When you say "evidence is missing" I would like to point you to the following historical events:
The Long History of Book Burnings by political and religious zealots
The Library of Alexandria burned down
U.S. Library of Congress Burned
No Access to the Vatican Library
A History of Military, Political, Religious and Social Censorship
The Inquisition: Destruction of "alternative knowledge"
In this type of atmosphere...which continues to this day...we cant expect to have a clear picture of ancient events.
Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?, page 1
privacy
Topic started on 20-12-2008 @ 11:11 AM by Hanslune
In an earlier thread I posted this outline of reasons a previous civilization might be undetected.
The original post
It was part of Skyfloating's, Introduction to Atlantology thread, which was here
Skyfloating's Introduction to Atlantology thread
Could an advanced (with our present level of technology or higher) civilization have escaped our notice? Yes
Particularly if it fit into the following parameters
1. Much older than "10,000 BC" the farther you go back the less distinct and precise the geological and other data becomes.
2. A human or other settlement that was very small, not more than 10-20,000 people. A civilization footprint increases by leaps and bounds as the number of people in it increases. If you can keep it very small it is easier to miss it.
3. No traveling or trading, if they are isolated and don't seek contact they then leave fewer artifacts and traces. People who do travel and trade leave lots of traces.
4. Complete destruction. The farther you go back the less accurate is science's detection of events. If you go back far enough sites can be subducted and completely destroyed. Human habitations and artifacts are rather difficult to destroy completely, for example look at Thera, a great deal survived an enormous explosion.
5. The colony used unknown technologies that left no trace - but this doesn't explain the traces that would have been left BEFORE they developed that technology.
6. Unknown source, ie this colony came from some unknown source other than human evolution. This is possibility but at present no evidence supports it.
Summary for hiding from man's search. "Atlantis" or any other civilization would need to be; very small, isolated, suffer complete destruction and be much, much farther back in time than is presently speculated on.
Can anyone add more to this list or provide evidenced opinions of why the ones I've listed aren't valid.
Thanks for your input
The original post
It was part of Skyfloating's, Introduction to Atlantology thread, which was here
Skyfloating's Introduction to Atlantology thread
Could an advanced (with our present level of technology or higher) civilization have escaped our notice? Yes
Particularly if it fit into the following parameters
1. Much older than "10,000 BC" the farther you go back the less distinct and precise the geological and other data becomes.
2. A human or other settlement that was very small, not more than 10-20,000 people. A civilization footprint increases by leaps and bounds as the number of people in it increases. If you can keep it very small it is easier to miss it.
3. No traveling or trading, if they are isolated and don't seek contact they then leave fewer artifacts and traces. People who do travel and trade leave lots of traces.
4. Complete destruction. The farther you go back the less accurate is science's detection of events. If you go back far enough sites can be subducted and completely destroyed. Human habitations and artifacts are rather difficult to destroy completely, for example look at Thera, a great deal survived an enormous explosion.
5. The colony used unknown technologies that left no trace - but this doesn't explain the traces that would have been left BEFORE they developed that technology.
6. Unknown source, ie this colony came from some unknown source other than human evolution. This is possibility but at present no evidence supports it.
Summary for hiding from man's search. "Atlantis" or any other civilization would need to be; very small, isolated, suffer complete destruction and be much, much farther back in time than is presently speculated on.
Can anyone add more to this list or provide evidenced opinions of why the ones I've listed aren't valid.
Thanks for your input
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 11:56 AM by Hanslune
reply to post by Skyfloating
All though documentary data is useful in this context archaeological data would be more germane.
All though documentary data is useful in this context archaeological data would be more germane.
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 12:19 PM by Hanslune
reply to post by zlots331
Howdy Z331
Yes, this is the eco idea in a different light. Yeah I've come to think this might be possible too. A civilization with a zen/buddhist type/style of orientation that used a very low technology.
One problem thou, stone tools. Very difficult to operate a civilization without those but it might be possible to, if you were mainly vegetarian, to make due with less efficient bone and wooden implements.
Good point, I'll expand point #5 in relation to your comments
Howdy Z331
Yes, this is the eco idea in a different light. Yeah I've come to think this might be possible too. A civilization with a zen/buddhist type/style of orientation that used a very low technology.
One problem thou, stone tools. Very difficult to operate a civilization without those but it might be possible to, if you were mainly vegetarian, to make due with less efficient bone and wooden implements.
Good point, I'll expand point #5 in relation to your comments
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 12:48 PM by zlots331
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
You bring up another point that has been bandied about.
If a particular civilization is old enough, sea levels would have been drastically different. Most civilizations develop around water, for food, transportation, etc. Rising sea levels would not only submerge any traces but probably destroy any traces due to erosion or buried under sediments.
Climate changes that have resulted in huge deserts could also play a factor, burying any trace that might have existed.
Nature is a pretty powerful force to reckon with over time. There was an excellent show on Discovery (I think) lately that dealt with what the world would look like if man disappeared tomorrow. Entire new ecologies would immediately fill any gaps we left behind and traces of our highly technical society would completely disappear in an outstandingly short time. ( A few hundred thousand years if I remember correctly.)
Look at the fairly recent societies that have been uncovered in central America, completely covered by jungle, that you had to literally trip over to find. Even the Sphinx has to be continually dug out of the sand to prevent it from being buried.
Guess we'll never know. Too many factors in play to ever get a good handle on the dilemma.
You bring up another point that has been bandied about.
If a particular civilization is old enough, sea levels would have been drastically different. Most civilizations develop around water, for food, transportation, etc. Rising sea levels would not only submerge any traces but probably destroy any traces due to erosion or buried under sediments.
Climate changes that have resulted in huge deserts could also play a factor, burying any trace that might have existed.
Nature is a pretty powerful force to reckon with over time. There was an excellent show on Discovery (I think) lately that dealt with what the world would look like if man disappeared tomorrow. Entire new ecologies would immediately fill any gaps we left behind and traces of our highly technical society would completely disappear in an outstandingly short time. ( A few hundred thousand years if I remember correctly.)
Look at the fairly recent societies that have been uncovered in central America, completely covered by jungle, that you had to literally trip over to find. Even the Sphinx has to be continually dug out of the sand to prevent it from being buried.
Guess we'll never know. Too many factors in play to ever get a good handle on the dilemma.
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 01:32 PM by Hanslune
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
Howdy Zero
I see your point, current inaccessibility of the site(s), will add that. I can think of a number of areas on earth that have not been properly surveyed. Not to mention under the seas.
Howdy Mozzy
Yes, a non-human civilization far, far back in time would be very difficult to trace as they might not use the indicators we use to detect civilizations (habitation, burials, stone tools, land modification and pottery, etc)
Certainly not impossible, based on what we've seen of how humans act. I wouldn't put it past previous people. Kinda of a 'Red Nails' in overdrive? However the act of finding every scrape of another civilization would be a daunting task - destroying cities and wiping out the people yes, but digging up their stone tools from their developmental period? Hmmmm
Howdy Zero
I see your point, current inaccessibility of the site(s), will add that. I can think of a number of areas on earth that have not been properly surveyed. Not to mention under the seas.
Howdy Mozzy
aquatic or subterranean civilizations would be hard to find.
Yes, a non-human civilization far, far back in time would be very difficult to trace as they might not use the indicators we use to detect civilizations (habitation, burials, stone tools, land modification and pottery, etc)
the only other scenario i can think of is a deliberate attempt at two opposing factions to wipe one another from the face of the earth. this would lead back point of finding their "primitive" cultures before one destroyed the other though.
Certainly not impossible, based on what we've seen of how humans act. I wouldn't put it past previous people. Kinda of a 'Red Nails' in overdrive? However the act of finding every scrape of another civilization would be a daunting task - destroying cities and wiping out the people yes, but digging up their stone tools from their developmental period? Hmmmm
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 01:35 PM by Hanslune
reply to post by zlots331
Howdy Z311
You are partially correct about water. However the early civilizations grew up around inland rivers. Mainly for the irrigation water. Sea coasts were still fairly hostile then as the bulk of food came from domesticated crops which did well in river valley's and not near the seacoast were salt content tends to be high. Later as boats, nets and other technology grew man conquered the coastal seas.
It''l only take a few thousand years to completely survey and dig over ever square centimeter of the earth's surface - dispair not!
[edit on 20/12/08 by Hanslune]
Howdy Z311
You are partially correct about water. However the early civilizations grew up around inland rivers. Mainly for the irrigation water. Sea coasts were still fairly hostile then as the bulk of food came from domesticated crops which did well in river valley's and not near the seacoast were salt content tends to be high. Later as boats, nets and other technology grew man conquered the coastal seas.
It''l only take a few thousand years to completely survey and dig over ever square centimeter of the earth's surface - dispair not!
[edit on 20/12/08 by Hanslune]
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 02:17 PM by DangerDeath
reply to post by Hanslune
Easy, wherever there are no graves
There are some ancient civilizations, before Bronze age, which had sophisticated art and even alphabet, and did not have state. But then something happened and people started to build walls...
From then on history is only about that.
Spiritual civilizations are created by people who find ways not to be enslaved and who don't participate in existing economic and political system.
There are many individuals who are like this, but we can't classify them as "groups" because their connection and "form" is personal.
Spiritual communion is personal and it is not part of public culture or tradition. They are practically invisible in society since they have no social function.
You can only detect such civilization if you participate in it, and making compromises is very difficult.
I can find some examples, maybe Christian horizontal civilization, that is, before Saul organized them into church with vertical hierarchy and which since then became visible in history.
Perhaps some of druid communions could be counted as such, but there are no material artifacts. Their literacy was verbal and they devised mnemonic techniques, which don't leave archeological traces.
It may be possible to unveil such traditions from art or myths, but one should try not to apply some stereotypical ways of interpretation.
It is commonly assumed that rituals are part of some religion or cult, but what do we know of rituals if we never participated in them.
Rituals are a form of meditation and without such experience we will only be able to register what is apparent to eye and hardly the spiritual experience which is attained.
Take a look at tradition of Australian Aborigines. What do we really know of that? It is all secret because it involves personal experience and cannot be analyzed by empirical and formal means.
Aboriginal tradition goes god knows how many millenniums in the past, and if we are looking for some historical events, like wars or kings we may find none, so we conclude they don't have history, which is practically like they never really existed.
For spiritual tradition death is never considered as a no option. They found a way to negotiate and assimilate the experience of death. Let me remind you that fear and misunderstanding of death is the basic premise of slavery on which historical societies are based.
I think it is more than worth exploring, especially because we all seem to be stuck when asking question: what to do, how to oppose the violence of the system.
Easy, wherever there are no graves
There are some ancient civilizations, before Bronze age, which had sophisticated art and even alphabet, and did not have state. But then something happened and people started to build walls...
From then on history is only about that.
Spiritual civilizations are created by people who find ways not to be enslaved and who don't participate in existing economic and political system.
There are many individuals who are like this, but we can't classify them as "groups" because their connection and "form" is personal.
Spiritual communion is personal and it is not part of public culture or tradition. They are practically invisible in society since they have no social function.
You can only detect such civilization if you participate in it, and making compromises is very difficult.
I can find some examples, maybe Christian horizontal civilization, that is, before Saul organized them into church with vertical hierarchy and which since then became visible in history.
Perhaps some of druid communions could be counted as such, but there are no material artifacts. Their literacy was verbal and they devised mnemonic techniques, which don't leave archeological traces.
It may be possible to unveil such traditions from art or myths, but one should try not to apply some stereotypical ways of interpretation.
It is commonly assumed that rituals are part of some religion or cult, but what do we know of rituals if we never participated in them.
Rituals are a form of meditation and without such experience we will only be able to register what is apparent to eye and hardly the spiritual experience which is attained.
Take a look at tradition of Australian Aborigines. What do we really know of that? It is all secret because it involves personal experience and cannot be analyzed by empirical and formal means.
Aboriginal tradition goes god knows how many millenniums in the past, and if we are looking for some historical events, like wars or kings we may find none, so we conclude they don't have history, which is practically like they never really existed.
For spiritual tradition death is never considered as a no option. They found a way to negotiate and assimilate the experience of death. Let me remind you that fear and misunderstanding of death is the basic premise of slavery on which historical societies are based.
I think it is more than worth exploring, especially because we all seem to be stuck when asking question: what to do, how to oppose the violence of the system.
reply posted on 20-12-2008 @ 02:53 PM by infinite
I confess, this is a precarious subject and results in conceptual questions being asked by the student.
However, let's look at point 4 - Complete destruction. Consider this abstract from the ancient (6500 BC at the latest) Mahabharata:
Ancient Nuclear War?
The Indus valley is now the Thar desert, and the site of the radioactive ash was claimed to been found in the area. For arguments sake, let's assume an ancient civilization had nuclear weapons - but here's the question:
Could an ancient civilization have weaponry to destroy an entire empire? This, is a completely different scenario altogether.
However, let's look at point 4 - Complete destruction. Consider this abstract from the ancient (6500 BC at the latest) Mahabharata:
…a single projectile Charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame As bright as the thousand suns Rose in all its splendour… a perpendicular explosion with its billowing smoke clouds… …the cloud of smoke rising after its first explosion formed into expanding round circles like the opening of giant parasols… ..it was an unknown weapon, An iron thunderbolt, A gigantic messenger of death...
Ancient Nuclear War?
The Indus valley is now the Thar desert, and the site of the radioactive ash was claimed to been found in the area. For arguments sake, let's assume an ancient civilization had nuclear weapons - but here's the question:
Could an ancient civilization have weaponry to destroy an entire empire? This, is a completely different scenario altogether.
reply posted on 21-12-2008 @ 03:28 AM by Ex_MislTech
reply to post by Hanslune
The Sumerians are a likely candidate:
Sumer
A man who is often regarded as a quack has found some very
interesting things about them that need to be looked into regardless
of his quack status.
Zecharia Sitchin
There is no doubt the Sumerians diagramed the ENTIRE solar system
with correct scale to size and distance, and in their writings get the
colors of the outer planets correct.
Something we did not discover til we had satellite fly out past
the outer planets.
Too many things found in the ancient writings point to an advanced
civlization having passed the information to the Sumerians or they
went and got it themselves.
From the Sumerians writings the "gods" flew down from the heavens
and passed this knowledge to them.
All of this roughly 7,000 years ago.
Drawings of "Shem" aka rocketships are seen in more than one place.
It boggles the mind, and the veracity of the cuneiform and writings
are verified.
The Sumerians are a likely candidate:
Sumer
A man who is often regarded as a quack has found some very
interesting things about them that need to be looked into regardless
of his quack status.
Zecharia Sitchin
There is no doubt the Sumerians diagramed the ENTIRE solar system
with correct scale to size and distance, and in their writings get the
colors of the outer planets correct.
Something we did not discover til we had satellite fly out past
the outer planets.
Too many things found in the ancient writings point to an advanced
civlization having passed the information to the Sumerians or they
went and got it themselves.
From the Sumerians writings the "gods" flew down from the heavens
and passed this knowledge to them.
All of this roughly 7,000 years ago.
Drawings of "Shem" aka rocketships are seen in more than one place.
It boggles the mind, and the veracity of the cuneiform and writings
are verified.
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