Illegal Immigrant - White Caucasian Settlers - Let Truth Be Spoken

Nice thread. I agree with many of your pionts. The basis of your argument though in a very simplified form is that it happened in the past therefor we should let it happen or put another way are ancesters did it in a horrible way therefore we should let them do it in a nonviolent way. Apply this argument to other historical events and imo it crumbles.
Other things I liked in your post was that we should be able to move about freely, I agree, but you must also consider the implications of this in the world that we live in crude example country A is prosperous others not so much what happens mass immigration of course the final result being Country A's demise know Country B is doing pretty good you see where it's going.
This move about freely could only happen in a "new world" why because independent nations states can't allow their decline, loss of world power, and lower standards of living for thier people because of humanitarian concerns

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Whether you want to remember or not, whether you think it's currently important or not all white caucasians in North America are the sons and daughters of not only illegal immigrants but crusaders that came here with Genocide as their passports.

your whole point makes me laugh. but this made me laugh the hardest. to say all whites is wrong. my grandparents on both side came to this country just before world war 2. all there paperwork was in order and they learned the language as fast as they could. they did not try to make the people that where here before them conform to them, be it there language or there practices.
and with me and most of the people i know we all love this country but we fear our government. just like the war in iraq we support our troops not our government.
and as for the rancher he has a right to protect his property from vandalism and that is what is taking place. i live in michigan and have to tell you if the canadians where swimming over here and trashing everything when they hit land, be it beaches piers or what ever, leaving trash and junk all over it would urk me. and to say the rancher violated there civil rights hmm they have no rights they are here illegally.
if i went to any other country illegally and was trespassing on somones property while entering that country what rights would i have? hmm i cant think of any either.

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Whether you want to remember or not, whether you think it's currently important or not all white caucasians in North America are the sons and daughters of not only illegal immigrants but crusaders that came here with Genocide as their passports.

WT!?!? Nice stereotyping there. Just so I am clear, My Grandpas who came from Sweden and Italy to America in 1911 and 1914 and went through Ellis Island are somehow illegal, crusaders and genocidal killers of the original inhabitants of North America? That's funny, cause I don't remember pictures of them slaughtering Indian villages and burning them, they were too busy trying to scrap out a living to get their brothers over here.

While there is no disputing the tragedy that happened to the Native Americans throughout the hemisphere's , not every Caucasian is to blame or be held accountable for it.

If I new how to star I would great pionts No offense to the op I see where your coming from but that langauge is a blatant appeal to emotion that is far from fact.

reply to post by secretagent woooman


Yeah, I am somewhere between 1/16 and 1/8 (not really sure which but it comes from two different sides). If I get some sun I turn red despite not being burned and then fade to a somewhat yellow color. My eyes are narrow so I get the "Are you tired?" because I "look sleepy". I have the high cheekbones and teeth too.

And sometimes younger Asians will give me a look or slight bow as a recognition to be polite. Which is more due to being older and of questionable "war baby" status. And yes, it has been asked.

Even had a financial aid office mention applying for Native American grants and scholarships without mentioning background. Which is how I learned about the Dawes List.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
So i've been somewhat active in the thread about the ranch owner that assaulted some illegal immigrants and got fined, and because of this vigilanteism many are angry at the court outcome.

This angers me so much that many educated people on this board think this way.

Whether you want to remember or not, whether you think it's currently important or not all white caucasians in North America are the sons and daughters of not only illegal immigrants but crusaders that came here with Genocide as their passports.

So the logic where, your grandfathers crusaded over here, then killed, raped, murdered the natives and then stuck the rest of them in 'reservations', and now after settling here through amnesty(because children born here are citizens even though their parents are immigrants) you call other illegals immigrants when they are just more peaceful and hungry versions of you great grandfathers is so very sad and has no logic whatsoever.

If you went to the future and read this story in a book you would look at these people as horrible human beings. Before reading on please take a pause, close your eyes and pretend you are looking back at this as so.

If Israel completely took over palestine, some of these same people would be anti-israel because they know it's wrong. But when they are the descendants of oppressors they have a different opinion.

You want to say that we are not our ancestors?
Fine say it, but don't forget it.
And even if you refuse to remember it you still cannot call this your land.
So people should be able to go wherever their feet takes them.

It's so unfair, your ancestors invade this place and today you call others who come here illegally yet peacefully and you call them what you are but are exempt because of amnesty.

Your govt. sells guns, arms, puts a dictator in place in foreign nations, the people riot and you call them savages.

Your govt. imperializes, installs bases in foreign land and the people retaliate and you call them terroists.

Many, none here i'm sure, but many tell black people to go back to their country when it was their ancestors who brought them here in the first place against their will.

It's all so damn backwards, but you refuse to empathize because of the side of the fence which you reside in will hurt your conscience once you acknowledge it.

This is hypocrisity in it's highest form!

So I ask you, please flag this thread, I wish for as many ATS members to come here and debate this topic as possible.

I will be an avid participant in this thread.



Thank You

hello,
first off you never said what would happen if you were the one affected by a barrage of illegal immigrants destroying your property.

secondly my grandfathers never killed ANY natives. they came over and you wanna know what they did... it may sound crazy but they began farming and building towns, they didnt demand the current citizens learn their language or provide healthcare for their children. they became the american dream.. not a drain on it.
you know what else they didnt do? create gangs and ghettos in the towns they occupied.

nowthen. i agree about what you say about the scumbags who wiped out the natives of this land, but it certainly wasnt ALL white people in this country. you may have forgotten that after the natives were decimated that people kept coming over here who had no part in the slaughter.

also i agree with you about the imperialist nature of america with is bases and military all over the globe, and if you research my posts you will see i have spoken against this numerous times. However because my government chooses to make the classic folly of imperialism doesnt give a green light to people violating MY rights to live safely on my property. it also doesnt mean i should look the other way when more of my tax dollars goes to help people who dont put into the system but only take.

i will say that the rancher in question didnt HAVE to detain these folks but the government has proven to be ineffective in protecting this man so he took matters into his own hands just like any other rational person would.. except an armchair quarterback who lives 1000 miles away and who is unaffected by the problem.
and if people should be allowed to go where their feet take them, would you mind terribly if my feet take me to your house where i discard my trash, take a dump on your lawn, kill your dog and burglarize your home on my way through?? c'mon man im just a poor person looking for a chance, who cares if i walk all over you, you owe me.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Whether you want to remember or not, whether you think it's currently important or not all white caucasians in North America are the sons and daughters of not only illegal immigrants but crusaders that came here with Genocide as their passports.

you obviously think that everyone her eis decended from the first few shiploads of escapees.

Now, I don't know about you, but I'm only 2 generation's into this country. while supposedly never ending hordes of white people were here apparently slaughtering, trading, buying and breeding with the local native population when Columbus came over, my family was up in the German mountains trying to eek out a living. Wasn't until a bit before the great depression that my grandparents first stepped foot on this country's soil, and they did it legally and did what they could do not only become legal citizens, but good residents.

So you know what I say when some puffed up hostile young bleck fella comes up to me blustering about 40 acres and a mule? I can tell him to kiss my lilly white ass. My ancestors never owned any of his, and I don't owe him a thing.

When black people come by and say we owe them for all these years of discrimination, I tell them I'm warming up my other ass cheeck from the last guy who claimed that. Wasn't me, and wasn't my family.

Then for the wannabe intellects like the OP here, I'm sorry, but get off your pompous high horse and realize there's a lot of different people here and they don't fit in any of your neat little molds. There a large majority of people who came here after all this hullabaloo went on, so what do we owe people? not a damn thing.

But maybe times have changed too much since those apparently more innocent times. Yeah, my ancestors wanted to integrate into this country. They wanted to become Americans, now mexicans/arabs/europeans living in America. They wanted to learn the language and did everything they could to, including studying some of it beforehand. They didn't expect everyone to learn their language to suit them. They looked out for each other, but they also looked out for their neighborhood wherever they were. They didn't try to make all the little mexicos, and such. They existed back then but a lot of people went through there for a lot of things. People were a lot more tolerant of each other it seems back then. Youhad your christmas,and you had your haunnaka and a couple of other observances, and you know what? if you wished a jew merry christmas, he wished you a happy haunnaka and that was that, it was well wishings and you went on about your day, you didn't get offended or try to make people change their ways just to suit you.. and you know what happened if they did? You got the second great American motto: "Screw you"

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Think your missing the point--the rancher was protecting his land. These people who sued him, with the help of a bottom feeder (lawyer), were probably not the "innocent" souls they are made out to be.
The border & what is going on down there (major power grab by drug dealers) is the issue. Not the color of your skin.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
So the logic where, your grandfathers crusaded over here, then killed, raped, murdered the natives and then stuck the rest of them in 'reservations', and now after settling here through amnesty(because children born here are citizens even though their parents are immigrants) you call other illegals immigrants when they are just more peaceful and hungry versions of you great grandfathers is so very sad and has no logic whatsoever.

Ah, that's the key word over there... amnesty... That kind of amnesty is actually a false self entitlement, the european immigrants technically are still "squatting" on the land that doesn't belong to them. You cannot just squat on someone's land, then your children get to inherit it and call it as their own.

But then again, I don't know that much about what happened during that period or the legality of it.

Good thread by the way. S&F.

I want to give this a go.

Yes, the white Europeans came and conquered this land.
Just as native tribes fought and conquered each other on this continent for years prior, the Europeans showed up and took damn near the whole landmass.

Yes, back then it was an act of imperialism.
During that time in history the governments of the world tried to expand their power by any means. This meant killing and enslaving a great number of people. It can't be disputed.

No, I am not upset by it. I had no say in the matter.
I have no control over how the kings of yesteryear went about mucking things up. I do not need to defend or answer for anyone's actions besides my own.

Yes, the government has the “right” to define citizenship.
What people don't understand is that there is no “right” or “wrong.” The only undeniable concept in life is that of force. Force (in this context) means the exertion of will and energy of one person over another. Those who win the wars write the history, as it should be!

When I want something that you have, I will first ask you for it. If you say no, then I will take it from you with my hands. If you resist further some implement of technology will come into play (rock, sharp stick, 9mm...) When I get what I want from you, you can whine and say that what I did was “wrong.” To this point I exclaim, “I still got your stuff!”

You hide behind “society”, claiming that humans are an advanced social animal. This gives everyone the responsibility to act according to your perception of what is “right” and “wrong.” The truth of the matter is that anyone can act with force against you. They won't feel guilt or pity. Your hollow words do not compare to hollow-points.

Do you understand now? Those of you who think there is a big board with everyone's scores written on it are only fooling yourselves. The people who are “right” are those with the guns and jails enough to back up their point. Currently those who have the force are letting those without force keep their lives, for the most part, in this nation. If you think that those who exert force are so wrong, you must push back with equal to or more force then they. Otherwise you have no point in this conversation.

P.S.- I'm not saying that I enjoy how life is. If you don't like the game of force, get the hell away from “civilization!”

In human history there have always been people conquering other people and now that has subside quite a bit. And now we have laws in this country that need to be obeyed and we have ways of people coming here legally. And not coming here through the proper channels is illegal. If you were to have open borders then eventually this would became a third world country and then people would migrate to the next best country and they would eventually become a third world country and so on and so on. And what about Mexico's immigration polices against south Americans. They do bad things to the illegal aliens that cross their border.

NettleTea - - do you support the Aryan nation as well? They are here legally.

With a little bit of encouragement I'm sure White Supremacy is ready and willing.

[edit on 20-2-2009 by Annee]

Knockout! Nice one, ModernAcademia, but you must remember, people still think the way today as they did when they first came over here to achieve 'freedom-independence.' Of course, to do that, they need to take the freedom-independence from the Algonquin, which they did, no problem.

Nice part is, they forgive themselves (those who have any sense of remorse at all). But it doesn't matter: the Algonquin were considered sub-human by the settlers (immigrants), and killing off a million or so was the nature of war, and the spoils were theirs by right of winning! How sweet.

Note this one:

Originally posted by stevegmu
Actually, the original settlers in N. America either came here looking for riches or freedom from religious persecution.

"freedom from religious persecution?" When they got here, after some dirty subterfuge with the natives, they eventually Outlawed the Algonquin 'religion' which was worship of the Great Spirit (Sun worship). It is no longer outlawed, by these fine native folk keep this religious practice carefully hidden (I know this from Algonquin friends), as it is considered distasteful to the rulers of this land (cowards/hypocrites). Nice, huh?

Yes, I know we have a number of people like you who can perceive the treacherous black-souled behavior of such actions. Most have since distanced themselves from such actual truths, and live in denial of what is actually still part of their behavior-makeup: they are doing it today, only in other countries, at different levels. Honest perceivers will admit this.

The Algonquin have a Legend, that the Ancient Chiefs will return and take back their land from the invading whites. Maybe on another Earth, but not this one, I'm afraid. Besides, being as things are becoming more spiritual, not less, such a time would increase their goodness, not cause them to revert to the state of those who treated them thus.

They could have been our sisters/brothers, and changed the very Face of the Earth with their Gifts of the Great Spirit! Of course, it didn't get a chance to happen.

So, for the few, I say, Thank You for understanding. For the rest: shame upon you and your kind: your mindless greed is killing a beautiful planet, because you feel the call of viscious Masters.

S & F. Truth Be Spoken.

[edit on 20-2-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by ModernAcademia

Our forefathers from Europe came here LEGALLY, integrated into society & worked hard. They were not moochers and the jobless rate wasn't 14%. TAXPAYERS are SUBSIDIZING corporate "cheap illegals" at $385 BILLION PER YR for food stamps, medicaid, HUD housing (where Obama aunt lives 5 yrs after ordered deported), welfare, FREE public school, FREE college, FREE LEGAL DEFENSE while they've raped 1 million women & children, murder 9,000 Americans per year, form criminal gangs with impunity, & drive drunk. They crowd our hospital waiting rooms, courts, schools, & highways. 33% of prisoners are illegals and WE pay upkeep. They've displaced ALL American construction workers who've lost their jobs, homes and health insurance.They don't pay taxes, so the states are BROKE. 2% pick crops, 40% are on welfare. TAXPAYERS must build more schools, more prisons, hire more policemen, teachers, social workers. Their anchor babies are EXPLODING the population, 90% in CA. Bill Gates got rich on H1-B foreign labor with TAXPAYERS footing the bill. Americans are HURTING, folks.

I am a second generation American; My grandparents came here from elsewhere, so... no, my ancestors didn't force anybody to come or leave. It just so happens that my grandparents were, well... Polish Jews and German; we didn't evict anybody, we just cooked each other.

I am part African, in-so-far I have G6PD. I am part Indian, in that I have gone through my naming ceremony; Ojibwa, for any who is curious.

Going a bit further back, on one side of the tree we have Gypsies. On the other side, Scandinavians. In other words, we read in your stars that we'd rape you and pillage your village.

By blood and heritage, I am the American melting pot, and so I can answer this better than any pure blood.

By right on conquest we get to make the rules which govern all who live here. And you know what? It happens all across the world; don't criticize one group while ignoring another.

In Africa, how many groups hate each other because their skin is darker? Not because they are black, because both groups are black... but because they are a darker shade.

Anyone care to explain the lovely relationship between Chinese and Japanese? Israel and Palestine?

Who here watched Braveheart?

We all hate each other.

Your eyes are too far apart. Your penis is bigger than mine. My skin is whiter then yours. My god can kick your god's ass.

Your kind are just a bunch of criminals. Your kind are lazy. Your kind is genetically smarter. My kind is genetically superior.

Blah blah blah blah blah. Who gives a royal whoop-dee-do? You don't like it, leave. You like it, then defend it with your life. Complain and we'll kick you out.

Do you let your neighbors free reign of your home? What about total strangers? What do you do when someone of a race or group you don't like watches you, or you assume is staring at your stuff?

Irregardless of what you may believe, or say you believe, being illegal is still being illegal. They can become citizens if they want, no one is stopping them from doing that. Ahh, hell, but this is okay, the situation with the white rancher, because it dealt with ppor Mexicans. Of course the rancher is just racist, and the immigrants were just invading a country.

YES. INVADING. You sneak through a foreign country's border, and guess what? You are an invader. There is no immigration here. IT WAS INVASION. And yes, our ancestors were invaders, I don't recall anywhere where it said we called ourselves immigrants

At least the US doesn't shoot the invaders. At least the US doesn't treat invasion by unarmed people a declaration of war. At least the US isn't launching missiles and having armed helicopter strikes at Mexico because of settlement expansion.

People need to realize that to be an immigrant is to be someone who declares entry to become a citizen, and follows all the laws. The is no such thing as an illegal immigrant, because that just means that they don't follow the laws... that just contradicts each other. An invader is someone who enters a country without declaration, who moves about covertly.

As a Cherokee American...let me just say we are tired of the need of others pretending to speak for us. You DON'T!

Moreover, I find it disgusting and demeaning for you and those like you attempting to "piggy back" on the genocide of Native Americans of the US.

Illegal immigration in the 21 century has NOTHING to do with what occurred during the last 300 years ago in the United States of America.

Massive illegal invasion of people into the USA is supposed to be OK with us Native US Americans? WRONGO!

If you people have an issue with the laws of the USA. Stay out, do not come here and demand something that you have no legal right to.

You would have been an illegal alien 500 years to the Native Americans then and you still are today. (the only difference would have been we would have killed you on sight)

And for GODS sake, STOP attempting to ride on the past misery of Native US Americans and American Black Slaves. It is the highest form of insult.

We CONQUERED the natives for starters, and they didn't have any immigration laws to break in the first place
It's unfortunate what we did to the Native Americans for sure, but these are different times and this is a different situation. My grandpa came here from Mexico and worked his arse off and now enjoys a good retirement. These illegals are putting all of that to shame

I come from a long line of fence jumpers myself. Native American included.
I can trace my genealogy back 500 years and none of them were slave owners, genocidal maniacs bent on greed or destruction (that I'm aware of). They did help to build this country. Even have an ancestor from waaay back that invented Bourbon whiskey.

The sins of the past are just that-past. Every country, every race, every government and religion has something in it's past that someone can point a finger at and say, "aha!"

We're in the here and now. We have rules. We have laws. We have proper procedures. All of these are in place for a reason. It is a disservice to the millions of Mexicans who went through the proper procedure and obtained their citizenship legally to say that their sacrifices and contributions are null and void.

The main problem I have with illegal immigration is that it violates a very fundamental rule of warcraft. When actively engaged in a war you lock down your borders, not throw them open wide. We're spread thin on the war front and people who have no loyalty to this country or way or life are pouring in to grab what they can. They see that we still have a little something and they want it and that's their only reasoning.

My ancestors didn't see an opportunity to rob or claim entitlement. They saw an opportunity to make something of themselves. It was inconceivable that they would expect someone else to give them a handout. Worse, it is criminal and completely immoral to throw a fit when you don't get your way while you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

I say the rancher should have just shot them, buried them on the property or tossed their carcasses back over the fence.