Could an advanced civilization have escaped our notice?

Hi Harte!

Nice to meet you here too.

The Spartan...as of now!

Welcome back to Gazrok (someone recently posted a question to you on a thread brought back from 2004) and welcome to a fellow who is in National land. How ya doing Core.

Core, why is your location noted at both ends of the Emirates - that is one heck of a commute!

Yep, an advanced culture would be nearly impossible to 'hide'. if one existed it was either very, small or was somehow destroyed completely OR they were deliberately trying to hide their presence OR they did clean up after themselves in an extraordinary way and then were themselves wiped clean.

Of those possibilities being small is the more feasible IMO and the others, while possible, seem improbable based on what we known about archaeology, humans and nature.

reply to post by Gazrok

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I agree. Exactly what criteria are we using to describe advanced. Could they have used a form of transportation that did not require asphalt roads? Could their advancements have been more transcendental in nature? There have been artifacts found that have suggested there may have been forms of air travel among the ancients and of course there is folklore and religious tales. I admit that it is a stretch but is it totally outside the realm of possibility?

maybe in your arrogance you should have stumbled through a better responce



empires are ruled by a political entity or unit [not only 1 man] and you must take religion, economics, ideology, technology and military into account.



since size does matter...
"iarcuri", a middle bronze age city "discovered" by western science beside a major highway in 2005, has within its supermassive walls 400 more hectares than rome has within the aurelian walls [or 1/3rd bigger than rome]. in 2009, western science may announce they've found a star shaped city which is just as big but a few thousand years older. then there is the great vara....

an advanced civilization is simply one that digs much much much bigger holes [canals etc] than they should long before they should, or smelts metals thousands of years earlier, or builds huge cut stone walls which then wash out from under vinca settlements...

but go icke go.




[edit on 9-1-2009 by Parta]

I think that an advanced civilization could take many forms. The key factor would be the ability to survive with minimal effort, thereby allowing the people to enjoy more liesurely lifestyles, concentrate on Arts and other higher levels of living.

What we are seeing in the first world nations, are declines in populations. An ancient civilization that advanced far beyond all other humans, that was easily able to feed itself, might experience population decline or at least stability, meaning that such a civilization might reach a certain size, and remain at that size. Without any viable enemies, they wouldn't need huge structures, their technological prowess giving them so much of a military supremacy. There would be no powerful central government, no huge walls to protect them from enemies, because there would be no enemies capable of challenging them.

Maybe for transportation, at least of goods, food and such, an ancient civilization might have domesticated Mammoths. An agrarian based society would not have had any great needs to travel long distances in a short time, not having any large armies marching off on conquests. Their main concern would be transportation of food, materials, and goods. With few large cities, no massive infrastructure would be needed to feed and care for large populations.

reply to post by poet1b

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they ate mammoths. ronald mcmagnon had a stall on every corner.

in europe they could sail or paddle almost anywhere. the water was only a few feet deep most places.

you can see a map of the sea in the sixth minute of this episode on budapest [disappeared sometime in the last 10ky]
cities of the underworld - history channel






[edit on 9-1-2009 by Parta]

reply to post by Parta

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ronald mcmagnon? I hope they made a better burger than the current franchise.

It is hard to farm in a lake. Most farms would still probably be a good distance from a water route, althoug when at all possible, those would have been the transportation method of choice.

Maybe looking for canals that may have existed long ago, or that were made, but so long ago that no one has noticed, like walls in the middle of a city, would be a good way to find such an ancient civilization.

reply to post by poet1b

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it was called the giant mac. when they switched to auroch is became the huge mac. we are in the third generation so how good could it be.

if you're just finding something as big as iarcuri [which is clearly visible from a major highway and space] in 2005, then you should expect that there might be real goodies if you look... but you have to zoom out because everything is massive [the colosseum of rome can sit on a wall at iarcuri for example].

reply to post by Hanslune

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The idea that a civilization could have developed an extremely high level of technology and yet not gotten out of their own little area of the planet is unlikely I think. All civilizations have migrated, travelled and conquered to some degree and the more technologically advanced, the further they travel. The coming together of diverse peoples and thoughts seems to be what leads to more accelerated advancements in thinking and technology and cultural sophistication.

So we're to believe that a small group of people, 10-20,000, reached extremely high levels of technology yet never left the Island of Atlantis? I'm not sure I can buy that. Island savages are island savages for the fact that isolation fosters savagery. Technology is an adaptation to gain advantage over the world around you and the peoples threatening you. Without the existence of those, where is the necccessity to mother the inventions?

reply to post by hammanderr

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i question the term advanced. I should have first questioned the term civilized. Please don't think this is a backhanded attack. Actually your post made me smile. If anything it is probably a feeble attempt at humor.

reply to post by Hanslune

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Hans...My Company HO is in Abu Dhabi, but the project I work is based in the Northern Most emirate of Ras Al Khaimah. I go to Abu Dhabi Only for review Meetings and Troubleshooting.

reply to post by Parta

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I think they are still using the same meat from way back then, call it the woolly mac.

Cornesti-Iarcuri, very interesting find.

Here are a few good links.

www.youtube.com...

fredfred.net...

Here is another short piece about Teotihuacán that is interesting. Someone posting on a forum. It also links to pictures of Cornesti-Iarcuri.

www.unexplained-mysteries.com...

reply to post by poet1b

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Howdy Poet

The Fred net link was interesting. It must have been this that an earlier poster couldn't seem to talk about clearly.

The Troy thing is a bit off, but then the Greek camp at the "Troy" in Turkey has never been found. Until recently no actual evidence for that Troy to be the Homerian Troy had been found. A few years ago a Hittite document ID a certain Truwisa which had a spring inside it walls - which the site of Troy does have.

Perhaps Calvert was wrong and he didn't find Troy? A interesting speculation.

Salam alikum Coredrill, how is the traffic these days? I left the UAE last year after 14 years.




[edit on 10/1/09 by Hanslune]

Old civilisation hidden in the dark?

What about another one som 60+ years old?

I´m getting more and more convinced that there´s a civilisation kept in the dark for the public, yet our rulers of the world know a whole lot about them.

And so do you!

IF these guys have survived to this day it would explain a whole bunch of mysterys.

Who am I talking about?

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by serenityone

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A bit off topic eh Serenity?

Nazi UFO's from the Antarctic........

Except from the part of the civilisation being more than 10 000 years old I think it fits the topic description very well...

reply to post by serenityone

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It would seem its just UFO stuff - and off topic for this discussion - which you also posted at the UFO site under your thread "War on pirates? Bite me!"



[edit on 10/1/09 by Hanslune]

In point of fact, we have missed lots of advanced civilizations for lots of reasons, otherwise our knowledge of the past would be perfect, right? Cultural arrogance is the worst cause of missing things, ignorance of terrain and geological change work against finding things, too. Shorelines have changed dramatically, like around the Black Sea, some 7,000 years ago:

media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com... 9.shtml
www.cosis.net...

We also know (proven now) that meteoric impacts caused the Younger Dryas cooling period and wiped out most of North America and wreaked havoc globally, flooding most if not all shore-based civs at that time.

www.sciencemag.org...
www.sott.net...

We also have the evidence of newly discovered advanced civilizations
South America:

news.mongabay.com...

news.mongabay.com...

As to whether these civs qualify as advanced depends upon your point of view, I guess, but I submit that these civs were agronomically advanced beyond what most of our current civs' understanding and tech, because they needed to focus on food production following the Younger Dryas impact event:

news.mongabay.com...

Look at how many fruits and veggies originated in either North or South America that have become staple crops worldwide: potatoes, tomatoes, maize, etc. What is particularly notable is the biodiversity of those crops, most probably the result of advanced agricultural research, which itself was necessary because of the impact consequences.

As an aside, the Native American civilizations the Europeans encountered were far more advanced politically, socially, and agriculturally than they (the Euros) were, just what you'd expect to develop from survivors of a massive impact event whose continued existence depended utterly upon cooperation and resource management. The Conquest turned more on the primitive social advancement and attendant ruthlessness of the Europeans than upon their advanced military tech.

So the answer is yes, of course we can, have and do miss evidence of advanced civilizations all the time, partly out of ignorance, partly out of arrogance, and partly due to dumb luck. But the situation is improving: with more people looking with better and more sophisticated equipment more evidence is emerging that there have been many advanced civs before us, advanced in different ways and directions, but advanced nontheless.

reply to post by TheColdDragon

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Hello there TheColdDragon

An interesting speculation, however if they had nano technology that could eat everythng then the world would be gone! Obviously that didn't happen.

Sure a super technology might be able to complete erase a civilization but that in itself would leave traces, destroying stuff leaves traces in the soil - now if this technology was so powerful that could eliminate every trace of artificality and nature then yes we couldn't detect it - and if the technology that did it was also completely erase -then yes we wouldn't detect it.

Hey there Apacheman

In many of the example you cite we DO or have found those civilizations so in that sense your arguement is moot. However I believe your point was that as we learn more we will find more. A meteor wiping out shore based civilizations? There was an event that affected NA but it hasn't been shown to have affected anyother civilizations (we haven't found any) saying something is proven when its a new theory is always risky.




We know in many cases how these crops originated and can still find traces of the original species. If they were, bio-engineered, then the 'advanced' civilization was a bit dense. You might want to look at how we think maize evolved from Teosinte.




Very debateable. I love the Maya but they were not socially more advanced, their culture was an elite based system of city states that constantly war with one another, there agricultuaral system collapsed. The Aztecs killed hundreds of thousands for religious reasons. The Incan were imperialistic. etc. I think we could points in some areas to the natives but nothing that would indicate a previous culture, they appear to be all local cultural evolutions and emergences.

You might want to start a separate thread on that idea however.