Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?

Originally posted by Hanslune
Best places to look for lost civilizations? Harte?

The Library at Alexandria (Virginia.)

Look under the author Edgar Rice Burroughs.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


is that the high school math teacher or the self proclaimed failed atlantologist talking?

reply to post by Harte


Well yes, not to forget Robert E Howard and a host of lesser being too.

reply to post by Parta


wiki isn't a reliable source, it's just a big blog/forum that poses as a source. You would have to find a source that has a degree of reputation that qualifies your claims about the man. You could just be quoting yourself.

reply to post by poet1b


right. keep on being vague. can you not be specific? is that beyond your ability or does it not suit your purpose?






[edit on 7-1-2009 by Parta]

reply to post by Parta


How much more specific can I be? I am not asking you some esoteric question.

Let's try this again.

Do you have any legitimate links ( Not Wiki or some blog ) that back up your claims about prince eugene of savoy?

Specifically, what legitimate claims do you have that Prince Eugene of Savoy was

a quasi religious [was supposed to be a cardinal/pope] military genius from a disgraced family who saved the western world from Islam and stopped all papal persecutions of protestants. he never married [but loved the ladies] and became the richest man in Christendom despite spending as lavishly as the Holy Roman Emperor. he claimed as one of his greatest feats the draining of an ancient sea and the re-peopling of same. at the beginning of that process he stopped writing in his journal forever and began buying literally every text on earth he could concerning ancient geography, natural history and mythology [his books form the core of a national library]. he named the portals of his city palace Antenor, Aeneas and Hercules plus had a famous statue of Atlas in his foyer. i'm pretty sure he knew he found troy [ahhiyawa] and therefore would have known atlantis was there too. he did pave it over [by accident or design] but some things are just too big to hide forever.

Obviously the problem isn't me or Hans, its you, Parta.

I am only asking because it sounds pretty interesting, and I was thinking that you might have something intelligent to add. Now, I am starting to wish I hadn't bothered.

Anyone ever read the Mabinogion? These are tales of Welsh mythology, and they are probably the most complex stories of mythology I have read. These are where the tales of Mag, and Magog come from. Mathony creates what sounds like a an incubator to bring his child from the stage of a fetus to an infant. These ancients were supposed to be Wizards, who could perform magical feats. The are the negative blood types, making them unique among all humans.

Certainly as Catholicism took over Europe, if you did not convert, you were killed brutally. This would cause a group to go underground.

reply to post by poet1b


i must say you guys sure know your stuff. your access to information is truly eye opening. the level of commitment you all have to learning is admirable.

remember that in a "i'm the biggest maroon" competition like you all have going, only one of you can be most obtuse. you came up with a psychosocial barrier so i'd have to say you are loosing.

reply to post by Parta




Well kid, as the saying goes, you had better write it all down while you still know it all.

Sounds like someone sold you a bill of goods in wiki. Obviously you can't find any other reference. That is all right, we all live and learn. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

reply to post by poet1b


but really... how much intellect does it take to slap down a paragraph of 12 points and say prove this? really now. if you actually wanted to learn and not just be a troll, then you would say i don't believe this point and that point etc. i'm sure there are 5 or 6 you don't disagree with and only a certain type of person would bother someone with those.

reply to post by poet1b


It is sometimes better to not feed the trolls.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by poet1b

 

It is sometimes better to not feed the trolls.

i didn't think he could let someone challenge his title without even a whimper.

the true authority on a subject is the one that gets there first, not the tourist like you hansy boy.

you still haven't outlined what the empire had to look like in your opinion. i see a similar method to the way you two operate. make a stupid general statement and ignore like a child any statement that demonstrates how stupid it was. hans worships an uncle festerian math teacher and count chocula can't find a way to get back the maroon points he lost by accident. tooo funny.

reply to post by Parta

you still haven't outlined what the empire had to look like in your opinion.

Ah, at last in your arrogance you have managed to stumble across a decent question.

First of all, it wouldn't be an empire. Empires have emperors, who need large structures about them to maintain power. The ancient Europeans were not empire builders until Catholicism took hold with the divine rights of kings ideology.

Primarily they would be agricultural based, no big cities. Maybe they travel by hot air balloons moved by sails, so they didn't need so many roads. They would be isolated, like Britain, or Chile, or Morocco, with a climate that forced them to make adaptions.

Ancient Rome, the largest city in the world during its time, population probably averaged around half a million, maybe as high as a million at its peak.

www.highbeam.com...

Ancient Athens at around 250 thousand.

www.bbc.co.uk...

So, to guess the size of such a civilization would have to consider the structure, and I would say, that being they have remained hidden, if they existed, they would not have built large cities, so on average numerous villages of one thousand to twenty thousand people, maybe the largest city upwards toward fifty thousand.

Then you would have to consider geographic area and size. They might have spread out over a very large area at the peak of their civilization, had they developed far superior technology. Their technological prowess would have eliminated the need for big walls and cities, as they could easily keep out any other groups of human attempting to invade their territory.

If they had learned how to work copper, and learned about magnetism, they might have accidentally stumbled across electricity. Cut a long straight narrow trench in a very smooth stone, and making copper wire would not have been all that difficult. Once electric motors had been discovered, the sky is the limit. Throw in windmill generation, and you are off into a modern era.

Without a constant fight for empirical control, there wouldn't have been a need for huge investments in weapons and fortification. A high standard of living would have lead to a lower, more reasonable birth rate.

reply to post by Parta

you still haven't outlined what the empire had to look like in your opinion.

Ah, at last in your arrogance you have managed to stumble across a decent question.

First of all, it wouldn't be an empire. Empires have emperors, who need large structures about them to maintain power. The ancient Europeans were not empire builders until Catholicism took hold with the divine rights of kings ideology.

Primarily they would be agricultural based, no big cities. Maybe they travel by hot air balloons moved by sails, so they didn't need so many roads. They would be isolated, like Britain, or Chile, or Morocco, with a climate that forced them to make adaptions.

Ancient Rome, the largest city in the world during its time, population probably averaged around half a million, maybe as high as a million at its peak.

www.highbeam.com...

Ancient Athens at around 250 thousand.

www.bbc.co.uk...

So, to guess the size of such a civilization would have to consider the structure, and I would say, that being they have remained hidden, if they existed, they would not have built large cities, so on average numerous villages of one thousand to twenty thousand people, maybe the largest city upwards toward fifty thousand.

Then you would have to consider geographic area and size. They might have spread out over a very large area at the peak of their civilization, had they developed far superior technology. Their technological prowess would have eliminated the need for big walls and cities, as they could easily keep out any other groups of human attempting to invade their territory.

If they had learned how to work copper, and learned about magnetism, they might have accidentally stumbled across electricity. Cut a long straight narrow trench in a very smooth stone, and making copper wire would not have been all that difficult. Once electric motors had been discovered, the sky is the limit. Throw in windmill generation, and you are off into a modern era.

Without a constant fight for empirical control, there wouldn't have been a need for huge investments in weapons and fortification. A high standard of living would have lead to a lower, more reasonable birth rate.

reply to post by Hanslune

The farther you go back the easier it is to miss. One of my favorite speculation is what would have happened if a Dinosaur subspecies had evolved intelligence. Such a civilization- if it remains very small would be difficult to detect....but that is the wonder of speculation and fantasy.

Hanslune - This has always been one of my favorite speculations as well. In the science fiction book Evolution, by Stephen Baxter, one section deals explicitly with this scenario.

It details how a small group of dinosaurs advance in intelligence (not enough to be considered advanced by the standards of this thread, but still) enough to have a fairly complex communication system, emotions, tools, planning capabilities, etc. They never developed the need for anything too terribly sophisticated in the way of tools, fire, anything that would be left behind, so there was nothing left to be dug up in modern times.

If there was indeed anything resembling intelligent life on this planet before us, my money is on this type of scenario.

reply to post by CeltAngel


I would agree completely. it's also possible some other now-extinct creatures reached a level of intelligence but were killed off. Evolution and mother earth being rather blood thirsty in this regards.

Difficult but perhaps not impossible to detect. As more and more rock chippers dive into the planets rocks the better chance of finding something like this.

The best bet is stone tools, virtually indestructible - of course they would have to make them!

Fame and fortune awaits the man or woman who can find them.

If a tribe of people functioned as one with the planet. If they took only what they needed and restored what they took. If they did not bury their dead but cremated their bodies or made the long walk sacrificing their bodies to the elements and the other life forms on the planet. Would there be a trace of them left? I don’t know. I guess it is possible but location would play an important factor. Warmer more fecund areas would decrease the impact man would have on his world and leave less evidence to find of their existence.

reply to post by NightSkyeB4Dawn


They would be difficult to trace. One can look at the Bonobos and Chimps - there is very little archaeological or fossil evidence for them-yet we obviously know they exist. This is partly due to the environment where they live where bodies are eaten up very quickly.

Humans however use stone tools and those are virtually indestructible. If they could figure out a way to exist without them, they would be difficult to find.

All of the parameters ignore the known results of an advanced society (since we have only our own as a yardstick).

With increased technology, comes a bigger global footprint, more people, more global trade, etc., etc. History has shown this.

Therefore, to accept those parameters as criteria for an ancient, advanced civilization....one would have to completely disregard our own history....

While I do believe in Atlantis...(in the Bolivian Alti-Plano region)....I don't believe it was anymore advanced than stated in Plato's dialogue...

Originally posted by Gazrok
All of the parameters ignore the known results of an advanced society (since we have only our own as a yardstick).

With increased technology, comes a bigger global footprint, more people, more global trade, etc., etc. History has shown this.

Therefore, to accept those parameters as criteria for an ancient, advanced civilization....one would have to completely disregard our own history....

Good point Gazrok. Nice to see you.

The thread is ostensibly about an ancient advanced civilization after all.

And even if such a culture found a way to "be as one" with the Earth and leave no trace, yet remain advanced, they would still have had to get to that high-tech point in some way. Such advancements would certainly carry them through periods of pollution, roadbuilding, manufacturing, synthetic materials, etc. that would absolutely still be around today.

Unless they took the trouble to clean it all up and bury it in one remote area, or launch it into space.

Harte