Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by Sonya610


You cannot remove unknowns. You put a person on a 2 wheel bike and without training wheels there is a very good chance they will fall.

All you can do is try to explain, and also assure them that with practice most everyone can learn to ride the bike.

What is that? It is faith and desire. Once you have ridden the bike, it is no longer faith. Then its knowing.

Interesting.

By the way the first time I went on a bike as a child, I was riding it with no problem, the first time I was already the other side of the street without losing balance once. But my brother took a long time of falling again and again until he got it right.

Sorry bit offtopic, but it's interesting how everyone is different.

Originally posted by Kat77
what is the definition of enlightenment?

A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.


what is nirvana?

1. (Hinduism and Buddhism) the beatitude that transcends the cycle of reincarnation; characterized by the extinction of desire and suffering and individual consciousness
2. any place of complete bliss and delight and peace [syn: Eden]

by these definitions, it sounds like nobody can claim to be enlightened. If you live in this world and care about others, how can there be enlightenment here with so many problems?

This kind of speaks to my opinion that reincarnation is a stumble toward true enlightenment.

This is why I believe our spirit is one and until we are all enlightened, none of us will experience nirvana.

But of course, it's just an opinion.

Was that guy starving being all famous and such? He was able to sit aroudn all day and do nothing. This was some how catagorized as enlightenment? If you had an understanding of other peoples consciousness would you not feel their pain? If its preventable, how can you remain painfree yourself feeling that?

Enlightenment is when we come to an understanding about something. It looks liked most of you are confusing "Nervina" which is a specific enlightment as being the only enlightenment.

Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Now, you have these experiences, and you begin the Inner Journey. Let me assure you, ALL is Mind. Yes, that's right. Doesn't sit well?

And thank you Very Much! I often wondered if anybody saw other than Green! Blue, eh? Beautiful. I have actual hazel eyes, wonder if that's related?

Now, step past the Single Eye, and Emblaze this into the Next Stage: The Inner Sun! Here is your Living Soul Lifeforce Energy. As Real as the Outer 'Real' Sun. Behind our Sol Sun, Within the Etheric Field(s), is the Eye of the Sun, Watching. If more people only knew. (shivver!).

[edit on 13-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

You are correct this doesnt sit well with me at all. I feel I am NOT my mind, I am something beyond mind, I am consciousness but not mind.

The eye did you see it more than once? Does it only appear to us once? I know of another who has also seen this eye, a blue eye. He then saw a gold eye later on. Maybe hes seen the sun I dont know. I have not seen the inner sun.

reply to post by Mr Green


enlightenment, I do not claim I have it, but when I did have it, it felt like the best feeling in the world, intellectualism had nothing to do with it, it was an at peace feeling, and it was a feeling of love, not sex, but general compassion for all living things, such enlightenment causes negative thoughts and negative situations and anything negative to seem to petty and childish and foolish and almost funny, not the negativity worldwide but the personal negativity in ones own life, it's then that you can see clearly in all directions, I hope to attain it again soon.

reply to post by Mr Green

That's funny, and I won't be sad. For your signature describes Mind in completeness, or it's three aspects. I find that utterly hilarious. Many people write signatures that they have no understanding of the meaning.

Your signature merely means: Mind, or The WORD. I could explain it, but I hope you will do the work yourself, because I see no use to use a prod. I am right, you are unknowing what Body, Soul, Spirit is (All Mind). A closed door is difficult to break down: in fact, it's clung to with great fear (Ingo Swann discusses this aspect extensively). I think you can shift your awareness rather easily here, if you desire to see.

The eye is merely a first expression of awakening the pineal: I use a method of direct-connect that enables anyone (with a subtle energy awareness) to turn it on almost effortlessly (this comes through long practice). It merely flickers at a stage of pineal illumination, and rapidly turns into the Inner Sun, or Light Within. One may hold it at either point, a before the Void state. The Inner Sun (a term) is more diificult to bring Up: once done, the Allverse (Universe-set) opens up.

Ever hear of Jung and the archetypes?

[color=grey]- The Three states of All Being (the Mind, the WORD):
BODY - - - -consciousness-(SOUL)-Awareness - - - SPIRIT
PHYSICAL - - - - - - - - - PERCEPTION - - - - - - - ENERGY
UNCONSCIOUS - - - - - _ CONSCIOUS - - - - SUPRACONSCIOUS
SOLID - - - - - -- - - - - -LIQUID/GAS - - - - - - - PLASMA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -[MIND] - - - - - - - - - - - -

[edit on 14-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

Originally posted by Razimus
reply to post by Mr Green

 

enlightenment, I do not claim I have it, but when I did have it, it felt like the best feeling in the world, intellectualism had nothing to do with it, it was an at peace feeling, and it was a feeling of love, not sex, but general compassion for all living things, such enlightenment causes negative thoughts and negative situations and anything negative to seem to petty and childish and foolish and almost funny, not the negativity worldwide but the personal negativity in ones own life, it's then that you can see clearly in all directions, I hope to attain it again soon.

Your description is spot on. I have felt this too, however you say this feeling was enlightenment, and that it has now left you. I dont think this feeling we have both felt is enlightenment I think its a snippet of what it is, what it can be, what you are describing is the bliss.

This week has been a very important week for me, after what seems like an eternity I have stepped out of the bliss. I have finally found the courage to walk outside of this bliss. Yes we need to be shown it, we need it to flow through our every cell and fill our spirit,it is from experiencing this bliss that we are able to open our hearts to unconditional love. The trouble is moving on from it, I felt secure, surrounded, almost on another plane when the bliss filled my very being. We merged, we became one, one spiritual being. However I learnt little while laying with the bliss, I was dazzelled by its brightness and love. To feel this bliss is like nothing I have ever felt before in my entire life, its like the light itself. Now I see I must keep it still within me , within my heart but I must not stay in its comfort.

I think this is possibly why I started this thread, to take my mind away from seeking the bliss within. Every time I tryed, I would always go back to its comfort, not having the courage to move on. Now I do. I dont know if this means I will see golden eyes, firey suns, find enlightenment, I really dont know but Im sure its going to be exactly what its meant to be.

reply to post by Mr Green

Children play in the sandbox.
Adolescents play in a bigger sandbox.
Mature Adults sometimes play, sometime battle.
Warrior Spirits enter the Universal Battle of Balance.*

(*The Two Forces, Body & Spirit, Dragon & Eagle, Evil & Good).

Staying within a state of Bliss is the same as leaving your car running in the driveway.
It's nice to have it; know it's there, maybe even run to the store for a whirl.

But the Journey is Waiting to be Begun.

Sorry, I was delighted to read your last post.
And yes, you will see the Single Eye many times. Just Look. Lift Up Your Eyes (actual action - It shifts energy inception!)



[edit on 14-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by Mr Green

 

That's funny, and I won't be sad. For your signature describes Mind in completeness, or it's three aspects. I find that utterly hilarious. Many people write signatures that they have no understanding of the meaning.

My signature means just what it says. We are all these things in one, but to be exact we are only really two of these things combined.

Firstly we are spirit (light), a whole spirit that was split into many many millions of smaller spirits, but all still from the one initial spirit, the creator. We are all from the spirit of the creator. So these spirits could grow and learn they became souls. There is very little difference between a spirit and a soul, the only difference is in order for the one spirit to split it required souls to temporarly become many.

My soul is then incarnated within the body of a mans daughter. I am not this body but it is my choice of incarnation. This is a shell it is not me. I am a soul within a body.

So you see I am first spirit, that came from the one spirit of creation and it is to this one spirit I will return to, I will be reunited as will all other spirits that reside within souls.

The body incarnation is not really part of me at all.

As for the mind it is a creation gone crazy. Its a constant chatter of useless information. It was created to help us process simple clock time tasks like how to avoid being run over, how to get to work on time that sort of thing. However its become our worst enemy, becoming an entity in its own right, constantly chattering away, taking our true self away from who we really are.

Seems on this point we differ SS.

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Seems on this point we differ SS.

I'll leave it be, then.
Where we differ, btw, is I know Light; you are seeking it. Luck.

PS - Try google Mind someday. It might burst the box.

"God is Light. God is Universal Mind. Mind is Light. Mind Knows.

Mind thinks what it knows. Mind thinks in two opposed lights simultaneously projected from their centering white Light Source and sequentially repeated in cycles."
("The Secret of Light," Walter Russel)

In 1921, Walter Russell experienced a 39-day cosmic illumination.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by putnam6

Sorry if my response was a little terse,I didn't mean it that way( nor am I BTW). I agree with being more open minded,I've try hard not be "too set in my ways and beliefs"even though I have normally have strong opinions to the contrary. I do believe we can get there individually a whole heck of a lot easier than collectively.

No I didnt take it like that, sorry if it came across as I did. Its sometimes very hard to get the written word across as we want. I was just saying that I realize that because we have to ask if we are enlightened this probably means we are not. Hey my partner has just told me on several occasions in this thread I cant even spell enlightenment never mind be it I would think being able to spell it corrrectly would be the first requirement to becoming it, so Im definatly not there yet!

Thanks for your post and yes your right we do seem to get there much faster on our own rather than a group but sometimes its good to swap notes every now and then.

That's one of the things I love about this website so many different views which is some small way leads towards a greater understanding. While it is a great medium it does have it's limitations. Just remember spelling doesn't equal understanding. I have got the feeling when we all pass into the great beyond we all gonna think/say/feel I was sooooo wrong.

I cant even spell enlightenment never mind be it that still makes me laugh



Peace

reply to post by Razimus


This echoes my experience. I have been to this place or state that you have and it wasn't terribly difficult or mind blowing (that is to say I agree with how you say it is "simple"), but yes it felt great. I have definetly fallen away from it since then. I too think about "going back" every day. Though it doesn't seem to be fully in my heart just yet.

Now Mr Green has said we are meant to "move on" after we have experienced this part of the journey. For me I'm still trying to figure out what to do next.


reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Thank you again, very well said.

I find humor in a lot of situations especially with myself (because I've rarely had anything to truly worry about frankly yet somehow my mind always managed to make me think I was in living hell, you know what I mean, lol). I have certainly learned from this.

Sometimes its just sad though. Like if someone is trying to take care of their family and they just don't have enough time. They get angry. This is not funny how do we transcend this sort of true dilemma, these real problems. What's funny is when someone goes crazy angry over nothing, like having to wait in line lol. I have found myself that I usually get angry over pointless things, so I can certainly watch it unfold in myself. But for those who truly have things to get angry over, or worry about.. ew I do pity those situations.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by Novise]

Originally posted by Novise

But for those who truly have things to get angry over, or worry about.. ew I do pity those situations.

The question one would have to ask of oneself is, how is anger or worry ever beneficial? When is anger and worry the solution to a real problem one faces? I am not in any way saying there are not real threats to our physical being or that of those we love. I am wondering if there is ever a case where anger or worry is the MOST effective response. The response that has the highest likelihood of resolving the issue?

A fight? Is that the time to be worried or angry? Or does worry and anger make one sloppy and careless and more easily defeated? Are not the best fighters, those who train, marital artists, boxers, etc, are they not calmly watching their opponent for an opportunity and strategizing? Are they not taking advantage of the carelessness of their opponent if they get angry? Do they not actually goad their opponent into anger if they can so that they themselves might take advantage of that?

And worry, when is it justified? Most efficient? Is worry actually not a projection into tomorrow or the future of fear? Is it ever the most efficient thing to do to care for tomorrows problems at the expense of todays? Any moment you spend wrapped up in the future you are not fully aware of your surroundings today, and thus might miss that opportunity today that could save you from what you fear tomorrow. Do not governments deliberately instill worry and fear in their people in order that they might take advantage of them and lead them to support outrageous conclusions?

It is a simple fact that we DO get angry, or DO worry, but when is it the best thing for us in a reasoned way that takes into consideration the costs to us in the moment? Even someone who is losing a home for instance, in todays economy, is better served using their energy to look for a new place to live today or calling their bank or some other present action than simply worrying or having a tantrum about the injustice. Can it be injust? Absolutely. Is there "something to worry about?" Sure, there is a real situation looming, but worry and anger themselves are time and energy sinks that take one further from solutions not closer to them. Reasoned action in the moment (the power of NOW as Eckhardt Tolle would call it) is the actual method by which some better outcome can be implemented.

In that case, perhaps you would not find your worry or anger funny, if you took the time to step back and look at "yourself" but perhaps it would simply be seen for what it is. A misspending of time and energy on something that cannot possibly help you if you will only look at it for what it is, rather than identifying with it so closely that it FEELS utterly justified.

My ego does not like abrupt, unplanned for change any more than any one elses. However experience has taught me that if I only look, there is opportunity in every apparent tragedy. If nothing more, the opportunity to forge greater understanding and compassion for others. There will come a day when I die. And in that situation I will be in inescapable circumstances. Unconditional acceptance (love) will not "save" my body and mind from death. But the quality of the experience can change for me.

Heaven or hell are not two widely different places. They are opposite views of your Now.

Originally posted by Wertdagf

The divine... what is that again? Angels? Jesus? maybe our crown chakras? do i need to meditate to crystals, to understand the very reality around us?

I often will use multiple terms for God or the Divine. For me, I am not concerned with the label for a thing. Fighting over the label, even if that label is "fractal" is less important to me that that the person I am communicating with have an understanding of sorts about the broad thing I am trying to discuss with them.

Greater minds than my own have considered the problem of whether or not God or the Divine or the Transcendent can be spoken of meaningfully in the affirmative. Greater minds than my own have laid out very well reasoned arguments that anything we can say affirmative about God is inadequate. We can more easily say what God is not, than what God is. In part, this is because language by necessity describes the divided. It assumes duality. As do our thoughts, even the thoughts of the "enlightened." You cannot adequately and accurately think or talk about something non-dualistic with dualistic concepts. So, I do not try to with any real hope of doing so. I throw out terms until I feel there is sufficient understanding to move forward, knowing that there will never be real understanding conveyed by ME to THEM, (I cannot help them or give them anything) but instead if there is any understanding to be shared it is because within them there is already an intuitive understanding of the concept "God" that if we can settle on if no one gets too upset about the labels used.

Wars about God are not fought over God. They are fought over labels. If one takes the time to read the teachings attributed to the mystics and masters themselves, (not the mythologies created by the worshipful) one will find a very consistent message. The wars that are fought by countries are much the same as the wars that have been fought within this thread. Wars over words, labels and rituals that essentially have nothing to do with the core message of the masters.

These wars are not "holy wars" motivated by true understanding of the Divine, or God, or whatever you wish to call it. These are the same wars egos wage in every area of life. "I am RIGHT! YOU are WRONG! I am SPECIAL!" There is nothing special about feeling special. Every ego ever born feels this way. It is a division of oneself from all others, from existence itself that serves to strengthen and support the Egos desire for actual, factual existence as a "thing."

What the masters and mystics have been trying to point us to is not to war over "rightness" or to increase division, but rather to accept that there is a unity, and non-division. An inherent "un-dividableness" of all that IS. Where is there room for a battle there? How can you attack an "other" if the truth is there is nothing that can be truly called "other" at all?

Originally posted by Novise
reply to post by Razimus

 

Now Mr Green has said we are meant to "move on" after we have experienced this part of the journey. For me I'm still trying to figure out what to do next.

Im not saying we are meant to move from this state, I really have no idea where to go after you feel it. All I know is I dont seem to be progressing whilst staying in its comfort. Its too beautiful, it touches my soul so deep that I cant see beyond because of its brightness. I think SS,Naga is right, feel it, remember its there to call back on but use it to move on to what ever is next.

Writing my post about leaving its comfort effected me more than I thought. For a moment I felt sad, very very sad as if I was rejecting it. I know this isnt the case but actually writing it down did effect me. I felt it all day after writing that post, it surrounded me and filled my heart. If you ever feel you've lost the connection just open your heart chakra fully to unconditional love, the bliss will return. This is how it returns to me.

It would be so easy just to stay with it but I feel for me now I need to move on. You say your trying to work out where to go next, I have no idea where next is either but I just know I need to change direction. I think the next stage will find us all when we are ready, I dont think we need to actually work it out as you say.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Children play in the sandbox.
Adolescents play in a bigger sandbox.
Mature Adults sometimes play, sometime battle.
Warrior Spirits enter the Universal Battle of Balance.*

(*The Two Forces, Body & Spirit, Dragon & Eagle, Evil & Good).

Staying within a state of Bliss is the same as leaving your car running in the driveway.
It's nice to have it; know it's there, maybe even run to the store for a whirl.

But the Journey is Waiting to be Begun.

Sorry, I was delighted to read your last post.
And yes, you will see the Single Eye many times. Just Look. Lift Up Your Eyes (actual action - It shifts energy inception!)



[edit on 14-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

Thank you. I dont fully understand this post or your theory on God is Light and mind, but thank you.

Thank you for all your posts I enjoy reading them. I may not understand them, and sometimes not agree with them but I like them, you have a unique and strong energy. This is good.

reply to post by leomurray


I feel like you are making something simple seem very complex. Try reading Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda. Yogananda and his enlightened master, Sri Yukteswar, knew what they were talking about.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


These symbols were givin as a way to show the structure of reality... a design that runs through every thought.... every conversation...every evolution. It is understandable and predictable.

GOD was ment as the word Causality.

Tetragrammaton YHWH, This design is a fractal.

There is nothing to fight over other than those who will suffer at your reiforcement of their delusions.

These people you call great masters.... what is it they did? sit in a temple smoke poppy and say things like.

"We are like birds who dive into the water to see what it is like to be fish. At first it is cold, but soon you feel comfortable. Then when you realize you cant breath you jump out of the water and shake off your wings and fly away." - Wertdagf

Wow im sure glad they shared that... i mean we wouldnt have monks lighting themselves on fire if only more of this knowledge was out there.... O YEAH THATS RIGHT you acctualy have to do somthing! Im sure their sitting in the temples smoking some more nirvanna.

Those old brittle men have clinged so long to the thought of NOT understanding the world around them.. that their minds are weak.
I dont see them bursting into light butterflys and stoping the chinese from raping the people that worship their ignorance.

It assumes duality. As do our thoughts, even the thoughts of the "enlightened." You cannot adequately and accurately think or talk about something non-dualistic with dualistic concepts

Heres a shocker reality is dualistic. You need to explain reality right? YOUR IN LUCK!!!! you live in the very thing you need to explain. Im sure you could find the words if you looked.

But you dont bother to do that do you?

I do not try to with any real hope of doing so. I throw out terms until I feel there is sufficient understanding to move forward, knowing that there will never be real understanding conveyed by ME to THEM

So you make useless statements with unclear words... to do nothing? What good are you? Starting out with the idea of not being able to do anything is almost like a self fullfilling prophecy.

I dont think your going to get anywhere, thinking you cant get anywhere.



[edit on 14-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf


So you make useless statements with unclear words... to do nothing? What good are you? Starting out with the idea of not being able to do anything is almost like a self fullfilling prophecy.

I dont think your going to get anywhere, thinking you cant get anywhere.

I am getting plenty of "Where." If you are not trying to sell anything it matters not if anyone buys, now does it? I dont care if anyone "follows me." And, people do not have to agree with me. I like to reason things through, and, when it comes to matters like these, spiritual matters, I enjoy back and forth discussion about them. It refines my own thinking to try and explain my view. I dont care if someone agrees with it or not. I suppose it is more flattering to my ego if you would all just start throwing flowers at me chanting "O Messiah" but I really dont need my ego any more inflamed than it already is.

However, in your criticism of my way of doing things, how is yours superior?
What exactly do you think you are conveying? How is what you are doing more effective in any way?

Has your technique yielded armies of people marching to save the Tibetans? Any one at all? How is your demonstrated technique, that of attack, and mockery, and belittling doing any thing at all to make any improvements in any thing at all?

You say you want to deal with "reality, this very thing we live in," well, so do I. It just depends what level of reality you care to stop with. Do you mean the reality as you see it? Apparent reality? As described by the Aristotelian world view? The Newtonion world view? The Quantum view? You seem to be assuming as self evident that your view of reality is the only possible one, the correct one, but, aside from throwing out names like "causality" or "fractal" you are not showing us how to see it that way. HOW is the universe like a fractal? Or should your word alone be enough? HOW is God causality, and, more importantly, what am I in relation to such a God?


If you are sincere in your wish to better the world, you should realize you are not really convincing as a messenger of peace. . You come across as very bitter, and angry, and divisive. I fail to see how any of what you offer, if you are the result of your own spiritual teaching, would be any improvement at all over what the world already has. We already have people willing to fight and hate one another because "we are right and they are wrong." We already have tons of spiritualists who will throw out sayings and terms, that sound profound but then never provide any reasoning which would allow someone to travel logically down that path and make their own conclusions. We already have people who claim to be horrified at the suffering in the world but then react with violence if anyone disagrees with them.

What I mean by masters, are not fairy tales told by "true believers" who turn a normal albeit wiser human into something supernatural. What I mean by "masters" are those who have mastered the art of living and relating to this world and to others. Those who dont just babble about peace and love and justice, but those whose lives demonstrate consistency between what comes out of their mouths, and how they behave. Some of these masters happen to have had religions spring up around them, but I do not confuse the person with the myth. I take my time to sort the two, as best I can, using "reality" as a aide. (secular historical knowledge, archaeology, etc.) Some of these masters have NOT had religions spring up around them, and there isnt much sorting to be done. You can read what they wrote, and what their contemporaries wrote about them.


If you are inclined to spiritual leadership as a career, and you are not really interested in bringing peace, you still need some refining of your technique. I would study those who have been successful at it. I do not mean those I call "masters" they by and large were not successful at it. Some of them got executed for what they did. Others lived rather uneventfully, some of their names are not even known, we only have scraps of what they wrote. No, if you seek to be a successful religious leader, I would study the faith healers, the televangelists, new age gurus, etc., those who make a tidy profit and who draw lots of followers.

If your goal is to teach people to actually care about one another, you might want to reconsider using aggressive or violent means to do so. The inconsistency tends to undermine your credibility.

If your goal is simply ego aggrandizement and personal enrichment, you need to first collect some followers and THEN direct your aggression and violence outward, at "them" whomever you denote "them" to be. But you have to have an "us" first, or it is just you against the world.

You say you want to deal with "reality, this very thing we live in," well, so do I. It just depends what level of reality you care to stop with. Do you mean the reality as you see it? Apparent reality? As described by the Aristotelian world view? The Newtonion world view? The Quantum view? You seem to be assuming as self evident that your view of reality is the only possible one, the correct one, but, aside from throwing out names like "causality" or "fractal" you are not showing us how to see it that way. HOW is the universe like a fractal? Or should your word alone be enough? HOW is God causality, and, more importantly, what am I in relation to such a God?

The Vaccum contians infinite density... everything we see is mearly a fractal division of the vaccum.

Galaxys, hurricanes, atoms, solar systems, sink drains, Its all self evident of a design of the expansion and contraction of the vaccum. Your very hand is made up of many trillions of atoms all within themselves singularitys that can be divided to infinty. Everything is 99.999999999% space....

Watch the video. It has visuals for you... speed it up if your to lazy to watch the whole thing.

All of this is Casuality... everything contracts and expands in a definable way. The sad thing is many people just dont belive they will ever understand why ... So they DONTseek to undersatnd the logical progressions that brought them to their thoughts or situations... they instead fill it with crap like the divine is testing me.... or im not relating to the divine enough.

Stop convincing people that the situations in their lives arise from somthing outside of their capability to understand. They can know everything about themselves its all logical... from your hair and eye color... to the very thoughts in your head this moment.

How do you get to somone who has convinced themselves they will never understand... that they will never be able to explain it if they figured it out.... and that it wouldnt matter if they knew. What a slavery to ignorance. These people will hurt so many. Time to kick butt and take names.

this is "tough love" there will be many more who will be much more vicious to themselves when they finnaly understand how little they allowed themselves to see and for such a long time... can you imagine the guilt?





[edit on 14-1-2009 by Wertdagf]