Adoption is not a good alternative to abortion.

Originally posted by AermacchiWhat I'd like to know Sonya, is where did you get the idea to use such a silly straw man so close to the original response, clearly showing, I had never mentioned an thing about seeing them and saying how horrible they are.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Where did you get this idea? Ha ha ha No guy you are wrong and if you have ever seen an abortion, you would know better

Who were you talking about then? You clearly stated that THEY didn't know what they were talking about because THEY probably had NOT seen an abortion, yet YOU do know what you are talking about.

As far as whether or not you participated in slavery or genocide, you use the term "we" so I assume you and others DID participate. Were you using the term "we" to describe the actions of people you have never met? Well that makes no sense.

You just ramble on about any topic that crosses your mind. But of course if you laugh and use words like "strawman" then you believe your arguments are superior.

[edit on 13-12-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by Aermacchi...like the way we did when we were systematically murdering all the American Indians, we called them "savages" because we didn't human beings. We also did it with the African Americans we kidnapped and brought here calling them many names but rarely did we call them Madam or Sir.

"We" did all that? Oh my god, you were there? Not only have you witnessed many abortions but you also witnessed "us" killing indeginous Americans and African slaves?

You should write a book. With all the horrible things you have been involved with I am surprised you have managed to survive this long.

Good thing I have not eaten breakfast, if I had I might throw up right now.

So is this what you do when you have nothing substantive to say Sonya? You get selectively ignorant? Now, we can no longer assume you have the common sense to understand that the "we" would be US the United States. Of course you are aware that I couldn't have done all that you are suggesting in your back handed ad-hom, so my question is, why all the combative sarcasm and sophomoric replies?



[edit on 13-12-2008 by Aermacchi]

Guys let's stick to the OP

THis isn't a debate on whether abortion is right or wrong, but about the emotional impact of adoption.

I still havent seen any posts quoting parents of the aborted sons and daughters... I would expect that their responses be more full of grief and mourning than those who chose to let their sons and daughters live.

think about it... you give up your child in hope that it would have a better life than what you could provide for it at the time or perhaps ever.
or
you take away that child's opportunity to even experience life.
i dont know about you, but i dont see the difference in terminating the child 5 days after conception vs terminating the childs life 5 days after birth.

before the child is born, you may have no idea how much of a burden it may be... but after its born.. why not abort it then? its obviously, to some, a heavy burden to carry. (note some sarcasm has been used and im sorry if that offends some of you, im just trying to make my point very clear)

you cant just label an unborn child as a non-living thing or not-human to justify the decision to terminate its life.

why do people end up wanting to abort their babies or give them up for adoption in the first place? thats a whole other set of issues but ill give you a couple of answers....

kids are being taught in school what sex is, how it works, how to "be safe" and they are taught that abstinence is also another alternative to being safe... no one ever stresses to these kids to just wait until they are married... no one ever stresses to them that abortions are not the answer to escape the consequences. no one ever stresses to these kids that sex is a special act and should only be for one person.
the education system has degraded the entire act of sex as it is a part of love in a relationship/marriage not a pleasure tool.

but back to the issue at hand... adoption vs abortion...
I think parents would regret more the decision to kill an unborn child than the decision to give it up for adoption in hope of giving that child a better opportunity at experiencing life.

reply to post by Lokey13


In summary, you are saying when there are more mouths to feed there is less for you and you might have to pay more for that life. Therefore, it is ok to perform abortions on lower class minorities. That is probably the most selfish and racist comments I have ever read. After reading your comments I am not sure if you are for abortion or just against minorities having children and abortion is a convenient way to get rid of them.

Also, the arguments that because a developing zygote does not have say a complete heart, brain etc. they are therefore dependent on their mother and we can abort them do not wash. Genetics tells us that when two haploid gametes join they form a diploid cell, that is now a unique individual from a recombination of parental characteristics (Hickman, Roberts, Keen et al., Principles of Zoology 14th Edition, Page 138). This is a unique single cell human. At any development stage, dependence on the mother should not be a qualifier for abortion. For example, there is no human that is not dependent on some life. We are dependent on some other life forms for at the very least food, even if you are a vegetarian. Even if you are as wealthy as Bill Gates you are dependent on some other human or animal for something.

If you post ABOUT another member and NOT about the Topic

Your post will be removed and you could be warned

Fair Enough?

Thanks

Semper

Originally posted by asmeone2

Personally I am sick and tired of adoption being touted as a panacea solution for unwanted pregnancies.

I do not understand the line of thinking that encourages mothers to "face the responsibility" and carry the child to term, then give it away, even if they say it is for love. They cannot gurantee that that child will have a better life at all, and that it won't grow up feeling unwanted.

Furthermore I can't understand how many pro-lifers can be so callous as to say, essentially, "Don't worry if you're pregnant, you can adopt it out." as if it has no emotional repercussion on the mother. I've heard them go on and on about the "empty cradle in the heart" that abortion causes, yet they completely ignore how terrible adoption can be.

Not that abortion is any better but anecdotally, from the women I know that have given up babies for adoption, I think it may be harder to recover from giving up a child than from aborting one. TO describe those whom I have spoken to, the gerneral idea seems to be that they can, over years, rationalize an abortion by saying they didn't know or were pressured into it and yes they did kill the baby, but at least it is in a better place. The adoption mothers on the other hand, always have to face what the first article described: they know that the child is still alive, possible in a terrible life or hating them for 'abbandoning' them.

An example I gave in the other thread was a woman I knew once. She had given birth to a baby while she was unwed in college, then gave it up for adoption. She NEVER got over that, and after she got married gave birth to 7 children, whom were all subsequently ignored and starved of love. She essentially abandoned them, beyond the most basic needs. From my interactions with her, I feel very strongly that she was hoping that if she
had enough children, she would eventually re-create the adopted baby.




In conclusion I do not beleive that adoption is a good alternative to abortions, especially when the emotional distress is compared.

I beleive that we should concentrate on helping those that do want to raise their wanted but untimely pregnancies to term. I also believe that we should concentrate on equipping women to prevent themselves from getting pregnant in the first place. This means personal responsibility first and foremost, and contraceptive availibility for those who do choose to have sex.

Consider what you are really saying, in effect, "mothers should kill their offspring rather than give them up for adoption."

Can the emotional distress of giving away a baby really be compared to killing it?

reply to post by Methuselah

i dont know about you, but i dont see the difference in terminating the child 5 days after conception vs terminating the childs life 5 days after birth.

I sincerely hope you don't mean this the way I'm reading it.
It is thoughts like that which make young mothers give birth and put babies in dumpsters.

reply to post by CharlesMartel


If you had read my entire OP you would have seen this:

I beleive that we should concentrate on helping those that do want to raise their wanted but untimely pregnancies to term. I also believe that we should concentrate on equipping women to prevent themselves from getting pregnant in the first place. This means personal responsibility first and foremost, and contraceptive availibility for those who do choose to have sex.

And this later down the page:

I am not promoting abortion here, I need to make that clear. I do think that as it stands adoption is the better choice, when it can be managed. I never would have taken you as PL, GW!

Nowhere in this thread have I advocated abortion or said that it was 'the answer!'

[edit on 14-12-2008 by asmeone2]

reply to post by AccessDenied


sorry for writing that in a way for misinterpretation...
what I meant was that there is no difference... its murder either way. its unethical, and its immoral.
thank you for pointing that out.

if abortion was made illegal altogether, im sure the number of teenage pregnancies would decrease over time and the number of people infected with STDs would also decrease over time.

then the only thing we would have to worry about are the mothers at risk and either have to have abortion or possibly suffer through death themselves.

Why is abortion an issue? its murder either way you look at it. there is no different as I stated earlier between before birth and after birth. it was a human right before it was born, is was a human in the canal, and it was a human the second it was fully delivered.
there is no argument. its a human either way. therefore no matter how long you wait or if you want to abort a child, its murder.

for some reason we arent grasping this concept. 5 seconds before its born, legally its ok to "abort" the child... now what about 5 seconds after its born? is it still legal? why not? there is no difference.

adoption is the better alternative. there are many people in this world who cant have kids for many reasons. some people cant have kids because of a previous abortion... by the way, abortion can make a woman sterile in case non of you knew that.

adoption is the answer to some folks who had an abortion but want to do there part in never letting that happen to another human being. they know what its like and they want to help.

if I knew someone who was planning on having an abortion and I had to money to adopt the child... id do it in a heartbeat. its not fair to the child not to experience life. and its not fair to those people who are actually willing to care for a child, not to have the opportunity to serve those children with who they are.

but if you want, you can think of it this way... every baby aborted goes to heaven.

so either way, its really a win win argument for the Christians.

Originally posted by Methuselah
reply to post by AccessDenied

 

if abortion was made illegal altogether, im sure the number of teenage pregnancies would decrease over time and the number of people infected with STDs would also decrease over time.

That is absolutely wrong.

What would happen is this:

1. You would have a lot of single mothers, or a lot of mothers who got married and then had a baby "early" and would in most cases find themselves trapped in an aweful marraige
2. A lot of mothers would become very "accident prone" during their pregnancies, and 'miscarry' after falling down some stairs, for example.
3. Baby Moses laws would suddenly become a lot more popular. So would outright infanticide.
4. 'Creative' Plan B methods would show up more. Remember the kids in Florida who thought bleach was a contraceptive and an abortificant? Some women may try to take herbal abortificants too. These methods are around and do work--that is why some Eurpean countries regarding abortion date back to the 16oos.

my oldest brother was adopted, his birth parents gave him up because they were forced to by their parents back in the 60's when having a kid at a young unmarried age meant being shunned by family and friends.

all of us kids have had the greatest upbringing. we didnt get everything we wanted but we got everything we needed.

many years ago he got a call from someone claiming to be his sister, got to know his biological family and all that.

he says he is glad he was adopted out as he had better parents and a much better life, and still sees his biological family now and then

edit: and now he has met his biological mother she is more glad that she DID give him up, as he went to a loving caring home and become a well adjusted adult with a family of his own.
it confirmed to her that she did do the right thing.

[edit on 15/12/08 by Obliv_au]

[edit on 15/12/08 by Obliv_au]

I was adopted at birth in 1969. As a result of that adoption I've had an incredible life which afforded me opportunities for enrichment which would have likely not been available had my birth mother kept me. 14 and 12 years ago, I located my birth father and mother respectively. While "get over" is not the term I would chose, my birth mother was satisfied with her decision in that the challenges I faced would have been on a considerably more fundamental level than they were. i.e. Because I grew up with financial stability and two full time parents I was able to engage issues of greater abstraction rather than the challenge of assimilating financial instability or the absence of a parent.
It is extremely important to note however that she did end up with the luxury of getting to find out that I ended up with a loving family and satisfying life. Not knowing is an eternally burning question for every birth mother and is not "gotten over". At the same time, it does not have to be debilitating.
If you're wondering, at this point I have the good fortune (and sometimes burden) of having 3 families (I use designations of "Mom & Dad", "Mother", & "Father") with which I have loving, rewarding relationships. Interestingly though, there is no interaction whatsoever, between any of the families and never has been - While my mother doesn't care, in order to preserve prior stable realities, my mom&dad and father expressed no contact with one or both of the others as preferable.
Anyway, adoption is sometimes a viable and healthy alternative. One size does not fit all. Had abortion been legal, I would not be here today - and that's o.k. with me. At least that way i would not have been fated to be placed in a sea of fire for eternity (which seems to be the case as a result of being born and not choosing to be christian! lol kinda peculiar that more christians aren't pro-abortion rights when looked at from that perspective eh?).
My final thought is that the issue of some long term knowledge of outcome should be discussed - however consider also the cases where the adoption doesn't go well, or the child suffers some unfortunate accidental fate or what not. The possibility of unwarranted guilt felt by the birth mother is terrible. Anyway, it's complicated and people need to be sensitive and respectful of every individual's rights of personal governance and stop trying to control the lives, beliefs, and morals of others. Freedom is limited only by the extent of one's destructive effects on another or others (i.e. amount of impedance of THEIR freedom).

reply to post by asmeone2


your ideas of the future might happen at first... but like I said, given enough time to cycle through the already pregnant crowd, and heavily influenced crowds of people, we might start to see a change for the better.
lets start telling kids about adoption in high school. lets tell them that its preferred over abortion. lets let them know that they can seek counseling on that decision. lets let them know that there are families out there that will care for them and help them in anyway they can in order to prevent an innocent death.

every human being has the right to experience life. i think its up to that person whether or not its worth living. im not saying to go kill yourself if you feel that life sucks (and im sure some people on here were going to jump on that statement as if I promote suicidal decisions, people like to take things out of context way too much) but it should be up to the person to decide if there life is worth having here on this earth.