[UK] How do we seriously attack knife crime?

reply to post by infolurker


Very good points and I agree wholeheartedly. Criminals by definition don't follow the laws. Banning everything just results in punishing the innocent. You want to combat the knife crime? Get your gun rights back. Hell, tasers would probably do wonders. It's all about the force multipliers.

reply to post by redled


with guns

not a 1 liner

Originally posted by Europe
reply to post by redled

 

with guns

not a 1 liner

We don't want a violence escalated. In one line:

Make them realise that the state is more violent but use time and the threat of rather than blood.

Threats..... LOL

Don't step over this line.... oops

Well, Don't step over this other line.... ooops

Well, well.. please don't step over this line... we will leave our sheds unlocked... please?

Criminals understand action... they are 10x more afraid and worried of actually "failing" during the crime than getting away with it and knowing that the police will solve less than 5% of the crime in a year (pretty good chance of success, the odds are with you, why stop?)

reply to post by TheSilentProtagonist
I agree with everything you say apart from 'nothing will alleviate knife crime.' I work with some of these young people. They tend to come up from broken families (no dads) and be 3rd generation unemployed. They hang out with people in the same position. Drink, drugs and petty crime. Like in the US (gang territory and blocks) they can be territorial about their postcode (zipcode). The welfare state might provide the material things eg. Xbox 360, brand clothing>adidas/reebok/nike. Their family lives are chaos. More often than not they drop out of mainstream education in the early teens. They don't have the social skills, education or a belief that it takes effort and work to achieve in this life.

Individually, the ones I work with are pretty decent people. Assaults on me and other employees are few and usually low-level. Socially, they are a whole different matter. In gangs they are unable to back down. If someone looks at them 'in the wrong way' it leads to violence. They assume that everyone else is carrying, so they carry. If I lived their lives, I'd probably do the same thing.

How to attack knife crime? First thing is to accept it's nowhere near as bad as the mainstream media (mainly newspapers) make it out. Last year they were creating panic about immigration and especially the Polish. This year, knife crime. A**holes. I think we need to break up the culture of the welfare poor. Up to 4 generations without having a job? That's taking the p***. There's no responsibility for their actions. No job? The State will support you. Commit a crime? The Police are powerless. Police have to spend more time filling the forms than being out on the street. Criminal Prosecution Service is politically bound to keep people out of prison. No punishment, no incentive, no responsibility for actions. Concrete deterents and realistic incentives.

Getting to 18 and being uneducated and unskilled just makes problems for them and the area they come from. Give them a kid they don't know how to raise and you can work out what comes next. I wish the as*hole politicians would ask the people that live this life and deal with it instead of getting their information from the newspapers. Police, teachers, Youth Offender Teams and the poor ba**ards that can't leave their homes at night. Every year the ones I work with hit 17 and they're unemployed, unskilled and have kids to feed.

Well if the majority of knife crime is perpetrated by underage "youths" then hold the people that are responsible for those youths accountable too!

If the parents have raised and are supporting an unruly, weapon yeilding minor in their home, and they don't take ANY interest in what their offspring is doing, punish the parents too! The parents are a HUGE part of the problem!

reply to post by Kandinsky


If the knife carrying kid's parents are responsible for them and also on state benefits, could these benefits not be stopped completely for say a month if their kid is convicted of carrying a knife ? I think this would be a deterrent if the parents thought that they would loose their booze and cigs money.

reply to post by big gee
Maybe you're right, Big Gee. It's such a bad mess, but something could do with being done and smartish. It seems logical that if you grow up surrounded by people that have never had a job, but have enough for XBoxes, HDTVs and booze, you do the same. The values are different. Not so long ago, it was considered 'soft' to kick a guy when he's down. There was respect for a one on one 'straightener.' Now you get the guy down and you and your mates stamp on him until he can't fight back. Natural extension of this is the knife. If you aren't sure that you can win a fight, out comes the knife. Once it's out, you can't put it back. You'd lose face. It's a pathetic form of respect, but it's all the respect some of these kids know. It's as close to fear as anything else.

Me and anyone else connected to this world see the welfare support as being the first hurdle towards getting these kids a better life. A copper (Nightjack blog) says welfare was created as a safety net, but now it's a fishing net I think it's coming, more checks and balances. Some women keep having kids so they won't have to get a job, God knows what anyone can do to stop that. I'd cap the money on child 2, but it looks pretty harsh! Things gotta change.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Some women keep having kids so they won't have to get a job, God knows what anyone can do to stop that. I'd cap the money on child 2, but it looks pretty harsh! Things gotta change.

You can't cap the money because then theoretically the innocent kids would suffer as a result.

What they CAN do is simply offer the mothers a large chunk of change to get her tubes tied. THAT would put a stop to it, because they WOULD do it (or their useless boyfriends would talk them into doing it so he could spend their $$). Course some would complain about that idea too!

[edit on 30-12-2008 by Sonya610]

In England it is completely legal to carry a knife with a non-locking blade of under three inches (7.5cm) in length, without justification. A locking blade, or a blade over three inches, can only be carried with very good reason.

Ban knives completely and criminals will turn to the next thing available - a broken bottle for example. Remember, a sharpened pencil can do as much harm as a knife and I cannot see stationary being banned in the near future.

Where do we draw the line?

reply to post by Kandinsky


I agree absolutley . That was everything i was trying to say. Indeed i was probably a bit sensationalist and cynical saying "nothing will ever alleviate knife crime". That was kind of meaning the peeing int the wind ideas that the establishment has sometimes. Your quite right in that the media way over amplify what really going on, and distort what it is that actually drives these kids to do it.
As you said, were looking at the dark side of the welfare state here.
wether we shift this problem or not will depend on wether society changes, not the individuals

1.Allow people to defend themselves without fear of being punished themselves.

2.Hold parents responsible for their kid's actions ( if living together ).

3.Bring back a community feeling with community beat Bobbies.

4.Start treating our children with the respect they deserve, not what they think they deserve.

5.We, as a society, starting setting bloody good standards and examples that kids can look up to.

6. Vote in some no-nonsense straight talking politicians that didn't pass through Eton etc ( Yeah, in our dreams )

7. Love one another.

Forget banning weapons, that will never work. I think that hands should be banned.

All UK residents should have to get their arms and hands amputated so that they cannot pick up a weapon. Then crime will end!!

I'll start with the fact that kids have carried knives for many years,not just the past 10-20 years.I speak of in the UK but Im sure it may have been the same the world over.

Im a year away from 40 years old and I remember many kids carried knives when I was a kid,as did my father and grandfather.
It was a tool for many things.Whittling was a favourite.
But not even at the bottom of the list for its uses was it thought of for stabbing anyone.

The way in how society is now IMO is the cause of the knife problem.
Mainly bad parenting not knowing or caring what their kids are doing.
Also I think (Though I am only just coming to this view) the influences of TV,movies and games are a cause for the distinct lack of respect of another humans life.

What has happened to good old blighty?

[edit on 30/12/08 by gallifreyan medic]

[edit on 30/12/08 by gallifreyan medic]

I have called for mandatory sentences for quite a long time, however i have to ask one thing of the conservatives. Should i really be imprisoned for carrying a swiss army knife? I mean seriously, no one will mug you with such a thing and in my life it's been useful quite a few times.

Combat knifes, kitchen knifes or other such implements if found upon someones person should lead to a mandatory minimum sentence.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
The values are different. Not so long ago, it was considered 'soft' to kick a guy when he's down. There was respect for a one on one 'straightener.' Now you get the guy down and you and your mates stamp on him until he can't fight back. Natural extension of this is the knife. If you aren't sure that you can win a fight, out comes the knife. Once it's out, you can't put it back. You'd lose face. It's a pathetic form of respect, but it's all the respect some of these kids know. It's as close to fear as anything else.

I cannot tell you how much i agree with this statement. I have spent half my life learning to defend myself from various different arts. The arts i learnt were nasty and i was always told to make sure someone stays down if they're a threat. However once they're down i feel no desire to kick them a bit more.

These kids think they're "hard" and yet if they're on their own they wouldn't dare say anything to you. They're only tough when they have 3 mates with them or a knife in their hand and it absolutely annoys the hell out of me. Maybe it sounds old fashioned to hope for a fair fight, that being one on one.

As for respect, well these kids don't know what respect is. Whilst respect used to mean being a decent person now it has reverted back to the old animalistic form where people are supposed to be afraid of you, and if they're not, well they need a kicking apparently.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Me and anyone else connected to this world see the welfare support as being the first hurdle towards getting these kids a better life. A copper (Nightjack blog) says welfare was created as a safety net, but now it's a fishing net

I think it's coming, more checks and balances. Some women keep having kids so they won't have to get a job, God knows what anyone can do to stop that. I'd cap the money on child 2, but it looks pretty harsh! Things gotta change.

YES! Cap the money after 2 children, absolutely! Furthermore don't give them other priorities like the best council homes and such.

Originally posted by Sonya610
Ban knives. We all know it is NOT the fault of the people that stab other people with the knives, it is number of knives, and the availability of knives in the U.K. that is causing this problem. Simply ban knives and go with the spork.

Just like the U.S. and guns. Get rid of any potential weapons and the problem will disappear.

What about kitchen knives? These are becoming the majority used in crimes, they are easy to get a hold of, cheap and disposable. Sorry but banning combat knives means kids would just use more kitchen knives.

Originally posted by JH80
In England it is completely legal to carry a knife with a non-locking blade of under three inches (7.5cm) in length, without justification. A locking blade, or a blade over three inches, can only be carried with very good reason.

Originally posted by Teknikal
As an example to be legal you have to carry one under a 3 inch blade which is acceptable enough but it is also illegal to carry any with a locking blade that's the part I find stupid as in my eyes the locking blade is merely to stop you hacking your own fingers off not to mention almost all pocket knives sold have a lock by default.

Not quite. I used to carry a swiss army knife, the one with all the little attachments like screwdrivers, scissors etc. It was really very useful. Anyway one day i got stopped by some police and searched, i obliged and they found the knife. I quoted the law to them and they said "That only aplies if you havea reason for carrying the knife". It took half an hour of calmly talking with them to show i'm no threat, had no intention of hurting anyone and promising not to carry it anymore.

I havn't carried it since. The law is now murky in regards to carrying a knife. You might not go to prison but there is a good chance you'll be taken to a police station, fingerprinted, have you DNA taken and basically have a large problem in your life for a while.

Since the new law came into effect you do need a good reason to carry any knife and it is up to the police officers discretion whether to arrest you or not. It really annoys me because there have been times when i've needed my little swiss army knife and it hasn't been there anymore.

[edit on 30-12-2008 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by redled


We have had some serious knife crime problems here in Northern California USA...here are some of the things we have done too drastically cut back on the assaults with them.
No knives longer than the palm of the hand. (the blade length only.)
No top seraded knives unless you have a hunting license
No "buck" type knives to be strapped to belts around town even if you are a hunter. ( They are really hunting knives they dont fold shut and have a huge blade and handle)
NO KNIVES AT ALL AT ANY PUBLIC FUNCTIONS
NO KNIVES AT ALL AT MOVIE THEATERS OR PLACES CHILDREN WOULD CONGREGATE ETC
NO ONE UNDER 18 CAN CARRY A KNIFE OF ANY KIND IN TOWN
So far the few I have listed have put a serious dent in the crimes. People just need to use their heads and not bring things like that to a fair full of kids etc. I myself have hunted in the past with my hub and we have those huge knives, but we arent going to walk around town with them strapped on our belts. There is no need for it at that time.
Here we got a group together of both public and police to hammer out the proper ways a person could be allowed to carry a knife and the places they should not be allowed at all. Mabe you should see if you could get together a group of people get some ideas on paper and have a meeeting with the head of your police and his men. Dont get me wrong there is uses for some of the knives made today but most are for just hurting people..like switch blades! (we ban those straight out , was only punk kids with them anyway ) I am not sure how the setting would be in a city type area as we live in more of a suburban area surrounded with farms and winery complexes. ( you work on a ranch you carry a knife and a handy tool at all times)
Might be something to look inot if it has gotten out of hand. Hope this helps.

rofl, this thread....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH......

Kitchen Knives!!! Ban them! cut your food with a spoon!, lol. What a bunch of neutered sycophants england has become.

Don't Laugh to hard.... These pie holes want to do this to us in the USA as well. Not today at least. I just don't understand how they were able to "convince" the public at large that being a defenseless victim is a "good idea".

[edit on 30-12-2008 by infolurker]

Good to know roughly 36,000 years since the first metal tools the British Govt thinks it can put a stop to knives... bright idea sure they will have great success with this one.

Funny and retarded thing about this is

If you really want to kill someone using a knife is moronic anyway... so is a gun...

Because modern forensics and city camera systems are both excellent.

People killing people with knives are just dumb, your going to get blood all over the place... particularly in regards to home defense they are a waste because they can see even the tiniest amount of blood anywhere

so i don't even worry about non use of guns and my home defense, because if someone breaks in, they are getting it with a good Aluminum Bat so I can drag em off and leave as little evidence as possible they were ever there

And if sit X happens lol

Trust me...w ait 30 minutes before going out your door,... there will be both guns and knives laying all over for you to pick up if you wish to join the festivities...

London had the right idea... so does NY Camera it all up, leave the basic crimes alone and if anyone is retarded enough to commit a heinous crime like murder or knife assault you have them on tape...

and that's the best your ever going to do...

Because... lol take my knife i'll start carrying a Brick... how about a Broom stick I'll take a good strong broom stick over a butcher knife in a fight vs anyone because you'll never get near me...

so this is just mental... take my guns, my knives... whatever ... if I want to kill someone a roll of fishing line tied to a pair of handles will do just fine... and not waste a good knife when I have to dump it...

It's just so stupid...

Maybe they should take my hands so i can't snap a guys neck too lol