Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?

reply to post by dooper

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Some good points there. I think a common feature in emerging societies is the secrecy of knowledge. In tribes and small villages knowledge was shared. As they grew in size and organization specialization became a feature. A craftsman would not share his skills with just anyone. The original cause for Masons to join together was to protect their knowledge. Apprentices had to prove their worth. The written word as a gateway to knowledge was never shared with the general populace. Furthermore, it was actively obscured and made occult. Until the printing press and the production of political tracts, reading was a secret kept by the Church and certain of the upper classes.

Naturally, when knowledge is kept secret from others, it becomes easily extinct when catastrophes happen. Most people in the First World will be almost unable to fend for themselves if disaster occurs.


[edit on 24-12-2008 by Kandinsky]

Hey Hanslune

I wonder if maybe you're giving the materials we use today too much credit. I'm not a scientist, not by a long shot, and nor do I study archeology as anything more than a passing hobby. However, one thing I remember from my Statics class while I was taking civil engineering was that the concrete used today has a set life span of roughly 100 years. After which point it begins to degrade and rather rapidly it will revert back to mortar mix and sand or gravel, maybe in as little as another 200 years (depending on its exposure to the elements). Asphalt similarly degrades over a relatively short period of time 25 years or so, longer depending on the mix and it's exposure. Even corrosion resistant metals would eventually revert to either their base elements or rust away, or possibly (if sufficiently protected from the elements) get buried under hundreds of tonnes of earth and stone. And all that would take place in less that 1000 years... but of course that's saying there is no one left to maintain them, but either way our civilization (the buildings and materials) would effectively be gone forever in a tenth of the time that Egypt, Babylon or Sumner have laid buried.

As for spoken language it is forever evolving, which means if there was a mass extinction tomorrow, the survivors could be speaking an entirely different language than us in less than a couple hundred years. If you want an example of this look no farther than the English language. We currently have words in our language that didn't exist 200 years ago, not too mention some of the words have changed their meaning. A good example of this is the word Gay 200 years ago, even as little as 50 years ago, meant happy now it means Homosexual.

Culture, that's something that would take quite sometime to get rid of, mostly because it would comfort people to have something of the 'old' world to hold onto. Even still a couple hundred years and most of the staples of our civilization would loose their meaning or be changed to meet different requirements.

Meh this is all really just a rant, and as I said I have no backing to these claims other than what I can remember from a class I took almost a decade ago now. Also sorry for semi hijacking your thread.

However on topic, I do have a question that maybe someone who has more knowledge in archeology might be able to answer, and hey it's even semi on topic. Is it possible that an advanced civilization could have been missed if only because another civilization rose up on its remains either destroying the previous ones 'foot print' or simply over writing it effectively hiding it from our notice?

Edit: Fixed a couple spelling mistakes.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by looneylupinsrevenge]

Hans,

You're assuming that in the event of a catastrophic event, there would be plenty of people left. Right now, without any outside source of food, how long could you feed yourself?

Every family member, every individual will be struggling, scrounging something to eat, and then clean water. Even in forests, game is not easy to come by.

You're going to need salt. Without a supply of salt, you will slowly wind down and die. You're going to need fat, as fat will not be supplied by rabbits, squirrels, or deer. Large animals have fat, such as bears and cattle and pigs. Dangerous in the wild to get fat. Lots of folks get killed or maimed.

There will be small groups of two-legged animals who will kill you for what you have, or simply to eliminate a food competitor.

As far as the artifacts, you speak of archaeology. There's only been development over the past 200 years.

10-12.000 years ago, geologists will tell you that the North American continent during a catastrophic event lost 150 species with a body weight exceeding 100 pounds. So your assumption that nothing happened 10-12,000 years ago is incorrect.

When I spoke of the time span, I postulated that if our timeline between catastrophic events were cut to even 90% of this last geological period, we'd have little to leave behind.

Your brick, concrete, glass, steel, etc., are very recent developments, and only began to show up in the last 2% of the last 10,000 years.

I stand by my assumptions.

[edit on 24-12-2008 by dooper]

I am probably the biggest proponent, for the N american catastrophe some 12k years ago, on this board.
I'm not going to get into it causin it will quickly go beyond the scope of this thread, but suffice it to say that in the interveneing time span there would not have been enough time to wipe away all the traces of a culture on par with ours.

Yes, I believe it could have escaped our notice so much so, that we dont even notice their presence amongst us today.

We dont remotely have all the facts, just the tools we know and were introduced into our milieu. For the majority, what science has to offer would seem out there and improbable...how much more so for those that guide the wise. - something to ponder.

Sure on a base level, this will sound absurd - but with an open mind, more possibilities are seen, and a larger picture begins to form...despite how shady it may appear at first, there is no reason to rush to a conclusion. (Keep searching for answers and let the pieces that dont fit rest, until you have more pieces which are similar.)

As I view humanity it would seem that we are actually devolving.
There is more to life than technological trinkets...what is at the heart and soul?
Give a monster a lazer gun doesnt make him more wise, nor does teaching it how to assemble it.

We must evolve at a core, internal level, if we are to go to the next step as a society - or risk annihilating each other completely.

Could this be what happened to the advanced societies of the past?
As Michio Kaku points out, there is a 50/50 chance we will or will not make it to the next stage. Intelligence alone is not enough, there has to be a level of maturity. And I will say from what I heard M. Kaku say about Mr. Teller, that he would have been a good example of an intelligent person who would have contributed to the downfall of a grand and ancient civilization. (His philosophical outlook towards life and technology seemed to be a little less than 'civilized'...but we all have a role we must play and fulfill, so Im not casting any judgement prematurely - just trying to give an example to ponder on.)

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by Hanslune

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The easiest way to hide something is to ensure that no one is looking for it.
My area of expertise is religion, myth and legends. Unseen beings and places are a given in these genres. ooparts, out of place artifacts are hard physical evidence from a place and time it could not have existed unless it had been brought there and/or created by someone other than the locals. The ancients had a better grasp of the supernatural than modern man, it was more immediate. The need to understand what things created that "bump in the night" was sometimes the difference between life and death. Darkness ruled half their lives and they had no electric lights. Torches, candles and oil lamps offered little light and produced flickering shadows that accentuated the darkness.

Hans: Yes a great deal would be lost, perhaps 99%, that still leaves hundreds of millions of tons of man made material surviving, depending on the climate and soil acidity and the amount of moisture (you want either a lot or none) a great deal with survive.

Depends on the type of cement. The oldest Roman cement is in fine shape even today, The Maginot line will be there for tens of thousands of years



Hans: A bit longer than that I believe, the Chinese can still read their ancient symbols although in some cases the meanings have varied from the original. Byrd probably has a better idea of how long a spoken language lasts.



Hans: True and point noted but survival in this sense of this thread is in an archaeological mode. Yes one of my distant relatives was named gaylord, a good name name in the 18th century, rather suckie today.



Hans: True but we’ve managed to figure out a parts of the earlier civilizations. Not everything certainly, but we have some idea of how they functioned and more importantly for this thread, we know they existed.

Meh this is all really just a rant, and as I said I have no backing to these claims other than what I can remember from a class I took almost a decade ago now. Also sorry for semi hijacking your thread.
Hans: Your points are mainly on subject and most welcome



Hans: Probably not unless the successor civilization could dig up and destroy every scrap of the other civilization. Possible but mindblowingly difficult, since they wouldn’t always know were all this stuff was. Carthage got a professional going over by the Romans. They set out to destroy it completely, they did so from their point of view but from an archaeogical point of view – it is easy to detect. If they maintained the technology but destroyed where it had come from then things would have the famous, sprung from 'nowhere' feel. That has not been detected, its been claimed for various cultures but tends to fall apart when examined.

Hans: Not really you’re changing the question in which I gave that answer too.

You asked,”Assuming around 10,000 years ago we had our last major catastrophic geological disaster, then you see that it took us until the past 150 years to reach any level of scientific and industrial achievement.”

Hans: I take this to mean some civilization ending event. No such event took place, no advanced civilization was destroyed. If you mean the possibility of the meteor strike in North America, then yes that occurred in some form but it isn’t considered a geological disaster. Nor, as far as we know, was any civilization was destroyed.



Hans: Not sure I get your reasoning here, we and our ancestors were here, that we can be certain about, what we can also determine at this time, based on the evidence we havd now is that no civilization (better than Catalhuyuk existed) certainly nothing approaching our modern level has been detected



Hans: Yes, and if a previous civilization had reached our levels of development we’d be able to detect their building and other technologies. Wooden Javelin from 400,000 years ago have survived and been recovered. I think we'd leave some stuff behind too.

I stand by my assumptions.

Hans: Chinese Gordon said that too, LOL

reply to post by debris765nju

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Who would have ensured this and what would they be hiding?

I'll wait a few more days and if there are no more contributions. I'll write up a summary and update my original message.

The assumption seems to be that every town, city, and civilization leaves behind things. That complete destruction is abnormal. That things can be found easily, and when you dig somewhere everything indicative is of the culture and technology level is found.

The assumption further seems to be that the advantages would be spread out throughout each society and culture.

I think that a quick look at most of human societies now and throughout history would show that an equal distrubution of goods, technology and education is far from consistent. More, that the assumption of essential equality would be closer to normative. Really, extreme caste systems seem far more stable and consistent throughout time. Particularly in a large endevours such as an advanced technology base might require.

I think that you aren't going to find advanced technological societies by looking at the water jugs of the serfs.

reply to post by Aeons

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You are correct, the most advanced items tend to be concentrated with the elites or specialists of any society, especially less advanced ones. With advanced societies the spread of technological advantages is more wide spread. In most poor countries today you can find pieces of plastic and refined metals and other indicators of a higher civilization.

One key point is, that if there was an "Atlantis" we might not find the materials of the elite but that we'd find the materials of the lesser working or lower classes. That is true, the odds would support that assumption.

The problem is that in our world no such unassociated serfs have been detected.

Its not just that we don't detect advanced civilizations, we also don't detect any unassociated cultures either.

I would question that assumption because it is based on how we are now.

However, there are far far far more of us on this planet today. The advantages are easier to spread around because the resources and labour are significant.

I think what I'm trying to say here is - We can make lots of cheap plastic. We can mine a ton of resources every minute. We can spread around these advantages due to increases in technology, labour, and innovations that allow it.

If getting the primary resources was much more difficult, transportation ardous, and those barriers had not be overcome then it if possible that the "elite" could have advantages but that the scarcity of resources and the technical knowledge to create those advantages may have not existed to perpetuate them. Or have been intentionally surpressed to increase power and authority.

Trickle down should not be assumed. Scarcity of primary resources, combined with ardous transportation issues, and lack of education and technical knowledge in any significant section of the labour population and a significantly smaller population in general.

If everything goes to # tomorrow - can you mine the resources for the metal in your zippers? And even if you could, can you make the machinery to create them? And if you could do that, do you even really know how your zipper works? I know that I probably couldn't do 90% of that and I am an educated technical kind of person living in a society with all the advantages spread around. I couldn't make a zipper. Much of the advantages we assume in a technical society are collaborations on a mass scale in every aspect of their creation.

Such things may have been hoarded merely because they were so challenging to create that there was no possibility to share them. Each advantage of knowledge and items precious, and unique.

reply to post by Aeons

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Noted Aeons, thanks for your input.

among other reasons..

humans hide treasure. if they find something they cannot move then they use the arts of misdirection and/or conquest to secure it

humans hide things to maintain status quo... religion or empire or family or position

humans hide things and they don’t even know they are
by focusing efforts on commercial exploitation adding to what mother nature has done
by creating laws which deny science the common tools they use to find things like flying in an airplane with a camera
by themselves and others fabricating psycho-social barriers

the reason why you hide a thing can change over time. you might start out hiding a treasure but that evolves into maintaining status quo which is then carried on by humans who don’t know what they are doing

can one man hide something such as Atlantis? it would be very difficult today but in the not too distant past any number of people have had the wealth, power and opportunity... what their reason might be or if they really knew they were doing who knows.









[edit on 2-1-2009 by Parta]

reply to post by Parta

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Hans: yes but do they hide habitation sites, pottery and fire pits? Er if Atlantis was destroyed who was around to hide it?



Hans: So who hid it?



Hans: Please give an example of a people hiding an ancient civilization and they are actually not aware that they are doing that.....................



Hans: So at some point in the past. Somebody found Atlantis, and for some reason decided to hide it......

Hans: Okay like who and when?

Ah Parta do you have any idea of the archaeological footprint of an ancient civilization?

[edit on 3/1/09 by Hanslune]

reply to post by Hanslune

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as far as i can tell you have no background in any topic related to this subject which apparently is atlantis in disguise. do you have any familiarity with geography, cultures, recent finds or anyone in the sciences associated with anything i just mentioned? the simplest facts seem to toss you over. those are the perils of sitting on a house of cards i guess.

mythology etc is full of tyrants [or not] allowng noone and nothing to leave their kingdoms. Its often an underworld type of place but a fabulously wealthy underworld.

maybe he and his were Mr IJ haplos… they seem to be missing but spawned Mr I and Mr J before they disappeared. Mr I is European so was Mr IJ a European too? And Mr J?

there was of course a wonderfully artistic culture making ceramics and weaving @ 28,000bc. The next example of each skill is at least when? 15ky later? Sounds like someone that was advanced disappeared. But really those folks were mammoth hunting mountainmen far removed from the nicer places where they probably liked to lived. places with large, delicious and less dangerous animals roaming never ending grassy plains with water bubbling from the ground both hot and cold. These wonderfully lush areas are now under many hundred meters of pelagos sediment in some cases.. right in the middle [well eastern] of europe.

now as to who could have hidden it... my personal fave is a quasi religious [was supposed to be a cardinal/pope] military genius from a disgraced family who saved the western world from Islam and stopped all papal persecutions of protestants. he never married [but loved the ladies] and became the richest man in Christendom despite spending as lavishly as the Holy Roman Emperor. he claimed as one of his greatest feats the draining of an ancient sea and the re-peopling of same. at the beginning of that process he stopped writing in his journal forever and began buying literally every text on earth he could concerning ancient geography, natural history and mythology [his books form the core of a national library]. he named the portals of his city palace Antenor, Aeneas and Hercules plus had a famous statue of Atlas in his foyer. i'm pretty sure he knew he found troy [ahhiyawa] and therefore would have known atlantis was there too. he did pave it over [by accident or design] but some things are just too big to hide forever.

So hiding a treasure [the phoenicians > greeks] then maintaining status quo [my man] followed by people that don’t know what they were doing [everyone since]. At least it isn’t the Vatican.

reply to post by Hanslune

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Haven't read through all of the thread, but had to comment. Those 750,000 year old ice cores aren't from southern Canada. Glaciers might have carved out the Great Lakes, and Yosemitie, where are those glaciers. That was a whole lot of water that was released. The tales of the flood are everywhere. Mel1962 has a pretty good concept. How long did it take for those glaciers to melt?

I agree that the statement that archeology refuses to think outside of the box was a tad too far, but clearly our current understanding of how quickly our environment here on Earth can change is extremely limited.

Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?

depands on your own opinon based on what you think you see and hear and what you question and undestand about civilazation within your own understanding of the world and the meaning of advanced civilazation.

an advance civilazation to me is a group of social beings or individuals or creaters who think and do things the same way and share what they see and understand and have a anwser to every question like god and religion to develop other peoples undersatndimg and influance others to share the same valuas and principals in order to understand the world they live in. advance civilization are well educated advanced civialtions do not escape our notice it just we dont see them in are every day life for example how do you kinow if there is a god or do we use god to function in society and understandin of the world or is there an alien powers or not. all humans are born into an advance civalation we all are born into social stratifiaction if we dont undersand the history of earth or aliens advancement of civilization then the way we think is that we are the advanced civilization like how society works and how the advanced civilization of how politics work and influances our own actvity and mind of the advanced civilization but it is all possibility we are the advanced civilization other wise know as the human race. within the univers or did human race destoryed an advanced civilization in order to become the advanced civilization on earth and therefoe may have been removed before any pens or papers or ways of record history? an advanced civilization take time to show and devlope for example you can not make a car without going through a producation line pocess without adding bit and bobs like the engine and the doors inorder to make an out come of a car product if there is an advanced civilization its best that it does escape or bring it to attention as some human will only try to destory the advanced civilization human or aliean. inorder to become the advanced civilization.