Originally posted by AermacchiWhat I'd like to know Sonya, is where did you get the idea to use such a silly straw man so close to the original response, clearly showing, I had never mentioned an thing about seeing them and saying how horrible they are.

Originally posted by Aermacchi
Where did you get this idea? Ha ha ha No guy you are wrong and if you have ever seen an abortion, you would know better

Who were you talking about then? You clearly stated that THEY didn't know what they were talking about because THEY probably had NOT seen an abortion, yet YOU do know what you are talking about.

As far as whether or not you participated in slavery or genocide, you use the term "we" so I assume you and others DID participate. Were you using the term "we" to describe the actions of people you have never met? Well that makes no sense.

You just ramble on about any topic that crosses your mind. But of course if you laugh and use words like "strawman" then you believe your arguments are superior.

[edit on 13-12-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by Aermacchi...like the way we did when we were systematically murdering all the American Indians, we called them "savages" because we didn't human beings. We also did it with the African Americans we kidnapped and brought here calling them many names but rarely did we call them Madam or Sir.

"We" did all that? Oh my god, you were there? Not only have you witnessed many abortions but you also witnessed "us" killing indeginous Americans and African slaves?

You should write a book. With all the horrible things you have been involved with I am surprised you have managed to survive this long.

Good thing I have not eaten breakfast, if I had I might throw up right now.

So is this what you do when you have nothing substantive to say Sonya? You get selectively ignorant? Now, we can no longer assume you have the common sense to understand that the "we" would be US the United States. Of course you are aware that I couldn't have done all that you are suggesting in your back handed ad-hom, so my question is, why all the combative sarcasm and sophomoric replies?



[edit on 13-12-2008 by Aermacchi]

Guys let's stick to the OP

THis isn't a debate on whether abortion is right or wrong, but about the emotional impact of adoption.

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I still havent seen any posts quoting parents of the aborted sons and daughters... I would expect that their responses be more full of grief and mourning than those who chose to let their sons and daughters live.

think about it... you give up your child in hope that it would have a better life than what you could provide for it at the time or perhaps ever.
or
you take away that child's opportunity to even experience life.
i dont know about you, but i dont see the difference in terminating the child 5 days after conception vs terminating the childs life 5 days after birth.

before the child is born, you may have no idea how much of a burden it may be... but after its born.. why not abort it then? its obviously, to some, a heavy burden to carry. (note some sarcasm has been used and im sorry if that offends some of you, im just trying to make my point very clear)

you cant just label an unborn child as a non-living thing or not-human to justify the decision to terminate its life.

why do people end up wanting to abort their babies or give them up for adoption in the first place? thats a whole other set of issues but ill give you a couple of answers....

kids are being taught in school what sex is, how it works, how to "be safe" and they are taught that abstinence is also another alternative to being safe... no one ever stresses to these kids to just wait until they are married... no one ever stresses to them that abortions are not the answer to escape the consequences. no one ever stresses to these kids that sex is a special act and should only be for one person.
the education system has degraded the entire act of sex as it is a part of love in a relationship/marriage not a pleasure tool.

but back to the issue at hand... adoption vs abortion...
I think parents would regret more the decision to kill an unborn child than the decision to give it up for adoption in hope of giving that child a better opportunity at experiencing life.

If you post ABOUT another member and NOT about the Topic

Your post will be removed and you could be warned

Fair Enough?

Thanks

Semper

Originally posted by asmeone2

Personally I am sick and tired of adoption being touted as a panacea solution for unwanted pregnancies.

I do not understand the line of thinking that encourages mothers to "face the responsibility" and carry the child to term, then give it away, even if they say it is for love. They cannot gurantee that that child will have a better life at all, and that it won't grow up feeling unwanted.

Furthermore I can't understand how many pro-lifers can be so callous as to say, essentially, "Don't worry if you're pregnant, you can adopt it out." as if it has no emotional repercussion on the mother. I've heard them go on and on about the "empty cradle in the heart" that abortion causes, yet they completely ignore how terrible adoption can be.

Not that abortion is any better but anecdotally, from the women I know that have given up babies for adoption, I think it may be harder to recover from giving up a child than from aborting one. TO describe those whom I have spoken to, the gerneral idea seems to be that they can, over years, rationalize an abortion by saying they didn't know or were pressured into it and yes they did kill the baby, but at least it is in a better place. The adoption mothers on the other hand, always have to face what the first article described: they know that the child is still alive, possible in a terrible life or hating them for 'abbandoning' them.

An example I gave in the other thread was a woman I knew once. She had given birth to a baby while she was unwed in college, then gave it up for adoption. She NEVER got over that, and after she got married gave birth to 7 children, whom were all subsequently ignored and starved of love. She essentially abandoned them, beyond the most basic needs. From my interactions with her, I feel very strongly that she was hoping that if she
had enough children, she would eventually re-create the adopted baby.




In conclusion I do not beleive that adoption is a good alternative to abortions, especially when the emotional distress is compared.

I beleive that we should concentrate on helping those that do want to raise their wanted but untimely pregnancies to term. I also believe that we should concentrate on equipping women to prevent themselves from getting pregnant in the first place. This means personal responsibility first and foremost, and contraceptive availibility for those who do choose to have sex.

Consider what you are really saying, in effect, "mothers should kill their offspring rather than give them up for adoption."

Can the emotional distress of giving away a baby really be compared to killing it?

my oldest brother was adopted, his birth parents gave him up because they were forced to by their parents back in the 60's when having a kid at a young unmarried age meant being shunned by family and friends.

all of us kids have had the greatest upbringing. we didnt get everything we wanted but we got everything we needed.

many years ago he got a call from someone claiming to be his sister, got to know his biological family and all that.

he says he is glad he was adopted out as he had better parents and a much better life, and still sees his biological family now and then

edit: and now he has met his biological mother she is more glad that she DID give him up, as he went to a loving caring home and become a well adjusted adult with a family of his own.
it confirmed to her that she did do the right thing.

[edit on 15/12/08 by Obliv_au]

[edit on 15/12/08 by Obliv_au]

I was adopted at birth in 1969. As a result of that adoption I've had an incredible life which afforded me opportunities for enrichment which would have likely not been available had my birth mother kept me. 14 and 12 years ago, I located my birth father and mother respectively. While "get over" is not the term I would chose, my birth mother was satisfied with her decision in that the challenges I faced would have been on a considerably more fundamental level than they were. i.e. Because I grew up with financial stability and two full time parents I was able to engage issues of greater abstraction rather than the challenge of assimilating financial instability or the absence of a parent.
It is extremely important to note however that she did end up with the luxury of getting to find out that I ended up with a loving family and satisfying life. Not knowing is an eternally burning question for every birth mother and is not "gotten over". At the same time, it does not have to be debilitating.
If you're wondering, at this point I have the good fortune (and sometimes burden) of having 3 families (I use designations of "Mom & Dad", "Mother", & "Father") with which I have loving, rewarding relationships. Interestingly though, there is no interaction whatsoever, between any of the families and never has been - While my mother doesn't care, in order to preserve prior stable realities, my mom&dad and father expressed no contact with one or both of the others as preferable.
Anyway, adoption is sometimes a viable and healthy alternative. One size does not fit all. Had abortion been legal, I would not be here today - and that's o.k. with me. At least that way i would not have been fated to be placed in a sea of fire for eternity (which seems to be the case as a result of being born and not choosing to be christian! lol kinda peculiar that more christians aren't pro-abortion rights when looked at from that perspective eh?).
My final thought is that the issue of some long term knowledge of outcome should be discussed - however consider also the cases where the adoption doesn't go well, or the child suffers some unfortunate accidental fate or what not. The possibility of unwarranted guilt felt by the birth mother is terrible. Anyway, it's complicated and people need to be sensitive and respectful of every individual's rights of personal governance and stop trying to control the lives, beliefs, and morals of others. Freedom is limited only by the extent of one's destructive effects on another or others (i.e. amount of impedance of THEIR freedom).