 point Calvinist - but they are dead on about most of it. I might qualify as a 4 point - I don't really care about systems - I just go by the Bible.

Originally posted by Imago Dei
Evidently not everyone will be saved, but that is not to say that everyone can be saved. Salvation is a free gift to all to be accepted or rejected by all as freewill dictates in each individual case.

a nice sentiment but not true at all- its just humanism grafted into Christianity.

God does not predestine some for heaven and some for hell. He does know the choices people will make however.

There are literally millions and millions of people who lived and died in China and South America etc that never even heard of Jew let alone the Christian Gospel. There are people dying right now that never heard the Gospel once. So they had no free will to choose or reject - none at all.

It's not going to seem fair on human terms - to try and make it seem so does great violence to scripture. God is not a respecter of persons. It should just make you more grateful you are one of the fortunate few!

Jesus said, I told you and you do not believe. They still had the opportunity to be told and they chose not to believe, other wise he wouldn't have bothered telling them or even opening his mouth to speak to them. What it appears you are intimating is they had no choice in the matter as it was predestined. Ie to be of Christ's flock or not.

That my friend is calvanisim, sorry.

Not everyone ever has the opportunity - so this argument doesn't hold water. I think some people do have a choice but that is due to the grace of God not "free will". Many people did believe Jesus - but there were far more people on the planet earth that never even heard of him... they had no choice. Calling it Calvinism doesn't change the fact that is Biblical truth.

Clearly we dont become a member of His flock until we believe,

Clearly you are wishing it were so but that's not what Jesus said.

"Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock." (Jn 10:25-26)

You only believe because you are part of his flock. You were predestined before the foundation of the world - just like the Bible says.

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." (Re 13:8)

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Eph 1:4)

The fact that you want to believe in free will doesn't make it so. You only believe because God gave you the grace to believe. Not because you decided to. It was a gift of God.

"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed," (Ac 18:27)

If any part of predestination where true, there would be no need to bother attempting to reason together or to rightly divide the word of truth or to get out if bed in the morning for that matter.

It's not even up for debate if its true - ?- It has nothing to do with Calvin. Read your Bible. It says predestined

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Ro 8:29-30)

What part of "those he predestined" can you really deny? You just can't escape it without denying scripture in favor of liberal humanism.





[edit on 6/19/2009 by Bigwhammy]

In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalm 9:17



[edit on 19-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

4 point 5 point, makes no difference. You are misinterprating scripture.

The great commission dictates that we go into all the world and preach the gospel including China. Missionaries have done this for decades, if the extreme of "predestination" that you are preaching is correct, I say, why bother?

He foreknew they would accept salvation meaning; after which they are predestined to be conformed to his image. To call this view liberal humanism is odd to me as Liberal humanists dont believe in the bible or God at all to my knowledge.

If one jumps of a roof one is predestined to hit the deck, still one doesn't have to jump. We all know including God that if one does, what destiny awaits. Thats common sense, not liberal humanism.

Also introducing a plausible doctrine of predestination ( and by that I mean your interpretation of the context of the word) into a thread disputing the rubbish being touted here about eternal hell is counter productive in my humble opinion, because if what you are saying is true, then the lost and the found have absolutely no say in the matter as to where they are going to end up so why be informed? In which case the whole idea of Gods creation and the giving of freewill is an utter and total fallacy and waste of time, and it belies a fatal error, in that all of creation and the destiny of every human being is preprogrammed, which frankly is rediculous in the extreme.

So, to clarify, one is predistined after having made the decision of freewil to accept Christ - one is not predestined to accept Christ. Understand your bible, dont just read it. In all your getting get understanding.

Suffice it to say every minute of every day each individual human being is travelling through this "valley of decision", and that decision is up to each individual and God has done everything within his power other than force Himself upon us to lead people to the right decision. Choose you this day whom you shall serve, blessings and or curses follow that choice in every choice we make, not just the most important choice of all.

Jesus said; "Who do you say that I am?" The answer to this questions divides all humanity assunder and every form of religion aswell. And the so called most well informed "Christian" on this site as stated by the OP, clearly states that Jesus is just a man and that hell is not eternal. He has rejected both the deity of Jesus Christ and the reality of an eternal torment for those who reject him, perhaps this is why he doesnt want to believe in the place he is looking likely to end up.



John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself."

1 Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Calvans doctrine/theory on predistination and as it it would appear also yours was well refuted back in the 1800s, not that it ever needed to be mind you because anyone who understands the character of God through a reasoned reading of the bible guided by the wonderful councellor simply laughs at such calamatous misinterpratations.


1 Corinthians 2:6-8 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.







[edit on 20-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by Imago Dei


Yes there have been missionaries but you are just ignoring the billions of people who lived and died before missionaries ever got to their area. They made no choices about the Gospel at all. They were clueless.

You didn't address any of the scripture I posted -I supported everything with a verse which was explicit and precise - you just gave your personal opinion and preferences - that's the same thing the Hell deniers are doing bro. Placing the power of human free will above God is not a good thing to believe. The Bible says the saved were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Just because people are predestined doesn't mean they know it. So we evangelize to wake them up - if they are His sheep then they will believe. So it does not take away the great commission at all - understand?

But obviously back when Christ died in 33AD God knew good and well that Eskimos and Indians then living in N America at the time would not hear the Gospel for 1000s of years. If you are intellectually honest you know this means they had no choice at all concerning Christ.

It's inescapable... they were doomed from birth. I don't like it. But you need to face it. Pray about it. I know its hard to understand. Its against our human feelings. But God is not human. It's not all about humans - its about HIS glory. We are not probably going to understand it all while we are in this flesh.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is 55:8-9)

So, to clarify, one is predistined after having made the decision of freewil to accept Christ - one is not predestined to accept Christ. Understand your bible, dont just read it. In all your getting get understanding.

"predistined after"

Free will is an illusion.

Does the dew on the morning grass get to choose if its a part of 'water' or not?

The exact same concept can be reflected onto us and rather if we can or cant decide if we are a part of God.

The destiny is for 'all light'. There is a way for all and that is the love of God.

The soul may keep rebuking and bucking against this idea....but it is denying their very existence . Eventually the negative attachments to this flesh body will abandon the primal self and its 'separate' experience for one can not continue on to the highest without doing this.

So free will is a illusion...really, we only think that we get a choice. This isnt a bad thing...or good thing (which is where many just cant see past this part or thought)....but yet its an order/law/the way.

But for some to think....and here comes the kicker.....that 'some' can be destined to be 'saved or choisen' but not others....that is what tells what nature one is following in. There is no favorites, individuality is not something to hang on to...it is not what is important.

What is important, is offering of self for others. Please, consider Jesus with this thought.

It is not about individual salvation or destiny. Its about becoming a part of the divine will of Thee (which is using love to others) to be a beacon here and now for those who may not see any love in their lives.

I remember when deeply meditating/praying with Jesus one time how the thought came to my mind of if I could offer myself for a loving message to others. Many thoughts came fast and my discernment was restless for a moment...but I knew, deep down I knew and I felt that calm spot in the gutt that one feels when they know they are secure....I knew, there was no other way. I experience my death in a dream shortly after this experience and it helped give me strength that this is not the life we are to fight for. By fighting for this life....this action in itself....can blemish a light/soul.

It is destiny that the light returns, just as it is destiny for the seed to return to the Earth to grow another tree.

deleted post

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Free will is an illusion.

Does the dew on the morning grass get to choose if its a part of 'water' or not?

The exact same concept can be reflected onto us and rather if we can or cant decide if we are a part of God.

The destiny is for 'all light'. There is a way for all and that is the love of God.

The soul may keep rebuking and bucking against this idea....but it is denying their very existence . Eventually the negative attachments to this flesh body will abandon the primal self and its 'separate' experience for one can not continue on to the highest without doing this.

So free will is a illusion...really, we only think that we get a choice. This isnt a bad thing...or good thing (which is where many just cant see past this part or thought)....but yet its an order/law/the way.

But for some to think....and here comes the kicker.....that 'some' can be destined to be 'saved or choisen' but not others....that is what tells what nature one is following in. There is no favorites, individuality is not something to hang on to...it is not what is important.

What is important, is offering of self for others. Please, consider Jesus with this thought.

It is not about individual salvation or destiny. Its about becoming a part of the divine will of Thee (which is using love to others) to be a beacon here and now for those who may not see any love in their lives.

I remember when deeply meditating/praying with Jesus one time how the thought came to my mind of if I could offer myself for a loving message to others. Many thoughts came fast and my discernment was restless for a moment...but I knew, deep down I knew and I felt that calm spot in the gutt that one feels when they know they are secure....I knew, there was no other way. I experience my death in a dream shortly after this experience and it helped give me strength that this is not the life we are to fight for. By fighting for this life....this action in itself....can blemish a light/soul.

It is destiny that the light returns, just as it is destiny for the seed to return to the Earth to grow another tree.

Goodness me, dew on the hillside does not have freewill, because due on the hillside is not a human being.

For some reason I cant respond to bigwhamies post directly so I will respond here...

I did address your "foreknew" scripture, you ignored my explaination. The millions who have not heard the gospel is a different topic. Just put me down in your book as Liberal Humanist Pagan if it makes you feel better brother, if some one on a youtube video says so then it must be true, but then that is what I am predestined to be, so whats the big problem big whammy?? Someone with your beliefs can not nor will not make a difference, because everthing is set in concrete according to your good self which makes life even more meaningless and pointless and vain than what Ecclesiates has to tell us.




[edit on 21-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Deleted post

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post oby Bigwhammy

Hello to you;
I have followed thread for a while now and have a few ideas of my own I would like to share.

First, I really don"t believe in predestnation. The God I know would not choose someone to go to hell and not have a chance for heaven. Why? Beause we all are the Lord's children. He loves us all the same and it is not the Father's wish that he would lose any of his children. He put a spa rk of himself in all of us.

Please read: Psalm 139:13-16
For you created my inmost being, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, your works are wonderful I know full well, My frame was not hidden from you, when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

By these words we see that our Creator is with each of us as weare being nit together in the secret place deep in the earth. But note that ALL of us are given ordained days for our lives written in a book.

Why would God care so much that he would be there before we are even in our mother's womb yet and know the number of days we will have on this earth.

Sounds like God loves us so much as we are part of him and he is part of us.He is not willing to lose one of his childrenn to the darkness.

The Bible tells us he knows the number of hairs on our heads. I believe in a God who can find a way to reach any lost soul through the help of the Holy Spirit. The gift of thr Holy Spirit was one of the greatest given us except maybe prayer.

Those of us who are grown in spiritual wisdom and knowledge need to stay firm and strong in our faith and be a bright shining light showing the unbelievers how to come home. We love others as our own and we forgive everyone all the time, Others will be watching us and the things we do and judge our faith by how we handle life. We need to shine brighter then ever, time is short.

Show someone the way home to the Father tonight

Peace to all,
grandma

reply to post by Imago Dei


You miss the point. If you are a part of something...unconditionally...it cant be denied...it just is. Thee has made a way for all of us to come to know this and this is what will lead everyone home....knowing who we are...where and who we emanated from. What it is that gives us life.

In the flesh one can deny it...but not when we are in the spirit body...we see and humbled.

What in the world you keep bringing up the you tube videos...

What have I said that has lead you to believe that I believe in something because it is on a you tube video?? The video in my signature was made by me...the 2 people are me and my mother...it is us sharing a experience with others. Surely that is not the video you are referring to or responding at...and if so, it is my own video....not someone else.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

You miss the point. If you are a part of something...unconditionally...it cant be denied...it just is. Thee has made a way for all of us to come to know this and this is what will lead everyone home....knowing who we are...where and who we emanated from. What it is that gives us life.

In the flesh one can deny it...but not when we are in the spirit body...we see and humbled.

What in the world you keep bringing up the you tube videos...

What have I said that has lead you to believe that I believe in something because it is on a you tube video?? The video in my signature was made by me...the 2 people are me and my mother...it is us sharing a experience with others. Surely that is not the video you are referring to or responding at...and if so, it is my own video....not someone else.

I was addressing Bigwhammy re the you tube thing mate, not yourself. For some reason I was unable to respond directly to bighammys posts. Sorry for any confusion there, although I did explain that in the prior post.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by Imago Dei


Ahh ic now...

Thanks for the clarification

reply to post by Imago Dei


I'm in a cult? Why? Because some stupid website says I am? The Living Church of God is a cult? Let's see.... Just what makes it a cult?

-The fact that this church doesn't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but instead celebrates the 7 holy day feasts commanded in the bible and followed by Jesus and the first century church?

-Because we believe that hell is a permanent death because God is merciful and the true greek and hebrew in the bible speaks differently of hell since that word isn't even mentioned in those languages?

-Because we believe body and soul are one and the same and that when we die, we stay dead until our appointed resurrection?

-Because we don't believe heaven is meant for mankind? (John 3:13).

-Because we believe in following ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS including the 4th commandment of honoring the 7th day Sabbath?

-Because we refrain from unclean meats like pork, lobster, catfish, and shrimp?

-Because my church gives freely to all who request their literature or multimedia?

-Because the pastors of the church will go out of the way to meet you and answer any questions you have about the church and their beliefs?

What is it? I don't get it. There's nothing there showing this church to be a cult. It's more or less a church that still follows the traditions of their jewish roots. You can call us "Judeo-Christian" but to call us a cult is a little bit arrogant. We ain't drinking the red kool-ade or claiming to be prophets or gods. We don't believe in aliens comeing down and "rapturing" us away or anything. You want to list a religion as a cult, look to scientology and polygamists. Me and my church are a far cry from a cult.

reply to post by Imago Dei


Predestination is not what you think it is. God is choosing HIS people in this lifetime to be kings and priests in the Kingdom of God here on earth. Those chosen are the ones resurrected in the first resurrection and rapture after the tribulation when Jesus comes back. Those who were not chosen by God will be resurrected in the second resurrection after the 1000 years of peace on earth. These people in the second resurrection are not sentenced to hell. They are taught God's ways and are judged according to how they react and receive God's word. Those who reject God are cast into the lake of fire and die. Those who accept God are welcomed into the family of God to be His children. God chooses His kings and priests but those predestined to become heirs of the kingdom still have free will and have a choice to answer God's call. It's basically like someone getting a full scholarship to college. It's there, you just have to answer the call and show up to school. The person still has the choice to walk away from this golden opportunity. It's not too difficult to understand. My church believes to be this group of called-out people because of people like you who call it a cult. That's the majority belief by christians. Only those with their eyes open to the truth will accept my church. It's okay that you don't understand. God didn't choose you. At least He isn't calling you yet. Godspeed to you my friend.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

I'm in a cult? Why? Because some stupid website says I am? The Living Church of God is a cult? Let's see.... Just what makes it a cult?

-The fact that this church doesn't celebrate Christmas or Easter, but instead celebrates the 7 holy day feasts commanded in the bible and followed by Jesus and the first century church?

-Because we believe that hell is a permanent death because God is merciful and the true greek and hebrew in the bible speaks differently of hell since that word isn't even mentioned in those languages?

-Because we believe body and soul are one and the same and that when we die, we stay dead until our appointed resurrection?

-Because we don't believe heaven is meant for mankind? (John 3:13).

-Because we believe in following ALL TEN COMMANDMENTS including the 4th commandment of honoring the 7th day Sabbath?

-Because we refrain from unclean meats like pork, lobster, catfish, and shrimp?

-Because my church gives freely to all who request their literature or multimedia?

-Because the pastors of the church will go out of the way to meet you and answer any questions you have about the church and their beliefs?

What is it? I don't get it. There's nothing there showing this church to be a cult. It's more or less a church that still follows the traditions of their jewish roots. You can call us "Judeo-Christian" but to call us a cult is a little bit arrogant. We ain't drinking the red kool-ade or claiming to be prophets or gods. We don't believe in aliens comeing down and "rapturing" us away or anything. You want to list a religion as a cult, look to scientology and polygamists. Me and my church are a far cry from a cult.

Dear man, I know you mean well, but in my opinion, you are a member of a cult. You deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ for a start off. That's enough for anyone to establish your faith as a cult, never mind all the other stuff you mentioned your church has you doing. Some of which I have no issue with as far as following the 10 commandments and what you abstain form eating. However Christ died to fullfill the law IE the ten commandments because all men fall short of obeying the law. Everyman has broken the law and the wages of sin is eternal death, hence the need for salvation. But yes we are still to do our best to live by Gods law at all times; after we are saved.

Making information freely available doesnt make your church a cult, what is written in it does.

The gospel that Jesus preached and all the apostles was the Gospel of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of the heavens. There are 17 different names given for the gospel Jesus and all the apostles preached and all mean the same thing. The good news of the Gospel of the Kingdom of the heavens, through which Jesus is the only way the only truth and the only life by which a man can enter into this kingdom. After I have received Jesus Christ as my saviour I am presditned to be conformed to His image.

Gods foreknowledge, simply means that God knew I would receive the free gift of salvation becuase he is God He knows everything. He did not however predestine me to be saved, He predestined me to be conforimed to his image after I was saved. Your right, evidently not many understand the meaning of predestination in context.



[edit on 22-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by Imago Dei

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—" (Ro 9:21-23)

It is not a different subject - everyone has free will about the Gospel or they don't. Truth is not relative to your convenience.

If everyone has a "free will" choice about the Gospel. Please explain how the Indians that lived in North America had a free will choice about Jesus Christ before European Christians came to North America.

Gods foreknowledge, simply means that God knew I would receive the free gift of salvation becuase he is God He knows everything. He did not however predestine me to be saved, He predestined me to be conforimed to his image after I was saved. Your right, evidently not many understand the meaning of predestination in context.

Think about what you are saying. If he predestined you to be conformed to his image - then it would necessary for you to be saved. You can not be conformed to his image if you are not saved. Predestined is before you do anything by logical necessity. Or it would not be "pre". You just pushed the problem up a level. False doctrine. Plain and simple pagan humanism not Biblical Christianity.

You responded before with a logical fallacy = "predestined after"? Now you just pushed it up a level. It is fallacious.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Eph 1:4)

Better yet - try to explain this...

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”" (Ro 9:11-15)

Works based (choice) salvation is the same doctrine as the cults teach. I know you don;t want to accept it - that is your humanism. I have it too.

I understand its a hard teaching but its what the bible says.

The funny part is the Calvinists I know think I am too liberal.



[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Imago Dei

Dear man, I know you mean well, but in my opinion, you are a member of a cult. You deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ for a start off.

Okay, now you are makeing false accusations and putting words in my mouth! Never once did I deny the divinity of Christ. I don't think He is the same being as God. He is the Son of God, sent by God. All things were created through Christ as the "Word" of God (John 1:1-3). He was the "Spokesperson" of God. If a human heard God speaking, it was Jesus speaking on behalf of God. I am a unitarian, not a trinitarian (false doctrine) that teaches 3 beings to be 1 being. The Holy Spirit isn't even a being. It's the Force or Power of God working in humans. You are a manipulative virus on this thread spreading lies about certain people and defining them as a "cult" just because their belief structure differs. Do you consider the Roman Catholics to be a cult? How about mormons. What about pentacostals who have siezures thanks to the Holy Spirit? How do I differ? I think by your definition of a cult, I could consider any trinitarian a "cult" since clearly Jesus wasn't praying to Himself. Get off your high horse and read your bible for what it really says!

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

Dear man, I know you mean well, but in my opinion, you are a member of a cult. You deny the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ for a start off.

Okay, now you are makeing false accusations and putting words in my mouth! Never once did I deny the divinity of Christ. I don't think He is the same being as God. He is the Son of God, sent by God. All things were created through Christ as the "Word" of God (John 1:1-3). He was the "Spokesperson" of God. If a human heard God speaking, it was Jesus speaking on behalf of God. I am a unitarian, not a trinitarian (false doctrine) that teaches 3 beings to be 1 being. The Holy Spirit isn't even a being. It's the Force or Power of God working in humans. You are a manipulative virus on this thread spreading lies about certain people and defining them as a "cult" just because their belief structure differs. Do you consider the Roman Catholics to be a cult? How about mormons. What about pentacostals who have siezures thanks to the Holy Spirit? How do I differ? I think by your definition of a cult, I could consider any trinitarian a "cult" since clearly Jesus wasn't praying to Himself. Get off your high horse and read your bible for what it really says!

It's the same thing fella, denying the deity of Christ is denying that he is God which you have now stated clearly twice for all to see, and you and people like you have the audacity to call the correct biblical faith pagan. Sheeeesh! Im sick of this tripe. Yes cathloics, mormons, most pentacostals, your church, all cults and wicked to the core!!. Some, but very few, may have found true salvation within these cults, but not becuase of the "church" orgsanisation.

In the begining was the word, the word was with God and THE WORD WAS GOD!

Now your just outright lieing, you've been caught in your own little webs that you spin.

NB: The word "trinity" doesn't appear in the bible even once, so I have no idea what your on about, please explain what you mean? If you mean that God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holly Spirit, are not all one and the same thing, then again you deny the deity of God in Three Person and that makes you a non believer not just a cult member.



[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by spellbound


The Cathers believed hell was earth... I think its all a sham. Control the religion, control the masses. The Romans gave christians a little of what they wanted, mixed with a lot of what they wanted to give. The Christ story is about as common through history older than christianity then a snotty kid in pre school.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—" (Ro 9:21-23)

It is not a different subject - everyone has free will about the Gospel or they don't. Truth is not relative to your convenience.

If everyone has a "free will" choice about the Gospel. Please explain how the Indians that lived in North America had a free will choice about Jesus Christ before European Christians came to North America.

Gods foreknowledge, simply means that God knew I would receive the free gift of salvation becuase he is God He knows everything. He did not however predestine me to be saved, He predestined me to be conforimed to his image after I was saved. Your right, evidently not many understand the meaning of predestination in context.

Think about what you are saying. If he predestined you to be conformed to his image - then it would necessary for you to be saved. You can not be conformed to his image if you are not saved. Predestined is before you do anything by logical necessity. Or it would not be "pre". You just pushed the problem up a level. False doctrine. Plain and simple pagan humanism not Biblical Christianity.

You responded before with a logical fallacy = "predestined after"? Now you just pushed it up a level. It is fallacious.

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Eph 1:4)

Better yet - try to explain this...

"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”" (Ro 9:11-15)

Works based (choice) salvation is the same doctrine as the cults teach. I know you don;t want to accept it - that is your humanism. I have it too.

I understand its a hard teaching but its what the bible says.

The funny part is the Calvinists I know think I am too liberal.

[edit on 6/22/2009 by Bigwhammy]

Its not hard teaching it all. Your making falsehoods out of scripture and accussing me of being a liberal humanist pagan, Ive never come across anyone like you in my life. (you'll be proud of that, I know) Its not a compliment. One can't refute scripture with scripture.

Your quoting scripture that agrees with my position, it doesnt refute it all. What church are you a member of, that will shed some real light on what your all about, come on stump up with that info if you dont mind please?

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]