Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Hell even a tiny bike model that could have been given to me with proper explination would remove all unknowns.

You cannot remove unknowns. You put a person on a 2 wheel bike and without training wheels there is a very good chance they will fall.

All you can do is try to explain, and also assure them that with practice most everyone can learn to ride the bike.

What is that? It is faith and desire. Once you have ridden the bike, it is no longer faith. Then its knowing.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Instead of just the back and forth arguing with this poster or that, why dont you just explain what you think people should do?

Clearly you have a vision of how things should be, what people should do. I have heard lots of "you shouldnt do, think, etc, that..." but stated as a positive, what DO you think?

I cannot promise I will agree, or heed anything you say, lol. But I am curious as to what your views are stated outright, rather than alluded to in back and forth exchanges.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Instead of just the back and forth arguing with this poster or that, why dont you just explain what you think people should do?

Honestly he strikes me as a wounded soul that truly would like some answers. He seems very sincere in some of his posts. He sounds honestly curious.

If he asked for honest advise regarding how to start, I was going to refer him to you. You are much better at explaining things.

I believe that the univese is a fractal structure here is a very long lecture eplaining it.

Fractal Universe

The symbols we have such as the flower of life and the star of david are expressions of 3d fractals. This is what was explained to them as GOD. It is casuality that we have all been running around trying to explain, with mysticism.

With GOD as causality all of these things make sense:
Have faith in GOD to show you what it is you need to know
That GOD created you.
That one who knows GOD would love you
It may even explain why Jesus called himself the son of GOD.

"As above, so below." "on earth as in heaven" "Forgive us as we forgive others"

GOD/causality is your creator.... as much as you would like to think your mind is separate from your surroundings... they are co-creators of who you are through GOD/casuality.

To say you are only the "drawing" when a "stinsil" formed you is ignorant. GOD is not in heaven anwsering your prayers.

Not understanding the causality that leads to where we are now makes you repeat the same mistakes over and over. It is the smoke of torment that rises for ever and ever.

reply to post by Mr Green

First, Mr Green, I have gone through all these 'discussed' experiences, many years ago and currently! I raised the Full Nuclear Fire 35 yrs. ago. It is well beyond words: I do not doubt you, for I can see by your spoken description the analogies that are real. Same here.

Now, you have these experiences, and you begin the Inner Journey. Let me assure you, ALL is Mind. Yes, that's right. Doesn't sit well? Well, then you must begin to seek more. I have written quite a bit of this up throughout ATS: some are well aware of this (the more advanced), and some haven't a clue.

Now, instead of placing a diagram here that becomes copyright ATS, which I don't care for, let me describe All Mind just slightly for you: The WORD.

You must seek further, to know the implications. Maybe some wonderful enlightened person will come on here and further this Awareness for us? I will dabble a bit with it, now and again.

LOVE: Surely, not. All can know Love, for Everything is Within the Womb of Creation. Mind, Creation is both Immaterial and Atomic; both Waveform and Particle. You probably are aware of this. First Essence is S/He, the Cause, the Initial Impetus. If you desire knowledge here, I am willing; but a closed mind carries one ever backwards, not forwards.

Why am I so Sure? Many people have 'awakenings,' many read and study; others are blessed with Both. Not only have I known the 'Both,' but the avatar namesake stepped forth and gave to me The WORD. People seem to want to shy away from this Truth. The Truth is, indeed, VERY frightening: You feel it in the depths of your Soul(s); many run and hide. I see you standing your ground. I want you to know this is not error or fantasy, but as real as anything You have ever experienced yourself! Love & Wisdom; Feminine & Masculine; Dark & Light; Within & Without, ad infinitum.
I was 7 days and nights receiving this information. It left me (never saw again!) with the wisdom of this knowledge, telling me it was "Futuretense."

Good thing, I couldn't convey it to anyone one way or another. Too complex. I can experience It, but only my wife and I can share that at this time.

Until you can learn about the Two Poles of Mind, the same as The Two Poles of Soul-Spirit, or the Two Poles of the One WORD, you will remain in The Maze. Cruel, thoughtless statement? I assure you once again, exactly the opposite. Take it from there, Within.

reply to post by Mr Green

"I have seen an eye just like this, it was open, its iris was blue, bright blue."

I posted about the Inner Single Eye (not the 3rd Eye), and then noticed I had a u2u. I clicked it as soon as I finished the posting, and it was KennyRJR. Holy Crud, Batman, he Saw the Eye! Talk about Synchronicity (capital "S")! I asked him if he would post his experience, and he did. Apparently only narin has the Sight around here. He noticed right away. I call this the Spirit speaking on this thread, hidden before virtually all here.

And you Acknowledged this Post of mine, didn't You? Why would I tell the people here One Truth, and then lie or makeup about Another (Two Poles of Mind, The WORD)? I wouldn't: You are your own validation about this!

And thank you Very Much! I often wondered if anybody saw other than Green! Blue, eh? Beautiful. I have actual hazel eyes, wonder if that's related?

Now, step past the Single Eye, and Emblaze this into the Next Stage: The Inner Sun! Here is your Living Soul Lifeforce Energy. As Real as the Outer 'Real' Sun. Behind our Sol Sun, Within the Etheric Field(s), is the Eye of the Sun, Watching. If more people only knew. (shivver!).

[edit on 13-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Very helpful answer, very useful. It's like Sonya said in reply as well. So You let the ego be what it will be I guess. This to me is a very important part of the discussion.

Enlightenment - an action in which the "king priest" shows the way to the creations perfect state of being, that is desired by the Creator.
One must remember that "enlightenment" is a gift from the Creator via the "king priest" to the creation. Like all gifts, it can not be taken unless it has first been given. No matter how hard you search for the gift, it cannot be obtained. What will be found, though, is the Giver of the gift, who is often over looked for want of the gift itself.
Everything else is just a distraction which leads a person away from the source of "enlightenment". Young children know this simple truth. Watch them and "re-member" yourself to this truth.
Good Luck,
Glenn

reply to post by Wertdagf


Phrased like that, I do not think we are too far apart on most of those points.

(Assuming I am understanding them correctly of course.)

I would choose different terms or words here or there, but much of that is merely habit rather than necessity.

So in your view of things, how do you feel people should act in relation to one another? Do you feel there are rules, or set forms of behavior that should always be in place? (Such as do unto others.... etc.) Or do you feel more like you should allow the Divine or God to lead you in the moment?

reply to post by SS,Naga

 

reply to post by Mr Green

"I have seen an eye just like this, it was open, its iris was blue, bright blue."

I posted about the Inner Single Eye (not the 3rd Eye), and then noticed I had a u2u. I clicked it as soon as I finished the posting, and it was KennyRJR. Holy Crud, Batman, he Saw the Eye! Talk about Synchronicity (capital "S")! I asked him if he would post his experience, and he did. Apparently only narin has the Sight around here.
He noticed right away.
I call this the Spirit speaking on this thread, hidden before virtually all here.

Hmmmmm.... here's where we depart ways.
As i see the circumstance, is that yourself, SS,Naga, and the
Mr Green share this understood vision of the Eye...
because youse are 3 individuals which understand the same language.


I would submit that others hear and understand another language
which is speaking similar messages,
for instance,
I completely understand the shamanic world view with animal spirit helpers which one other poster here breaks-down...see:

reply from Tayesin

[...]
For me, it is the ability to open up at will to the light of our higher awareness as Soul. To then be that being here in the physical 3D is the task we all face as we step-up into humanity's next phase of evolution.

My experience was of being prepared with "Guides" (higher-self as primary guide and others as Helpers) over many months, which involved regaining memories of other lives lived in order to know the paths the soul I am has taken to reach NOW.

This was followed by weeks of intensive training with the energy centres called Chakra, cleasing them and healing old issues, etc, before raising the Kundalini from the Base Chakra to the Crown Chakra... which ripped "me" apart so that "I" no longer existed as separate from the Universe. The experience was of being the universe [...]

the 'Eye' several of you report, is similar to the point-of-light at the end of a tunnel exit, way yonder, which I myself envision....
I am aware and appreciative as the semi distant round opening becomes larger and more intense as i walk-glide through this ''tunnel',

the light shining towards my spirit becomes intense white-yellow,
it is as a summer sun, a warm & welcoming white-with a yellowish tint.

And thru this portal, my spirit body/soul 'sees' as though i were an Eagle in flight and had entered another etheral plane...but standing still at the same time to talk without words to the persons & creatures before me.



I can 'see' where others with a different world-view would describe this phenomenon as a inner Eye... but that's only because we speak & converse in different dialects , using different words and tongues, for the similar inner journey


Tell me/us, if i'm wrong,
thanks,

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Wertdagf

 

Phrased like that, I do not think we are too far apart on most of those points.

(Assuming I am understanding them correctly of course.)

I would choose different terms or words here or there, but much of that is merely habit rather than necessity.

So in your view of things, how do you feel people should act in relation to one another? Do you feel there are rules, or set forms of behavior that should always be in place? (Such as do unto others.... etc.) Or do you feel more like you should allow the Divine or God to lead you in the moment?

GOD/casuality always leads you through each moment, because it is what formed the words you speak.. the thoughts you express through them. It is inexcapable. Do unto others is agian illistrating the concept of causality in mental development... in brings about the development of empahty, because you acknowledge possible emoitional responses and feel them within yourself.

so yes it is a needed concept. LOL the "training wheels" of decision making.



[edit on 13-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

[edit on 13-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Novise

Very helpful answer, very useful. It's like Sonya said in reply as well. So You let the ego be what it will be I guess. This to me is a very important part of the discussion.

Yes you accept that it is what it is, but, you do not have to let it be the driver all the time. That is a choice that you can make.

If for instance, "you" in a moment of complete identification with your ego, get stomping mad, you can experiment by taking a breath, and not trying to force the ego into docility, but rather take a step back and simply watch it stomping around slamming doors and cursing. "You" might notice that it looks like a child throwing a tantrum, and, that it looks funny.

You have done nothing violent to the ego, not chastised it, shamed it, or attempted to force it into a more "holy" way of being, you just watched it. Accepted it unconditionally. But by withdrawing identification from it, by being the watcher, not the tantrum, it suddenly runs out of fuel. Generally, the tantrum stops shortly after you realize it is not "you" that is stomping around.

The nice thing about this is that you can see for yourself. Granted, it takes practice to catch yourself in a highly inflamed moment, but you can start in calmer moments watching "yourself." You dont have to take my, or any ones word for it, you can look and see for yourself.

Originally posted by Wertdagf

GOD/casuality always leads you through each moment, because it is what formed the words you speak.. the thoughts you express through them. It is inexcapable. Do unto others is agian illistrating the concept of causality in mental development... in brings about the development of empahty, because you acknowledge possible emoitional responses and feel them within yourself.

I would tend to agree that in the moment it is possible to let God, or the Divine, or even your higher Self, depending on the words someone prefers, guide you in the moment.

Lao Tzu says of this;

academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

18
When the great Tao is forgotten,
goodness and piety appear.
When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth.
When there is no peace in the family,
filial piety begins.
When the country falls into chaos,
patriotism is born.

Which means essentially that we construct rules to govern our behavior as we move away from the "conscious intelligence in the moment" that some might call their connection to God or the Divine. Obviously, he is indicating that having this deeper connection to the Divine, or understanding of causality as you might say, is the best way, and the others are secondary to that.

Very interesting. Your word choices are different, but that is to be expected whenever two people with different experiences communicate.

The words i use are based on its purpose. It is not just you reading this... its not just this bubble i have to explain it to. Its everyone in the world who must understand this. Finding the root concepts behind words is your only choice.

Although sometime you must tinge it with somone else dementia, to bring them out of their shell. (if its needed)

Really all you need to do it through down your staff... turn it into a snake and let it kick ass. Thats how they did it in the bible atleast. 2 enter one leaves.

reply to post by St Udio
Shockingly, you've merely taken the stage a few steps further. If you will please click 'thread' on one of my posts (think that'll work), you'll see where I indicate it is merely a fractional aspect of the experience.

I pass through the eye quickly, rarely even stop in direct-connect at the point, because It is merely the beginning of the doorway. Did you not read my full post? Do you, then, with your shamanic training (like mine! surprise!), not know of the further stage, where the Inner Sun reflects down, through the Eye? You see a soft yellow-white glow? I see the Golden-Yellow Spheroid of the Inner Blazing Egg-Like Sun. From here, the Journey begins, each time.

Do you know what it is? Do you recognize this as Your Energy Source of connect with the hidden feminine Double, Other, or Energy Self (feminine, remember)?

I wouldn't dream of revealing what happens at this point, or can happen. This is ATS. Not shamanic training.

Let me see how well you know yourself: I can do many things with the Golden-White Spheroid (Inner Sun): It is your very Power Source. Can you Draw the Sword, the Crystal Shard, the Electric Spark of this ARC, and Know the birthing of The BOLT? Have you Seen, or been shown the Inner Silver-Black Moon (ARC)?

Yes, you jive well, but it is the same as getting into a car and Starting The Engine. Get it?

Now, since you're trained in the shamanic knowledge, let me see if I can't sneak something of use in here for you: What Enables the Movement of the Assemblage Point? Where & how is it steered, operated from? You say Will & Intent? those are a bit confusional here, which will not convey adequate Meaning.

May I presume you don't Know? Sorry, I will not reveal this Intense Mystery here. Perhaps you can maneuver it somewhat yourself, or have it done for you (beyond the dreaming maneuver).

But, as said, good one. Never underestimate a sorcerer, yes? were you not taught this?

And your quote from the other poster? A very good beginning. It started with me at age 11, when I maneuvered spontaneously into another world, physically. Is this pretend? I've known the real within: I've had the All-Infinite Oneness of Cosmic Consciousness (read his post!): It is exactly as he says. To have the Knowing of Something, you barely have time to have the Awareness of it before it is Revealed. At least the person who quoted this will understand this statement. Nor is it unbelievable. I read once how rare it is. Hardly that. Mostly just impossible to convey, describe; so it rarely is. I tried once, and was laughed at mercilessly. Haha. I was even accused of making the state of consciousness up. At least here, on ATS, some know it is very Real. I give credit to such bold individuals.

But me, I cannot speak of it, for if I do, the haters step forth, because of my roots: they feel the authentic danger. Feel it: go ahead. Check inside for a moment. Oh, you are familiar with the Fauna? Then speak a little bolder, and watch how they turn on you here! You might not be frightened, but they are. Believe me. The crushing of the Lower Ego does that to the Cycle Rounders. And they've experienced it many times, and remember it, genetically, and within their soul-structure. I've seen it, have you? I've seen the King of the World. Never heard of this One, or taken the Journey? Perhaps I've lost everyone. If not, and you know the shamanic ways, be prepared for a surprise. I'm kidding? I'd be stoned by the ATS'ers if I revealed it. So would you; so would anyone. Here is not the place, yes?

I can go to the Depths, and the Heights, in that order. Thanks for the strange post. If you read carefully, you'll see I've aided one individual along the way, who is currently beginning the Journey Within, way beyond what is discussed here. It's called Death & Resurrection: been doing this yourself? Even my wife has: she's as good as me: can reassemble herself from 'Nothing' (The Double Self, not astral or etheric; the Real Double).

Know the Truth? Seen the Plumes? Do you know what I'm talking about? Only few can, if any. But then again, we (I) might get a few answers to the challenge.

Btw, once upon a time the Eastern Knowledge was loosed upon the Western Culture: it was male aspected. Now, the Shamanic Knowledge has been Released (once again, the Two Poles: Everest & Titicaca), bringing into the Knowing of Mankind the Hidden Feminine Birth of the Earth Double (what most call ascension pontential). Here is the secret Boost that all speak so knowingly of.

This was revealed to me by one quite similar to the shamanic death defier Avatar, or Quetzalcoatl (by any name): the SS,Naga. Been around a long time. Man's hubris is that they think they are equals with the Naga Rulers here: in a way, after so many millions of years, perhaps. The rounds take a long time.

But I am gratified to speak with one of shamanic awareness. As long as it is real.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by Wertdagf


Why do you feel it is your job to spread a message? To be evangelical? Why do you not assume that the Divine will lead others in a way that is best suited for them?

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


People have been riding this mountian biking with no seat. Dont you see how the lack of the understanding of causality causes so much pain? Agian i ask where does your compassion stop? What is it that must be burned into somone flesh for them to understand? Not this.... not this understanding of GOD/causality.

reply to post by Wertdagf


I do see how humans have been suffering. Absolutely. And, it pains me as much as anyone. Unfortunately, I also see that sharing a divinely inspired vision is a very tricky thing. People tend to get stuck on particular words and phrases and then the meaning behind the message gets lost. Something that is beautiful at its core more often than not gets degraded to "idol worship" of a sort, where people follow the words that suit them, ignore those that dont, and become trapped in ritualistic observance, rather than being ignited to forge their own relationship to the Divine and each other.

Good intentions, as they say, pave the road to hell. With many of the worlds religions that does seem to be the case.

Many of the mystics and masters seemed to think that acting the example was superior to words. That by modeling they could avoid the propensity of humans to lock onto specific terms and miss the message in doing so.

posted by Illusionsaregrander

 

Why do you not assume that the Divine will lead others in a way that is best suited for them?

May I say a word about this?

This 'Divine' you speak of: is this religious? You mean through the endless cycles of death and rebirth? Like in natural evolution, which cannot, with all it's knowledge, with all it's light, push one into the state of ascension?

That's why. I know, the rapture. The Rapture is an Earned state, achieved through Individual Effort. You speak of The Earth Boost? Do you not realize that only those who have Earned the Boost will Follow-Through? Earth Itself may not make it. (Yes, amazing things can happen!).

So much for the fantasy of waiting for a savior to save. I hate to be the ugly one who tells the Truth, but children and adolescents both like to play, and dream. The work must be done by the Self, the Individual, or they can depend on a nice annhilation of the Lower Ego (called 'Self-awareness').

Of course I'm wrong. Children and adolescents dream, and they believe everything they are told, because of a mispresented, crooked book, perhaps; or ignorant parents, or lying mediators.

The Divine will have you for dinner. Oh-oh, don't say such things? Can you say:

The Universe, the Serpent that swallows It's Own Tail? Consumes It's Own Self?

Even Prime Creatoress must Eat. Even Galaxies Eat One Another. All Pure Truth.

Of course, the Truth is Evil, yes? And very frightening to face.

Oh, when the End of this Universe-Set Completes, some left-overs will be around. It may be those who waited for divinity to guide them, then refused to enter the Serpent's Mouth. We don't do that, we go to jesu? 1st to 4th D, all is Food. Then, at the 5th or Pivot-level ('Soul'), the energy transmutes, but only the Pure is Transmuted. It is an Earned State, which went through the Fires of the Serpents, and Become the Hawk-Serpent.
Quetzalcoatl, the Serpent God (Aztec jesu), Man's 'savior' (inside-joke)
copyright 2004 SM MAHN/BITTLER - SYNNABAR

[edit on 14-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

People tend to get stuck on particular words and phrases and then the meaning behind the message gets lost. Something that is beautiful at its core more often than not gets degraded to "idol worship" of a sort, where people follow the words that suit them, ignore those that dont, and become trapped in ritualistic observance

This is what we have all been seeing here on this thread, it was thick..... this the cause of millions of deaths every day. They even used the sheer magnitude of the delusion to reinforce its sugnificance. ITS MADNESS.

heres a tad right here... these words could have many meanings

rather than being ignited to forge their own relationship to the Divine and each other.

The divine... what is that again? Angels? Jesus? maybe our crown chakras? do i need to meditate to crystals, to understand the very reality around us?

what is the definition of enlightenment?

A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.


what is nirvana?

1. (Hinduism and Buddhism) the beatitude that transcends the cycle of reincarnation; characterized by the extinction of desire and suffering and individual consciousness
2. any place of complete bliss and delight and peace [syn: Eden]

by these definitions, it sounds like nobody can claim to be enlightened. If you live in this world and care about others, how can there be enlightenment here with so many problems?

This kind of speaks to my opinion that reincarnation is a stumble toward true enlightenment.

This is why I believe our spirit is one and until we are all enlightened, none of us will experience nirvana.

But of course, it's just an opinion.