Obama's Gun Ban List Is Out

Originally posted by Kiltedninja
The right to have guns goes doubly for those of us who live in Gang territories, or places that have high crime rates(Usually gang territories). In Iraq, every man over the age of sixteen is allowed to have one AK47 and a pistol. I think a law like that should be put in place, every man and woman over eighteen or twenty one should be allowed the right to a pistol or other firearm. If I hear anything about this law on the news, I'm getting one, legally or not.

Yes and the US like Iraq loses tend of thousands of people every year to gun nuts. Many Americans have become so afraid of absolutely everything they dare not venture out without a gun, that in itself is a tragedy. Another tragedy is when you look at the most lawless and violent states like Pakistan,Chechnia,Somalia, Iraq, Afhhanistan the US of H fits right on in with them as places with horrendous amounts of gunvuiolence leading to an atmosphere of terror for many. Nearly evey Am,erican has a gun for self defence but it does not stop the 30,000 deaths a year, it does not stop the alomost weekly massacres in schools, shops, factories and rest homes. Its becoming a case of almost mass hysteria among the normally wonderful American people.

Originally posted by Northern Raider

Originally posted by Kiltedninja
The right to have guns goes doubly for those of us who live in Gang territories, or places that have high crime rates(Usually gang territories). In Iraq, every man over the age of sixteen is allowed to have one AK47 and a pistol. I think a law like that should be put in place, every man and woman over eighteen or twenty one should be allowed the right to a pistol or other firearm. If I hear anything about this law on the news, I'm getting one, legally or not.

Yes and the US like Iraq loses tend of thousands of people every year to gun nuts. Many Americans have become so afraid of absolutely everything they dare not venture out without a gun, that in itself is a tragedy. Another tragedy is when you look at the most lawless and violent states like Pakistan,Chechnia,Somalia, Iraq, Afhhanistan the US of H fits right on in with them as places with horrendous amounts of gunvuiolence leading to an atmosphere of terror for many. Nearly evey Am,erican has a gun for self defence but it does not stop the 30,000 deaths a year, it does not stop the alomost weekly massacres in schools, shops, factories and rest homes. Its becoming a case of almost mass hysteria among the normally wonderful American people.

I'm not being funny NR but I don't consider tens-of-thousands of people in the USA killed by gun nuts to even be accurate mate.
If a fraction of them being killed were the 'good guys' there would be mass revolt against criminals and crazies across the states.

In fact while we're on the subject a majority of the deaths are outlaw, drug-dealing gang-members. In which case I don't loose a wink of sleep over them being killed or injured. They have chosen to carry and live by the outlaw way in the cities so it goes with the territory they dwell in.
You might as well create a separate stastical sheet for those guys, the numbers killed by guns would, in all likelihood, plummet like a piano off a skyscaper

I'm not being funny NR but I don't consider tens-of-thousands of people in the USA killed by gun nuts to even be accurate mate.
If a fraction of them being killed were the 'good guys' there would be mass revolt against criminals and crazies across the states.

They lose 30,000 people a year, all of them are someones children, all given the same start in life. In many American cities (and British ones) for a child to reach adulthood they either join a gang or get stomped on. A huge amount of these kids who get written of as Gangstas are just ordinary kids trying to survive in poor overcrowded inner city areas. It does not matter if the gang theerse folks join is the Bloods, Crips, KKK, Militias, Posse Commitatus, Hells angels, College frat etc they are all driven by one thing a desire to survive. And the only way for many people is to go tribal and join some sort of group, gang or other unified mob. Now because kid A wears a blue bandana it means the kid with the red one is obliged to try and kill him, even though they sat at the same table during junior school. Or because Pablo has llighter skin and Tyson or darker skin than John they are obliged to blow holes in each other. The common sense approach to sensible gun ownership in the US that I knew, admired and respected has been replaced with fear driven paranoia so now we get school kids wiping out class rooms full or other kids, Mums shooting other mums in Toys R Us. Tourists being shot dead after knocking on someone front door after dark asking for help. guys who loses their jobs wiping out there colleagues, children shooting children because they had an argument. Its not as if it was one or two rare and isolated cases, its thousands of basically good a decent people killing and being killed because of unbridled fear. If the gun death rates were safer in the US then I would agree with you but the facts dont stand that way. US death rates average 30,000 a year, according to the web 247,000 Americans died because of guns in five years. the US has a population 3.2 times the size of the UK at 320,000,000 people. So the US gun deaths should be equal to our rates or better if their system is best.

UK gun deaths average out at 250 a year for a population of 60 million people, times that by five point to to get an equivelent figure for the US = about 1300 people a year. but they are losing 30,000 people not 1300 or less. The American gun lobby likes to say Ah yes well those 30,000 are mainly criminals, but they were not criminals until they used the gun, they were just other American citizens.

(bbcode)

[edit on Sun Apr 5 2009 by Jbird]

Straight from the pro gun NRA website itself
Gun Violence in America
Firearms are the second leading cause of traumatic death related to a consumer product in the United States and are the second most frequent cause of death overall for Americans ages 15 to 24. Since 1960, more than a million Americans have died in firearm suicides, homicides, and unintentional injuries. In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. Nearly three times that number are treated in emergency rooms each year for nonfatal firearm injuries.
From an anti gun website
Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

Before everyone goes mad, just remember I am PRO gun ownership, I just dont believe the stupid bloody attitude that anyone of any age should have guns.

From an American Health Foundation

Children and Gun Violence
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)
Guns in the Wrong Hands
Faulty records enable terrorists, illegal aliens and criminals to purchase guns. Over a two and a half-year period, at least 9,976 convicted felons and other illegal buyers in 46 states obtained guns because of inadequate records. (Broken Records, Americans for Gun Safety Foundation)
School Safety
Between 1994 and 1999, there were 220 school associated violent events resulting in 253 deaths - - 74.5% of these involved firearms. Handguns caused almost 60% of these deaths. (Journal of American Medical Association, December 2001)
In 1998-99 academic year, 3,523 students were expelled for bringing a firearm to school. This is a decrease from the 5,724 students expelled in 1996-97 for bringing a firearm to school. (U.S. Department of Education, October 2000)
Nearly 8% of adolescents in urban junior and senior high schools miss at least one day of school each month because they are afraid to attend. (National Mental Health & Education Center for Children & Families, National Association of School Psychologists 1998)
The National School Boards Association estimates that more than 135,000 guns are brought into U.S. schools each day. (NSBA, 1993)
Children and Gun Violence
America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence
Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

I see on the BBC right now 19.10 hours GMT that yet another gun massacre is going on in the US, someplace upstate New York.

Yet another 13 innocent lives lost thanks to insane gum=n laws.

news.sky.com... usel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15255369_Gunman_Kills_Up_To_13%2C_Takes_40_Hostage_In_Binghamton%2C_New_York

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Northern Raider]

Originally posted by Northern Raider
I see on the BBC right now 19.10 hours GMT that yet another gun massacre is going on in the US, someplace upstate New York.

Yet another 13 innocent lives lost thanks to insane gum=n laws.

Well, lets wait until all of the facts are in. For all we know, he was not legally in possession of the weapons used to begin with.

The sad fact is at least another 12 people are dead because of a nut with a gun, no other facts are needed.

reply to post by Northern Raider


I disagree. If you're going to blame it on our 'insane' gun laws, then it would be prudent to know whether or not he legally owned the weapons. If not, then those gun laws simply did not apply.

Originally posted by vor78
reply to post by Northern Raider

 

I disagree. If you're going to blame it on our 'insane' gun laws, then it would be prudent to know whether or not he legally owned the weapons. If not, then those gun laws simply did not apply.

The law is irrelivent, because (A) he is an innocent man until he takes up and uses that gun. (B) it makes no difference if he held the gun lawfully or not, its the ease at which pychos can simply obtain guns. The law is only relivent iif everyone obeys it.

Just on the radio now from some US station, A pro gun commentator has said " its every Americans right in law to keep and bear arms" to which a lady phoned in to reply " Yes and its also every Americans right to live their lives without getting shot by gun carrying nutjobs"

Latest is 13 dead and 26 seriously wounded just so some insecure people can keep guns at home.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Northern Raider]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Northern Raider]

reply to post by Northern Raider



Was he innocent? I don't know. For all we know, he had a rap sheet a mile long and, as a result, was prohibited from owning firearms in the first place. That's something else we'll have to find out in the next few days.

As for people being insecure, well, I'll tell you this. Until the government can provide adequate police coverage to all areas of this country, then people should be able to have firearms in their own home. You're basically on your own in many areas of this country. In the area I once lived, for instance, which was only semi-rural and only 10 miles outside of a fairly large town, it was at least 30 minutes from the time you placed a call to emergency services until they arrived. If we'd ever had an armed intruder, we'd have had no chance without some weapon in the house. And it could've been worse. There are places where help might be 2-3 hours away if you needed it. For tens of millions of families in this country, self-sufficiency in terms of home defense is the only realistic answer.

Originally posted by whitewave
Did I just miss it or is SKS not on that list? Also, they are still going to have to come get them.

The SKS is on the list.

Them bringing back the assault weapons ban was very predictable.

I also was fairly sure that it would be a tad worse, and that is true too.

I went for guns that I knew would not be on this list, glad I did.

Of course they will eventually ban all guns, and when that happens
I will be going camping for a looooong time.

I am not looking for trouble, but I am not sticking around for
what they pass after the ppl are disarmed.

Disarming the public has always been a prequel to dictators and
tyrants if you read history.

Hitler being the most well known example, but all others supported
gun control as well.

Good Luck to all the good ppl !

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Almost all of these were on the prior assault weapons ban list.

If you were a gun advocate you'd already know that.

It is common knowledge they are bringing it back, and plan
to add a few changes.

Some of the insanity of the assault weapons ban was the
Winchester model 94 30-30, ie. the old west rifleman type gun.

Listing it as an assault weapon is idiocy, its friggin lever action.

It uses round nosed ammo so it won't set off the round in front of it.

It's range and tube loading method make it SOOOO not an assault weapon.

This is totally retarded laws written by retarded ppl.

Things like this will be the tinder for the fire that is about to
be set amongst the smolder anger of the common ppl of this country.

Good Luck to all the good ppl !


[edit on 3-4-2009 by Ex_MislTech]

reply to post by Northern Raider
I don't believe just anyone should be allowed to own guns either. But that is not an age factor because i owned my first gun at 11 and never once fired it at anyone, never thought about suicide, and always made sure that it was either unloaded, or if i was going hunting the safety was on. It's mainly in how people are raised. My dad taught me gun safety from a very young age.

reply to post by Northern Raider


The animating contest of liberty has its risk, however the alternative is to kneel and accept the collection of our firearms as the British and Commonwealth citizens did; so much for the Magna Carta and the blood that was shed to secure it.

What you fail to understand is that the Second Amendment to the US Constitution is the safeguard of all other rights. With its guaranty, the government always knows that the people have the means to resist tyranny. Which is the very reason the powers that be use every example of its abuse to whip up the emotions of the people to surrender the last resort of the defense of liberty. Security by surrendering rights is the choice of the already mentally enslaved. Free men and women know that gun control is hitting what you aim at, and being responsible for educating children and others to be responsible and safe around firearms.

If just one citizen had had a conceal carry permit, which NY state has made almost impossible, the outcome would have been very different. Just like it was during a bank robbery not too long ago when an armed citizen let a bank robber have it. Saved the rest of us court fees and prison cost.

Ok I have to chime in. Keep in mind when reading statistics that numbers are easily manipulated. If you read the CDC report about childrens gun deaths pay close attention to the ages of those "Children". Some of them are 22 years old. I don't know how they claim them to be "Children" at that age. Of those "Children" that die to gunshots, most are involved in criminal activity. IE: gang violence.

I understand what you say about the inner city youth and survival. But I must also ask, is it the guns fault? Is it my fault? Will taking away or prohibiting me in any way change any of those numbers? I can say a definate no to all of the above.

Unfortunately criminals will allways be criminals. Violance has gone on since the beginning of time. The only difference between guns, knives, clubs, or the jawbone of an ass is that a gun has the ability to effect more people. A gun is a true equalizer.

You can correctly assume that I have a weapon on the mentioned ban list. I own it legally. My children have been taught to shoot it effectively. The gun resides in a locker, protected by a St. bernard / Rottweiler mix dog, owned by a responsible citizen.

It saddens me to hear of any child who's life is taken. But I can not agree with the nanny state that says no guns. Obviously "Shall not be infringed" means to me exactly what it says. Take away the guns and the little old lady is no longer equal ( in defensive terms ) to the young thug with a club. Or if you prefer the unarmed citized is helpless to defend against an unjust government or police force. (NO FLAMES needed, i'm not accusing anyone. It has happened before and history does tend to repeat.)

Spiritowl

reply to post by SGTChas


This is exactly what I first thought.
A lunatic criminal in the UK could do exactly the same thing as this fruitcakes whims have just done so NR argument seems to me a dead-end.

Trusting the police to do anything apart from clean up the mess seems about all that happens 9 times out of 10 in these cases. So yeah damn right that someone should of been armed to stop this guy in his tracks.
In fact the state it occured in is one of the toughest to even get CCWs so it doesn't suprise me the gunmen was able to run amok in the office block without nobody having a means to stop him.


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[edit on Sun Apr 5 2009 by Jbird]

Some things I feel compelled to point out:

The first is in response to Northern Raider's numerous posts regarding the availability of firearms in the US. My wife is English and when we first met over 12 years ago she had most of the same misconceptions that a lot of people from the UK have about the situation here. Spending time with me here and actually seeing the everyday reality, she became more comfortable with the concept. Having married me and been living here for the past 11 years now, she now feels safer here than she did there (and she lived in Ascot, not in East London) and has lost her fear of guns. The vast majority of gun crime in the US is criminal and drug related and mostly limited to inner-city areas. Banning or restricting ownership is not going to affect those numbers at all, because those guns are already illegally owned and the owners will not surrender them.

The Dunblane-style mass killings that we have tragically seen in recent years are something new as a phenomenon. The British response to that tragedy was to ban private firearms for all intents and purposes, with limited exceptions.

That "solution" would never work here, not only because of the mind-boggling immensely larger scale of firearms ownership (size and mobility of population, sheer number of unregistered weapons in circulation, and cultural differences in attitude), but also because of something known as the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. That piece of law was just recently upheld by the Supreme Court to guarantee an individual right to bear arms which "shall not be infringed". That is the law of the land, and so saying it ought to be different doesn't matter. It is what it is, and I personally happen to agree with it.

Lastly, I thought I'd toss this out for consideration...since ATS is based around conspiracy theories. What if a government in the firm control of people who want to ban firearms but know they can't get away with it politically or legally were able to manipulate otherwise normal people, who are recently of questionable mental stability because of economic hardship, to "snap"? That would give them the public outrage they need to push through draconian and onerous restrictions and bans with little resistance, wouldn't it? Much the same as the AIG bonus flap. The government approved the bonus payments in the first place, but feigned ignorance and outrage to gin up public rage and political support.

Check out the X-files Season 2 Episode 3 "Blood". Chemtrails, anyone?

I don't believe in chemtrails myself. I think it would be done with suliminal messages over the phone...you know, those recorded telemarketing calls and calls from 800 #s that just make some noises and then hang up on you? Or television.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Like I said, this site is based on conspiracy theories. Even if you think it's impossible, that was still a good episode well worth watching again.

Let me clarify my own stand point, first I am pro gun ownership, but strongly feel much more can be done to stop kids and criminals from getting hold of guns..
Second, the gun ban in the UK had NOTHING to do with reducing crime and everything to do with population control EG while Parliament inflicxted a draconian gun ban on the people, it still has its own Parliamentary gun club going in the cellar of the houses of parliament.
Third while the official UK govts policy on gun ownership states " Self Defence is not a justifiable reason for gun ownership" many MPs themselves are routinely armed for self defence, especially the MPs serving Ulster.

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[edit on Sun Apr 5 2009 by Jbird]

[edit on 5-4-2009 by Northern Raider]