Obama's Gun Ban List Is Out, page 2
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 9 times


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 12:44 PM by vor78
Originally posted by Northern Raider
Slick BTW dont forget I am also a pro gun supporter, but iold enough and wise enough to know something has to change.



I agree, but the question is what exactly? The problem in this country is two-fold.

One, we have too many people in our inner cities who are poor, desperate and uneducated. That in turn is leading them into a life of criminal activity. I don't know how to solve that problem. Many of them will reject outside help.

Second, our criminal justice system is also helping to create this monster. We lock up too many two-bit thieves and drug users. Once they go through the prison system, they are often unable to find decent jobs because of the stigma associated with their past and in turn, they also become desperate and turn to a life of more serious crime. Plus, many of those once harmless offenders, upon being exposed to true hard-core criminals while in prison, are transformed into hardened criminals themselves during their stay and are a threat to society once they are released. And, of course, in order to lock up that 18 year old pot dealer, often, an inmate halfway through serving a 25 year murder sentence gets paroled to make room.

That second problem could be solved rather easily by either legalizing certain drugs or drastically cutting the criminal penalties associated with them. The prison system should be for true threats to society, not 18 year old marijuana smokers and petty thieves.


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 12:57 PM by vor78
reply to post by Nirgal


There is a lot that wouldn't be covered by that ban. All revolvers, bolt action and lever action rifles, as well as pump action shotguns would be legal. Some semi-automatic hunting rifles would be spared...for now.

That said, this is a revised list from HR 1022 (which never made it through the House). The original was FAR more restrictive than this. This list has been pared down to only what they think they can get away with right now. Give it 5-10 years, and they'll be back for those that aren't covered.


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 01:11 PM by verylowfrequency
Originally posted by Northern Raider

2 If they do , how many lives will it save, currently the US loses over 30,000 of its people each year to guns.


I call BS on the over 30,000 people a year. I think somebody's using creative math. That's over 600 people per state per year - I don't buy it. Certainly some of the worst or largest states can manage that number, but there's over 40 states that don't even have 100 gun related deaths a year. That would mean some states have several thousand gun related deaths per year - the only one I can think of that being possible is California, but we don't have a dozen California's. I know in my state nearly every gun death shows up on the News 600 deaths would be everyday on the News and it isn't so. We don't even have that many in the War dying.

In my state there might be a couple hundred deaths at most on a worst year. I think the people who made up those statistics found the state with the most killings in their worst year and the extrapolated it times fifty.

Lies, lies lies and more lies.

I challenge anyone to compile a list of the names of everyone killed in any year of the past 20 years to come up with a list of thirty thousand names. It can't be done cause they don't exist.

Hell even the list of civilian deaths on the entire War in Iraq is less than 30k a year. Iraq Body Count 91,059 – 99,431 violent civilian deaths as a result of the conflict to date.

So according to your numbers there are more gun deaths per year in the U.S. then civilian casualties in the IRAQ war per year. Doesn't make sense because the numbers are BS.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by verylowfrequency]


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 01:14 PM by vor78
reply to post by verylowfrequency


Its true, but indeed, that 30,000 figure does involve some sleight of hand. Check that link I gave for the CDC. Roughly 60% of that 30,000 figure is from suicides. The number of firearm-related homicides is usually around 12,000 per year.


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 02:06 PM by Northern Raider
Originally posted by verylowfrequency
Originally posted by Northern Raider

2 If they do , how many lives will it save, currently the US loses over 30,000 of its people each year to guns.


I call BS on the over 30,000 people a year. I think somebody's using creative math. That's over 600 people per state per year - I don't buy it. Certainly some of the worst or largest states can manage that number, but there's over 40 states that don't even have 100 gun related deaths a year. That would mean some states have several thousand gun related deaths per year - the only one I can think of that being possible is California, but we don't have a dozen California's. I know in my state nearly every gun death shows up on the News 600 deaths would be everyday on the News and it isn't so. We don't even have that many in the War dying.

In my state there might be a couple hundred deaths at most on a worst year. I think the people who made up those statistics found the state with the most killings in their worst year and the extrapolated it times fifty.

Lies, lies lies and more lies.

I challenge anyone to compile a list of the names of everyone killed in any year of the past 20 years to come up with a list of thirty thousand names. It can't be done cause they don't exist.

Hell even the list of civilian deaths on the entire War in Iraq is less than 30k a year. Iraq Body Count 91,059 – 99,431 violent civilian deaths as a result of the conflict to date.

So according to your numbers there are more gun deaths per year in the U.S. then civilian casualties in the IRAQ war per year. Doesn't make sense because the numbers are BS.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by verylowfrequency]


Nup the US govt has no reason to lie, not does the international crime survey, BTW the current toll of dead Iraqi Civilians is set at over 760,000 in the last 4 years, and thats accordording to the IRC and British Medical Council who have asbsolutely no reason to lie.


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 03:15 PM by whitewave
Originally posted by Northern Raider
Originally posted by whitewave
Of the 1500, you're looking at about 75% young males between the age of 14 and 25 (and getting younger every year), who unintentionally shoot themselves or someone else.


Maybe we should ban young males between the ages of 14-25


You dont give babys razor blades to play with, you dont give toddlers bleach to play with, so why give your kids easy acess to guns ?

Or knives?

Tools are just tools until some undisciplined and angry person decides to use them as a weapon. Perhaps some parental supervision is required for the use of powerful tools?

If teenagers are gaining access to guns and lack enough self-discipline that they would actually use them on someone else then I would say that's a parenting issue and not a gun issue. In your own country the teens seem to be resorting to knives rather than guns but the lack of parental supervision and self-discipline is the same.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by whitewave]


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 03:44 PM by emsed1
reply to post by verylowfrequency


Well I was going to flame that 30,000 number too but I went to the CDC website and here is what I found:



Number of Deaths Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate** 29,684 295,895,897 10.03 9.91


This is for 2005...

The Bureau of Justice Statistics says, however, that in 2006 firearms were 'present' in only 9% of violent crimes committed.


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 03:53 PM by crgintx
reply to post by Northern Raider


Now we're on!

I lived in the UK when Dunblaine happened. Has taking handguns away from law abiding citizens stopped gun related crime in the UK?

HELL NO, it didn't! In fact according to your own gov't's reported statistics, gun related assaults and murders has increased by twice what it was in '96 at least. When easy access to firearms was restricted, Brits started happily killing each other with knives and ball bats where a 90lb female has virtually no chance against 20 stone male assailant. Violent crime has risen dramatically in both the UK and Australia after even stricter gun laws were passed.

Here's a little factoid that you failed to mention. How many the 150K gun related deaths in the US were drug/alcohol related? My guess is at least 80-90% of them are drug and alcohol related. Yet the gov't's of the world continue to the fake war on drugs which is destroying both Columbia, Afghanistan and Mexico.

I've personally used a firearm to thwart 2 assaults on myself by both an individual wielding a knife and a gang armed with clubs over the last 20 years. I wasn't in a crime ridden areas when these assaults happened. The knife wielder came at me in broad daylight less than a block from a police substation! He was a drug addict desperate for cash to buy drugs. The gang attack happened in a well lighted roadside rest area where the gang had been assaulting folks sleeping in their cars in South Carolina. The gang tried breaking into my truck when I was sleeping in the camper. I was armed with a semi-auto pistol. I yelled at them to get away from my truck and made a dramatic gesture of racking the slide and letting it snap back. They ran back to their vehicle and fled. I phoned the police from a payphone who arrived about 15 minutes later. Evidently this gang had been targeting the rest areas on the Interstate Highway. They had severely beaten one man and sexually assaulted a woman in the previous week. Again, when they caught these felons, they were a bunch of drug abusers looking for easy prey.

How many folks around the world have been killed by govt's, insurgents or just plain criminals who were unarmed and unable to defend themselves? Look what has happened in Darfur to their disarmed populace or the Jews who complied with the law in Germany during WW2. Or how about your own country's religious wars where thousands were killed for practicing their non state approved religion by the gov't during the 16th and 17th century? Disarm the masses and you can do anything you want to them has been the mantra of gov't's since the time of the Pharaohs.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by crgintx]


reply posted on 13-3-2009 @ 04:05 PM by emsed1
Also...

From 1993 to 2001 the rate of FIREARM violence in the United States dropped 63% !!!

NCVS

and there is the oft-cited:



Since adopting CCW in 1987 Florida's homicide rate has decreased 21% while the U.S. Rate has risen 12%.


florida model
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