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Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

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posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 07:19 PM
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reply to post by Wertdagf
 


IF everyone understood the things about the universe and God or causality that you wished them to know, how would they live? How would they behave towards one another? What is the benefit to people and the world of understanding?

And, (and I am not being sassy here, but sincere) how do those who can never understand, (such as someone with a mental disability) fit into the scheme? Is understanding the crucial part? ( Ie; only those who understand can find harmony, peace, nirvana, heaven, or a good life, however you see a positive out come.) Or can the world be made better even if some never can understand?




posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Thanks again. I agree that worry and anger are not effective, they get in the way of your clear thinking. As a general rule this is true. My response to Mr. Green is also for your ears, or eyes, whatever



reply to post by Mr Green
 


"Im not saying we are meant to move from this state, I really have no idea where to go after you feel it."

Yes I should have said you brought up the idea. It was a good point or possibility for you to bring into the discussion.

"I think the next stage will find us all when we are ready, I dont think we need to actually work it out as you say. "

Oh I agree totally. Nothing spiritual ever happened to me before I was prepared or ready. When I say spiritual don't get me wrong I'm not talking about seeing third eyes or seeing out of them and stuff like a kundalini awakening that feels like energy lasers are shooting up your spine as this has never happened with me, but still spiritual things have happened with me. A legitimate spiritual experience doesn't have to be supernatural or amazing to make it legitimate.

My first big "When the student is ready the teacher appears" moment was a one minute conversation with a man at a party. It was so personal and so simple. On some level anything can be a teacher to a willing/listening student. Not that those sorts of moments of clarity (and possibly synchronicity) happen often where it is a powerful lesson, but the lesson is made. And some people would take that saying and spin that simple saying the wrong way, as if it means: "If you haven't found a lifelong guru then you aren't ready."

Which to me is totally incorrect. In fact a few people are saying things along the lines of "If X hasn't happened then you don't "Know" or you aren't there. This is in my opinion very misleading. Good news is that any honest and willing soul will make positive progress if they step onto this path and mean well. They will at least find it as an option, or choice, there is no reason not to give this an honest chance.



posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 



It would be a utopian society. There would be nothing stopping someone from understanding everything. Right now there is a massive block that comes from 80% of the world, because of religion. People doign bad things because of the devil.... evil spirits tempting their thoughts.

You are mearly a self aware division of the vaccum. Some are more aware than others. This may cause your heart to skip becasue it might mean there is no afterlife or magical heaven after you die.

I... dont... know what happens after you die. There is no proof of it at all beyond human delusion and fear of nothingness.



posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by Novise

Oh I agree totally. Nothing spiritual ever happened to me before I was prepared or ready.


I would also agree with this. Nothing ever happened to me before I was ready either. But, what I would have THOUGHT was ready and what was actually a state of readiness are very different things. Had I been looking at my life from a religious standpoint, it is hard to imagine appearing less ready.




Originally posted by Novise
When I say spiritual don't get me wrong I'm not talking about seeing third eyes or seeing out of them and stuff like a kundalini awakening that feels like energy lasers are shooting up your spine as this has never happened with me, but still spiritual things have happened with me.


Again, I agree. I think saying that you must see this or that or the other is like saying that if you are on the way to my house and do not pass a McDonalds on the way, you arent coming to my house. In truth, there are several routes to my house, (some longer than others) and before I can assume you are going the wrong way I have to find out more about what you are seeing. I need to know where you are and what route you are taking before I can make a judgment as to whether or not you have missed a turn. If you fixate on the landmarks YOU saw on your way to a place, you may mistakenly lead someone off a valid path to your common destination.



Originally posted by Novise
A legitimate spiritual experience doesn't have to be supernatural or amazing to make it legitimate.


I would agree. I would also say that not every supernatural or amazing experience is actually a legitimate spiritual one. In my opinion, and it is a studied one, not merely ignorant opinion, there seems to be a remarkably similar view of "what is" and how we relate to that by those who are reported to have experienced "enlightenment." Be they famous or not. It agrees with my own first hand experience, but that isnt good methodology, really, as of course I will be biased by my own experience, particularly when it is supported by many very notable historical figures. I suppose we could all be wrong. That has to be considered. We are at least very consistently wrong if that is the case.


Originally posted by Novise
On some level anything can be a teacher to a willing/listening student.


I take that even further myself, in that I regard every single thing or person as a teacher. I feel, though I have never had a personal guru, that the whole of existence is there to show me exactly what I need to see or know in a given moment. It simply requires a willingness to look, and listen. People arent always teaching you what THEY think they are teaching you, but they are teaching you something that you need to know in that moment.



Originally posted by Novise
Good news is that any honest and willing soul will make positive progress if they step onto this path and mean well. They will at least find it as an option, or choice, there is no reason not to give this an honest chance.


I would make the good news even better. You dont even need to consciously step your foot on a path. I didnt. I was agnostic. And raised that way. I had no indoctrinization at all into religion other than my own forays into churches with friends to see what was up with this or that faith. I believed there was something Divine, but I rejected all religious dogmas. I had always had a fondness for mythology, and philosophy, and religion as an observer. However I did not meditate, (on crystals or otherwise) attend any ceremony, or even read any "how to" books on becoming enlightened. I really didnt care.

In fact, the night before my own experience I tore into "God" with some rather vehement and creative cursing. It didnt prevent me having my own experience. When the seed is ready to sprout, it sprouts. I did little to deserve it. Granted, I have always been of fairly good character, but I have also made my fair share of mistakes. I do not think enlightenment is a reward, or lack of enlightenment is a punishment. I think that some how, some way, the ego has to end up weakened enough that the "Self" can shine past it. If only for a second. Just a tiny glimpse of "What is" is enough. It may take years for you to sort out what to do about that "knowing" in regards to how to apply it practically. But once seen/experienced it is never forgotten. It was the most "real" moment of my life, and it has changed my life profoundly for the better.



posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf

Some are more aware than others. This may cause your heart to skip becasue it might mean there is no afterlife or magical heaven after you die.

I... dont... know what happens after you die. There is no proof of it at all beyond human delusion and fear of nothingness.



As another small pointer in more effectively communicating your message, you have to be careful not to offend unnecessarily because you are assuming what another thinks or wants.

I, for instance, have no expectation that this identity that I call "me" will survive death. At least not in any way that would be meaningful to my ego. As I pointed out in another post, I could get amnesia in this life and this identity could be erased. Sometimes, an ego doesnt even survive life, much less death.

As to your other part, that we are small instances of a vacuum, that is not far from what I believe as well. I would never call it a vacuum. That implies an emptiness and deadness I could not agree with. However the idea of "us" being a small instance or expression of something larger, like a fractal, is not averse to my way of thinking at all. Hence the fractal avatar.



posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 





And, (and I am not being sassy here, but sincere) how do those who can never understand, (such as someone with a mental disability) fit into the scheme? Is understanding the crucial part? ( Ie; only those who understand can find harmony, peace, nirvana, heaven, or a good life, however you see a positive out come.) Or can the world be made better even if some never can understand?


The emotion that came along with this paragraph lead me to belive that you mocked the idea of handicapped not having souls because they couldnt understand.

Without the concept of a soul... if you cant understand the entire design of teh world around you then you cant be enlightened.

I would hope for an afterlife...



posted on Jan, 14 2009 @ 11:14 PM
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I think on this plane, there is only...enlightenment at a period. Because, I do not think that enlightenment ever has a peak point. It is something, like knowledge, that can keep on growing. You do not become enlightened and that is the end of that...you become enlightened...and keep on becoming enlightened as you grow, live, die and live again.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by sdrawkcabII
 


Yes, yes. enlightenment is truly as you say: ever expanding, ever growing (accumulating). And it is all recorded in the Light. However, do not forget that Pure essence which may survive the destruction of the lower ego through correct application of knowledge. The denouement of the cylce of natural (flesh) life / light. Now, don't get me wrong, there is no 'map' there. It is something beyond that, or they'd be selling everyone 'ascension maps,' if it were that simple, yes?

But let's at least include the potential achievement of the Pure Essence of Regenerational State of One Being (many in the One). You have friends there, be aware! You've just forgotten them!

In other words, not only Reincarnation, but the aspect of Eternal Progression. If one is real, so is the other.

Once you experience direct perception of awareness in the Soul Body, every last fraction of doubt of continuance beyond the physical is removed. Even clear-consciousness astral projection will do this for most. If you haven't experienced this, it doesn't mean it isn't so: you just are lacking this experience.

I once talked with a very skeptical individual, but he allowed the notion of an afterlife because he had experienced a profound NDE, and it convinced him of continuation of being. Lower ego dissolves, or is 'crushed' after a time, before the reincarnation; the higher 'egoic' self remains, but is not 'you:' it's a 'clean slate' with the previous awareness potentiated as both genetic 'memory' and 'soul impression.' Sad, but so. It is best to achieve what was mentioned above, or to make every effort one can!



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:06 AM
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reply to post by sdrawkcabII
 


Just like using the patterns around us to define meaning in this level of reality we may have to experiance multiple lives in order to grasp the next greater level of cauality. It may be true then that certian things must be shown through causality in "incarnations".

Although there may be nothing.... But atleast that would make sense in the greater design of causality. There are nothing but stories to reinforce such a concept though.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:21 AM
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By the rites of the Night Sun (Sun occulted by the Earth), the Invisible Sun (Sun occulted by itself), and/or the Black Sun proper (Sun occulted by the Moon), illuminate. Thus, with access to the acausal perspectives, change yourself and the world Directly.


[edit on 15-1-2009 by illuminatitrickster]

[edit on 15-1-2009 by illuminatitrickster]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 04:49 AM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 



The emotion that came along with this paragraph lead me to belive that you mocked the idea of handicapped not having souls because they couldnt understand.

Without the concept of a soul... if you cant understand the entire design of teh world around you then you cant be enlightened.

I would hope for an afterlife...


Quite recently I had a very vivid dream. It involved 5 or 6 able bodied people and one man in a wheel chair playing basketball. The able bodied people kept getting tired and having to be helped off the court, but the man in the wheel chair was the best and fastest player. He scored all the points and to me he shined the brightest. His spiritual aura and energy was very strong and at one point he looked directly at me and he had the most piercing eyes of blue Ive ever seen. His eyes spoke to me they said "look at me, learn from me"

This dream was a lesson, it said to me that it doesnt matter how well a persons body works, this bears no relation to how enlightened and spiritual a person is. Often the brightest souls are in bodies that are less able. The body is a shell it is not the body that becomes enlightened, it is the spirit within it.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
The emotion that came along with this paragraph lead me to belive that you mocked the idea of handicapped not having souls because they couldnt understand.

Without the concept of a soul... if you cant understand the entire design of teh world around you then you cant be enlightened.


Of course enlightenment has nothing to do with intellect, or the ability to understand concepts. Not only are there various humans that lack the ability to understand complex theories, what about all of the other species?

I personally am quite sure many non-humans animals, and plants etc... are just as capable of enlightement as humans (possibly moreso) and the ability to read texts, or understand google videos has nothing to do with it.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf

The emotion that came along with this paragraph lead me to belive that you mocked the idea of handicapped not having souls because they couldnt understand.


Nope. In this case your reaction is your own, not really related to my intent or question.

I genuinely wanted to know if someones understanding of a specific vision were the important part, or if the understanding was secondary to living a certain way. It seem horribly unfair to me, when some say that "you have to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour or you go to hell..." or "You must see certain images..." or "you must have a certain understanding..." We all know, or should be able to ascertain, that there are some who will never do this through absolutely not fault of their own.

Someone blind from birth will likely never visualize an eye, or a pyramid, or much of anything in meditation. Someone born in remote areas of the world may never hear of Jesus, much less accept him. Some people have mental handicaps that would prevent their understanding of things like fractals or causality.

Humans may be unfair, unjust, but I dont expect that of a God or Divine force. Gravity, for instance, affects us all. Not some select few. We all die, not only some. We all get old. etc. Therefore I always wonder at spiritual teachings that have at their core an inherent injustice. (Or apparent injustice, sometimes there is an explanation, which is why I asked you)

In your case, I am just trying to understand the drive behind your feeling that this understanding is imperative to communicate. To see if in your view the understanding itself is a crucial part of the formula to your "heaven" or positive outcome.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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If you were enlightened you would probably know how to spell. You're not and you can't.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by Mr Green
 


First, Mr Green, I have gone through all these 'discussed' experiences, many years ago and currently! I raised the Full Nuclear Fire 35 yrs. ago. It is well beyond words: I do not doubt you, for I can see by your spoken description the analogies that are real. Same here.

Now, you have these experiences, and you begin the Inner Journey. Let me assure you, ALL is Mind.
[edit on 13-1-2009 by SS,Naga]


I take it your refering to the kundalini when you say you rose the full Fire.

Do you think this is an essential part of becoming enlightened due to the nature of what it is? Or do you think its a bit like say astral projection, yes its a good tool but not essential.

I really cant see how the kundalini is mind? You say ALL of this is from the mind, but how can such an awakening of immense power, energy and heat be from the mind??? Surely your unlocking your connection to the universal life force energy.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Green

I really cant see how the kundalini is mind? You say ALL of this is from the mind, but how can such an awakening of immense power, energy and heat be from the mind??? Surely your unlocking your connection to the universal life force energy.



I have been reading his answers as well, trying to get a handle on what precisely he/she is claiming. I think perhaps some of it is terminology. I have come to the conclusion that there is the very real possibility what he/she is calling "mind" is very different from the way I am using the term, for instance.

If I take what they are saying in context, the way this person is using the word "Mind" seems more like the way I would use the word "Consciousness Itself." I use the word "mind" to describe the workings of the physical brain, intellectualization, etc. I separate awareness or consciouness from "thinking." It appears this person is using "lower ego" the way I use "ego" and that there is an assumption that there is a "higher ego" where I would say consciousness itself is incapable of egoism at all.

Terminology can really muck things up. I have more than once seen two people arguing the exact same point with one another in a very heated way, each assuming the other to be the devil, simply because they were each using differing terms for the same concept. Perhaps the author could clarify at some point.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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I am a Near Death Survivor, which is a misnomer as I died and then returned. Anywho. Will in that place you refer to as death, I stood in a presence. I did not feel love or bliss, I was it itself and yet I sensed individualism without seperation.
I came back "knowing" that death is the wrong door.
Jesus, (not the guy the Roman church created to control the teaching) who came to demonstrate to us our true reality, split the atoms of his being and transformed his body into light.
That is the door we are or should be aiming for.
He told us what he did we can do. This is true, what any one person can do or achieve, any being can also.

yes we can achieve it and retain it, we start by removing every single thread of illusion from us.

One has done it, so all can achieve it.



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by spiritwomyn
Will in that place you refer to as death, I stood in a presence. I did not feel love or bliss, I was it itself and yet I sensed individualism without seperation.



Very good job at describing it. Non-dualism (individualism without separation) is very difficult to describe. My own experience was similar, though I did not stand in its presence but was "in" it. (nor did my physical body die, the death occurred in a dream) Although when I was in it, (was it?) I was not really "me" anymore. Though that individuality (what I call "me" now) was contained in the larger along with every other, I did not identify with that one anymore than any other, and at the same time I did not identify with the whole any more than any of the parts. Bliss is not really an adequate description of the feeling of being "one/many" but it is about as close as I can find. It leans a little to close to "positive happiness" for my tastes, as the feeling was likewise on that was undifferentiated, but absolutely not unpleasant in any way.

Edit to add, I do not exactly follow your later interpretation involving Jesus. But, in truth that isnt that important to me. Upon "return" to individuality the mind, the intellect, tries like mad to make sense out of the experience. But, in my experience, the mind is incapable of "thinking" about it accurately. I cannot lose the experience, but even when my own mind is analyzing it I realize that mind is mucking it up a bit. It can come close, but it cant quite get it right.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 

You mean somebody has actually been reading my posts? Thank you!

Sneakily, I've been reading yours, too!

I will attempt to be 'kind enough' to address both your posts (later), but right now I want to comment on Illusionsaregrander's "terminology" example:

Over at the thread, "Exhibiting Signs of Alien Consciousness!?? Come on in..........", beginning about page 4 (www.abovetopsecret.com...), Super_Spark came on and accused me of possibly being pharaohmoan: we fought, and had seven of our posts removed (1 on another thread, same time!). Well, we were both a bit heated, and started noticing we thought alike. He posts telling me to email him about a 'funny joke,' so I did, asking him what was funny? He said, "We are." Shockingly, I love the guy's discernment and awareness, very similar to mine. Yet, due to language, we battled like cats n dogs.

I suspect this goes on quite regularly, we just happened to get through to the other side of it, and noticed!

Yes, Mr.Green and Illusionsaregrander, I use the term Mind as "Universal Mind," because All Is Mind, but I have posted on this, and it must resolve Itself for some, and not for others. I happen to know that your entire physical body is "Mind." Taste death, and there goes 90% of your Mind Force: this is why the required work (dare I say it?) of "ascension" or achievement must be done during the incarnational experience: die, and it has past you by: getting into the flesh is not as easy as folks presume.

May I ask you both to Analyze this?
MIND:
Excretum - - - - - - - - - - - Residuum / Effluvium - - - - - Emanation
Body (matter/animal!) - - - - - -Mind or Soul - - - - - Spirit (Pure Energy)

Now, please read Walter Russell's posted statement regarding Mind, in light of this information: analyze the words, the Order: Notice the Soul or Mind in the center (above).

I am not trying to convert you: I was shown this! How could I actually convey this to someone who hasn't seen the embodiment of The WORD?
Yes, shockingly, The WORD has Both Presence (Intelligence) & Being (Form!). Don't believe it? Well, some already know this Truth, and do not care to discuss it. Think of all the Brilliance exhibited by our Awareness of Beingness!

By the way, the WORD is activated, made Alive (birthed into sentience) by the Intrinsic Intelligence Within, called The Brilliance (Clear Light), which is also known as Alpha & Omega, the Two Aspects of the One Perfect Form, The WORD. Once this perfect form was perceived/discovered, the Brilliance recognized Itself and was enabled to induce Intitial Impetus.

Now, if I have gone to far, forgive me: I can link you, quote, or deepen this meaning, but do not ask to resolve and verify this for you. Take it as merely a hint. I, too, thought I had received such an Incredible Vision of this Knowing (from my avatar namesake), and was deeply shocked when I started noticing it's actually All Over! People here on ATS have posted in reference to this Initial Impetus on many threads. OK, I'm growing up, and realizing it: It's not such a secret after all. Some very few know, the rest haven't delved deep enough yet. Some are outright wrong. But the knowledge is there. I have chosen to describe this as Prime Creatoress, the Original Initial Impetus (first movement ever!). And this achievement, to this very moment, takes my breath away, because I have an Awareness of just how impossible such a thing was...The First Birth, and It Birthed Itself from Nothing! (Ok, gotta go! It's that EverReal "Nothing" quandary again!). And just to shock even further, I Know what 'NOTHING' looks like! What it actually IS, I am still learning!

I'll try to use more commonly accepted terms next time (promise!).
Thanks for reading.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by SS,Naga]



posted on Jan, 15 2009 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by Mr Green


I have been reading his answers as well, trying to get a handle on what precisely he/she is claiming. I think perhaps some of it is terminology. I have come to the conclusion that there is the very real possibility what he/she is calling "mind" is very different from the way I am using the term, for instance.

If I take what they are saying in context, the way this person is using the word "Mind" seems more like the way I would use the word "Consciousness Itself." I use the word "mind" to describe the workings of the physical brain, intellectualization, etc. I separate awareness or consciouness from "thinking." It appears this person is using "lower ego" the way I use "ego" and that there is an assumption that there is a "higher ego" where I would say consciousness itself is incapable of egoism at all.

Terminology can really muck things up. Perhaps the author could clarify at some point.



REPLY

Yes no matter how hard Ive tryed to think we could be mind, I just cant see it. I too see the mind as the workings behind our brain. A creation to help us get through the physical part of life. However its a creation thats taken over, its become more than it was ever intended to be, its become an entity within in its own right.

I see us as pure consciousness. Ive had OBEs and felt I was just pure energy, I had no form and my awarness was complete, I had no mind chattering away in the background, I just simple was, I also felt that although I was still me I was part of some thing too. I also agree that as absolute pure consciousness we can have no ego.

Maybe we are all speaking of the same thing with different terms, but he was very specific on the point that God is light and light is mind.

Ive experienced the kundalini, it felt very strong but not sure if it was nuclear (SS, Naga description of it), I think if it had been a few degrees higher Id have burnt up so maybe I have felt its full force I dont know. I really need to study it more, but its one of those things that although people describe it, ones experience may be nothing like anothers. Anyway, what I felt was as if I was conducting some sort of life energy, I cant imagine something so strong came from within me, so I struggle to see how this came from my mind.

Since Ive become more aware of my minds link to ego, I see just how ego trys to control us, manipulate us, take us away from our true self. For me my mind is not me, its not the real me.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by Mr Green]



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