Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?

Moving this thread back up so Moonage can see

Don't you just love bumping

Originally posted by punkinworks
To acheive the level of development we have today would require a worldwide civilization, because no one place has all the requisite raw materials to support a civillization of our level.
The imprint would be so large as to not be erasible, except over VERRRY LONG time scales, on on the order of millions of years.

Not necessarily.

We like to think our civilization is advanced, which in fact is for yesterday standards, but not true in a bigger picture.

If you stop to think what would be the most advance civilization that you can imagine?

For me it's an easy answer. Exactly were we are trying to get.

As soon as we develop the necessary technology, we as a civilization would leave minimum to not imprint at all on Earth's face. Everything would be recyclable, even the things that we don't even think about making recyclable. Buildings, cloths, vehicles, structures, energy sources would all be in tune with nature and return to it once they are expired or no longer necessary without requiring any addition processes or hardwares (machinery).

Everything would be re-usable not only by us but by the environment it self.

With that in mind we could well be living at the baby steps of a new civilization cycle (ours and all of the previous ones that we are aware of) after X number of civilization cycles interrupted by major natural (or not) disasters or externally caused environmental changes.

So in my opinion any really advanced civilization would look at things from a different perspective than our current one. They would have things far more advanced than ours, live with the comfort like most of us do (few to be true) while having practically none or no impact at all in their environment.

If one got to that point would be practically impossible to find it unless they've decided to leave a "note" behind that wouldn't easily vanish so the following ones could be aware of them. Which probably wouldn't be the case since they would understand stuff that we can't even think about and would probably respect any evolutionary process for the sake of diversity or not.

If such an advanced cilivization would use stone in some form or the other, then the remains of these would remain.

If they used biodegradable material and an alcohol based fuel, there would be no traces.

Howdy Thomas

The lead up to such a civilization would leave a trace as noted by कचोटना Coredrill

Taking resources out of the ground disturbs the ground. Think of mines and even just drill tubes. Now non geologists and archaeologists aren't often aware of how well the ground records intrusions into it. These can be detected thousands, milliions and even hundreds of millions of years later in soil that becomes sedimentary rock.

Some things don't recycle unless they are processed. This would mean the hidden civilization would, before it disappeared, proccess everything to recycle...oh wait.....

Some things would still be around, precious stones (not just pretty stones for humans but the ones we use for industrial use), ceramics, pottery, glass, etc these are essentially indestructible except by subduction.

reply to post by Hanslune


Hey Hans,

I agree, but only if we take our technology and understanding of how things work and know for a fact as a starting point.

A much more advance civilization could very well have ways of doing things and harness energy from things that we are yet to discover. Having a completely different mindset that would use ways not even similar to the ones we use know.

Also if such previous "cycles" like this ever happened they were most certainly interrupted by major environmental changes that we currently don't fully understand or are aware of. Thus making their traces and remaining on this Earth really hard to find if not impossible.

And even if in order to reach such point (evolution wise) they had to pass with a stage similar to our current one such remains would be long gone leaving few to no traces at all. Add this with major cataclysmic events and all we have left is ideas and dreams that can't be proven.

Another thing that worths keeping in mind is that if such a civilization ever existed they could very well be from a completely different nature and not even organic in the sense we are. This would also lead to a completely different relation to and use of the environment.

But all this is too much of an stretch since we currently can't even agree on the dating and history of some of the monuments that are still here

Anyway... really interesting thread


Cheers!

reply to post by thomas_


Hello Thomas

Yes we've discussed a number of ways an advance civilization might escape us. The easiest way is to be old. Very old makes it harder to detect but perhaps, not impossible, as we can detect signs of life going back hundreds of milllions of years.

We shall see.

Dating of current things is always a point of debate but I'd say the current structure of dating gives us more than a fair idea of who, what, where, when and how.

We look forward to future discoveries.

reply to post by Hanslune


Hey Hans

I agree and this is what makes this so interesting and fun.


cheers!

OP
Interesting thought provoking thread Congrats & BRAVO!

What would an advanced civilisation look like what signs are you looking for?

Do you consider modern western civilisation advanced? Are you looking for something that is familiar to us with current knowledge?

Even with "best guess" estimates of the age of the planet what we call civilization is like a drop containing a few molecules of water compared to the ocean!

200-300 yrs ago civilization relied on horse /oxen and cart for transport. Now in our "civilized"world most on the planet would in a short time perish if the finite fossil (by are they really formed that way?.. and it is seriously debated) fuels were expended.

Worse even those who do not rely on such have massively depleted fish and animal game stocks to survive!

If we could IMAGINE what an ideal super advanced civilization would be then I propose it would conform with complete harmony with the environment and place negligible footprint!

Would they resort to being like Star Trek "Borgs" wired up to a computer to converse and diminsh time with spouse and children and live in a world where marital breakdown war hostility are expected?
Or ....apparently we "civilized" people have known for decades that we use only approximately 10% of our brain capacity.... why write on stones?... when perhaps there is another MUCH better way?

The primitive people managed without computers or gas guzzling phallic symbols of superior manhood developed which were in the base object or guise of progress but really ....in worship of the almighty super dominating $dollar!

Still... I think there are massive artifacts staring us in the face... that clearly indicate SUPERIOR not understood evidence of much cleverer and sophisticated cultures and ways of life has existed in the past!

Howdy Has2b

Or ....apparently we "civilized" people have known for decades that we use only approximately 10% of our brain capacity....

Hans: That is an old old myth we use are entire brain just like every other mammal

Still... I think there are massive artifacts staring us in the face... that clearly indicate SUPERIOR not understood evidence of much cleverer and sophisticated cultures and ways of life has existed in the past!

Hans: Such as?

reply to post by Hanslune



Hi Hans!

I have no desire to derail the thread into petty arguement .....PERIOD

But you seem ABSOLUTELY SURE of your first point? CLOSED MIND?... those that know it all, will never learn!

Point 2.

The place here at ATS (which I visit sparingly, however there are indeed gems to be found)

I have no desire to be goaded into specifics on that one... but maybe you could sidetrack your own thread?

You thought Giza? YES that too!... zillions of threads on that and more info than you need for me to address that issue or specific

But just for u an astounding ( but by mo means the best candidate) and possibly & more magnificent to behold is say :

eg Abel Simbel:

Why would a Pharoh build a monument for his treasured wife taking several decades....in a relatively remote uninhabited region, accross country borders?

Why does modern "civilized" experts ??? discount the records that indicating RamsesII renovated and defaced most of what he is credited with BUILDING?

See it , then YOU seriously contemplate how to build it!


Even in its shattered cut up relocated destination.... it screams OF A PRIOR MORE SOPHISTICATED capability... beyond our "civilized" understanding!

But ... of course I must return to the civilized world and hear the news about how the paper money tyrants need to feed the economy with cash to keep it afloat!

Any empire nation or co-allition could not would not be capable of building it neither would our civilized greed possibly justify such a "useless" luxury!?

Thanks for the response

cheers
Has2b

reply to post by Has2b

Still... I think there are massive artifacts staring us in the face... that clearly indicate SUPERIOR not understood evidence of much cleverer and sophisticated cultures and ways of life has existed in the past!

Hmm, like maybe the moon, created to cause the tides of the oceans? It is amazing that our moon has this giant, easy to distinguish face, looking down upon us nightly.

reply to post by poet1b


An article on using trace chemicals to detect signs of biological life. If proven this will push back found multi-celled life to 635 Ma.

Find that sponge

One of these newer methods involves detecting breakdown products from the lipid molecules which act as important structural components in the cell membranes of animals.

Over time, these will transform to leave a molecule known as cholestrane; and for sponges, this exclusively takes the form known as 24-isopropylcholestane.

reply to post by Hanslune


Hans,

That pic you posted is obviously of some man-made fortress that has since been buried under millions of years of debris.

Look at all the straight lines. There are no straight lines in nature, you know.

That thing has to be the outer wall of some Atlantean fortress.

Harte

and who would know better than a high school math teacher and self proclaimed failed atlantologist like harte





Mod Note: Please stay on Topic – Review This Link.

[edit on Sat Feb 7 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by Harte


Great discovery Harte

Yep and note how 'THEY" put it out into the public for disinformation and to hide it in plain view......'THEY' are devilishly clever....

reply to post by Hanslune


It appears to be Asgaardian, as Thor has left his hammer there to guard the place.

If you get too near, you'll get such a toe -smashing!

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
reply to post by Hanslune

 

It appears to be Asgaardian, as Thor has left his hammer there to guard the place.

If you get too near, you'll get such a toe -smashing!

Harte

Hah you near sighted intellectual, you have mis-identified the scepter of sophomania as a mere Asgardian hammer.

I laugh at your uneducated guesses and pray that a friendly Wanyūdō gives you a smarter soul.

Must say Harte's comment was clever and funny!

But Hans... the resulting flog fest has derailed or at least diminished your own thread?

Maybe Harte could give us an "expert opinion" of the how the intricate block formations at extreme altitude in Peru, where again a knife blade cannot penetrate the joints of massive irregular blocks, were put together by .....?

reply to post by Has2b


Aaaah, just having fun. We shall deem you the wet blanket of this thread!

To your question

Short answer: Unproven

Longer answer: Based on what is known of stone masonry you have several options.

One misconception about Inca and earlier cultures stone working, only a small amount of it is the high quality-all-the-way-thru-the-wall stuff, the majority is not and much of this uses the following masonry trick



They worked to line up the outer edges, similar to a a Roman technique of using two cut faces over a body of rubble.

Now for the really good cut stuff. they may have used measuring frames, abrasives and wood splits. All involving intensive, repetitive labor. They did tend to use smaller stones on upper courses.

The quarrying was done by precussion and spliting and there are some indications of fire spliting.

For greater detail you can look at: Protzen, J. -P. (1986) Inca stonemasonry. Scientific American, 254, 94-105.

Protzen, Jean-Pierre and Stella E. Nair (2000). On Reconstructing Tiwanaku Architecture.

In the above there is discussion of the use of groves to aid in handling and the use of copper I 'staples' to bind the stones together

Now usually this amazement at the stone work leads to concepts of mechanization, aliens and advanced humans. There are several problems with this. One we know where the quarrying took place and these show no sign of anything beyond stone age quarrying techniques. ie, they bashed or split the rocks. No evidence for any advanced tools or techniques.

Refusal to believe that the Inka would spend the time and effort to get this level of detail, is common. If you ever visit a European cathedral, you'll see stone work superior to the Incans - hand done, there biggest advantage was iron tools - but you can do the same things with stones - its just a magnitude more difficult.



[edit on 7/2/09 by Hanslune]

reply to post by Hanslune


In regards to the Incas

What’s really amazing and not much discussed is how they lined them up yes they did as mentioned above but when you consider the sheer weight of some of these stone the whole idea of chip and grind the top of the lower stone then move into place the top stone then remove and re-chip or pound them until it makes a perfect match becomes on heck of a job when you consider some of these stones weighed tons.



There is other amazing examples of how they like many have speculated with tthe egyptians that they older work is more advanced than the later period work.







[edit on 7-2-2009 by SLAYER69]