Adoption is not a good alternative to abortion. , page 1

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Topic started on 10-12-2008 @ 07:30 PM by asmeone2

Edit: Before anyone brings it up I am not talking about step-parent adoptions here.

After watching two posters who had had abortions debate in another thread, I think it is time to examine one of the other reasons, besides the actual termination of the pregnancy, that is offered as a good reason to outlaw abortions: it will invariably damage the mother's m ental health. The women are encouraged to carry the child to term, then give it up for adoption.

I want to examine the fallicies of this approach. While i do not doubt that some mothrs face severe depression after and abortion and I do not want to debate that, it frustrates me how seldome the deppression felt by birth mothers after loosing their child is talked about:

Ros and David Brawn made a decision when they got married - there would be no children. "We'd already had a baby in 1968 when we were 18. Because adoption was the norm for young unmarried mothers in those days, I had to give that baby away," says Ros. "It was a decision I would quickly come to regret every single day of my life and I felt very strongly that if our son was ever to come and look for me when he became an adult, it would be as if I'd be saying to him, 'You weren't convenient so we gave you away, but this child was convenient so we kept it.' "

Now 57, she and her husband are not sure it was the right path to have taken. "We've lacked the stability and focus I see in our friends who have children - and that's affected our marriage. I suppose you could say the marriage feels less grounded," says David.

He and Ros are one of many couples who gave up a baby for adoption in the 1950s, 60s or 70s and later went on to marry. Like most of these couples, not a day of their relationship has been unaffected by their loss. It is a very particular kind of loss. Unlike the death of a child, it cannot be grieved. Out there somewhere is your child speaking their first words, tying shoelaces for the first time, taking their first driving lessons, even having your first grandchild. And unlike people who lose a child through adoption but don't stay together, this is a loss that is more difficult to justify - to others, to yourselves and to your child. Even if you dare to hope for a reunion, will your offspring still want to know you once they learn that they could surely have been kept?

www.guardian.co.uk...

I went to Planned Parenthood and a counselor talked with me. I told her what I wanted to do, and she told me that giving my baby up for adoption was a very difficult path. BAH! My life was a difficult path. I had an idea that being pregnant and giving birth was difficult, but giving up a baby that I didn't want or need? Not a big deal at all. I was doing GOOD! for other people! and it would all be roses and sunshine at the end.

I saw a counselor through this whole process. I knew her from previous ****** up **** in my life and trusted her completely. After it was all over she told me that her children were adopted, but she didn't want to sway my decision by telling me in the beginning. She didn't want me to make my choice to please her. I want to believe that as an adoptive mother she didn't know the other side of adoption. She did quote me statistics about first mothers getting pregnant again after the first year or two to replace the baby that they lost. I didn't understand it at the time. My logical brain thought that you gave your baby up and walked away. End of story, right?

I picked adoptive parents early and bonded with them right away. I began to think of my son as theirs, a package that I was simply holding onto until it was time for them to take it. It wasn't my baby, it was theirs. The pregnancy was easy, I was twenty years old and everything was going to be fine. I was doing the right thing for everyone.

Toward the end of my pregnancy things got a little weird in my head. I bonded with my son, something that I did not expect to do at all. I struggled through more than 24 hours of labor and his adoptive mother was right there at my side when he was born. I spent the day with him in the hospital, holding him and sharing him with friends that visited. My counselor came to check on me, to see how I was doing and to see my son. Finally, I gave him to his new parents and left the hospital.

My friends took turns staying the with me night and day. As long as there was someone there I mostly kept it together. I'm not good at falling apart in front of people. Growing up I learned that it was more painful to cry in front of someone that didn't give a # than to cry alone. Eventually I was left alone to feel what I had bottled up inside, and the pain was beyond belief.

Recently a friend that is going through a divorce remarked that she did not know how I had gone through two divorces. I told her that divorce was not even close to the worst pain I had gone through in my life. My life has not been easy and I have been through a ****** of trauma, but nothing has even come close to the horror of losing my son.

(profanity edited out)

Are birth mothers who place children for adoption satisfied with their decision?
A more realistic objection was expressed in comments such as these:

My birthson is 18, 4-1-00 and not a day goes by that I haven't regretted giving him up. I have mourned his loss EVERY year of his life. Christmas and his birthday are horrible time's of the year for me to get through ... at time's to the point of being suicidal. ... Maybe you could ask the other two [children] who HATE the adopted brother because he got more of my concern and attention then they did while they were growing up ... because I was so consumed by his loss!

I realize that your main motivation here is to promote adoption but don't deceive your self the way you are trying to deceive these potential birthmother's, You are blatantly LYING to them when you say they will get over this by their child's second birthday. There is a good chance that even with the best counseling, if they are coerced at all, they will never get over the loss of their child.

And:

I take offense to the statement: "The research confirms what anecdotal reports have long held: it is a myth that women who place their children for adoption "never get over it."

HOW DARE YOU???????????? I did my best to destroy my life because I gave my twin sons up for adoption. I was finally blessed with another child 12 years later. I gave my children up because I was severely abused as a child and I knew in my heart that there was a chance that I might hurt them if I was angry. With a lot of counceling, love of the Lord AND the love of my child, my anger is gone. I am an excellent mother to my son.

You are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG about the "research" saying birthmothers eventually "get over" relinquishing their child for adoption!!!!!! I'm a birthmother who relinquished her only child in 1966. I am in close contact with other birthmothers from all time periods. WE NEVER GET OVER IT!!! I did not heal and find peace until I was reunited with my son two years ago. Now, let me get this straight: if we abort our child, we are evil. Yet if we "give up" our child to strangers who you deem to be more fit as parents, then we are "good." So you consider it "good" to rip a child from his/her natural mother's arms and hand the child to "more fit" individuals, thereby creating a life-long pain and trauma to the birthmother. You really think this is good? If so, it is YOU who are SICK!

www.pregnantpause.org...

note: please check the link. the author has done a lot of research trying to determine how typical these kinds of statements are.

Not to mention, the costs and potential risks of carrying a pregnancy to term are staggering. The number one reason women choose abortion is lack of funds, bear in mind.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2005 45.8 million Americans do not have health insurance. If this figure includes you, you can anticipate an average hospital bill of $5,000-$10,000 for a vaginal delivery. Add at least $2,000 if you need a c-section. These figures do not include the medical costs associated with nine months of prenatal visits, ultrasound costs and other lab costs. If your baby is born premature or with health problems, neonatal costs can range from a few thousand for a short stay to more than $200,000 if you baby is born more than 15 weeks early.

Even those parents with health insurance can expect to pay coinsurance and deductibles related to pregnancy and childbirth.

Even IF a woman has health care or manages to eck onto Medicaid that covers all of the medical costs, the above statistic isn't taking into account any possible complications and time off of work (income) that the woman may have to miss because of severe mornign sickness or fatigue, or possibly even the loss of a job because of complications.

It also doesn't take into account the extra food, new clothes and shoes, extra gas to and from doctor's, and other items that will be needed during the pregnancy.

(continued)

[edit on 10-12-2008 by asmeone2]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 07:30 PM by asmeone2

Personally I am sick and tired of adoption being touted as a panacea solution for unwanted pregnancies.

I do not understand the line of thinking that encourages mothers to "face the responsibility" and carry the child to term, then give it away, even if they say it is for love. They cannot gurantee that that child will have a better life at all, and that it won't grow up feeling unwanted.

Furthermore I can't understand how many pro-lifers can be so callous as to say, essentially, "Don't worry if you're pregnant, you can adopt it out." as if it has no emotional repercussion on the mother. I've heard them go on and on about the "empty cradle in the heart" that abortion causes, yet they completely ignore how terrible adoption can be.

Not that abortion is any better but anecdotally, from the women I know that have given up babies for adoption, I think it may be harder to recover from giving up a child than from aborting one. TO describe those whom I have spoken to, the gerneral idea seems to be that they can, over years, rationalize an abortion by saying they didn't know or were pressured into it and yes they did kill the baby, but at least it is in a better place. The adoption mothers on the other hand, always have to face what the first article described: they know that the child is still alive, possible in a terrible life or hating them for 'abbandoning' them.

An example I gave in the other thread was a woman I knew once. She had given birth to a baby while she was unwed in college, then gave it up for adoption. She NEVER got over that, and after she got married gave birth to 7 children, whom were all subsequently ignored and starved of love. She essentially abandoned them, beyond the most basic needs. From my interactions with her, I feel very strongly that she was hoping that if she
had enough children, she would eventually re-create the adopted baby.

In conclusion I do not beleive that adoption is a good alternative to abortions, especially when the emotional distress is compared.

I beleive that we should concentrate on helping those that do want to raise their wanted but untimely pregnancies to term. I also believe that we should concentrate on equipping women to prevent themselves from getting pregnant in the first place. This means personal responsibility first and foremost, and contraceptive availibility for those who do choose to have sex.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 08:03 PM by AccessDenied

Star and flag for you.
I cry as I sit here.
I was born to a young couple in 1971, and adopted by a couple with no other children in their late 40's.
I spent my life raised by babysitters, never really bonding with my adopted parents.
My father got sick with cancer when I was 7. Because my mother had to work, I came home from school and looked after him. That meant cleaning up after the sickness from chemo, giving him his pills, cooking dinner, and helping him to the washroom.
I WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD.
He passed away when I was ten. Then my mother became ill with cancer, and the process began again.
Our house was old, and never kept clean unless I tried my best to do so.
My mother had three bouts of cancer before she past away when I was 22.
Some better life I was given.
When I found myself pregnant at 15...there was no way in hell, anyone would take my baby away. After he was born, I kept him in my bedroom with me for three months.I wouldn't take him anywhere, or let anyone in..for fear they would take him away.
Wow..this is the hardest post I've ever written here.
A few years ago, I launched a search for my birth mother. As did she..for me.
We found each other, when we both registered on the same website.
She, and my birth father, had gotten married and had another child the same year I was born. Then another 2 years later before getting a divorce.
She was heartbroken at the story of my life, as she had hoped it would have been better.
We tried to have a relationship, but alas..there are too many hurt feelings between us,and animosity on the part of my younger sister.
There aren't always happy endings.
For me, after talking with her, and combining my own experience in life and my own feelings, adoption would never be an option for me.
I have serious issues with trusting people, either too much, or not enough.
I have abandonment issues, I just always expect people to leave me no matter what, and quite often I'll SELF SABOTAGE my own life to create that very scenario, just to prove I'm right. Sad huh?
Iam VERY protective of my own children still, sometimes to the point of being too extreme.
Adoption itself should NEVER be put out as an easy solution, just like abortion should never be.

I beleive that we should concentrate on helping those that do want to raise their wanted but untimely pregnancies to term. I also believe that we should concentrate on equipping women to prevent themselves from getting pregnant in the first place. This means personal responsibility first and foremost, and contraceptive availibility for those who do choose to have sex.

A better statement could not be said.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 08:45 PM by asmeone2

reply to post by AccessDenied

Thank you for sharing. I did not want to bring you to tears but thank you for being brave enough to share your story.

A very close friend of mine was in the same situation as you during high school. He was adopted and had no contact with his birth parents. His adoptive father either left or died (I don't remember) and then his adoptive mother died of cancer while he was in high school. He failed one year of high school due to her sickness, and then had to live alone and support himself while he repeated that year.

Despite the sugary "I know my parents gave me up because they loved me" line that goes through the media, I didn't even touch on how many kids I've known who have been adopted and have major emotional issues because of feeling abandoned.

You bring up another sad area of misinformation, the birth parents and child can *not* always reunite and form a relationship after the adoption; some people pushing for adoption make it out to be a temporary arrangement, like mother and child will be able to pick up like old friends, emotional issues be darned.

Edit: I would urge you to seek councelling from a professional or maybe any church you attend. Nobody deserves to suffer like you apparently are.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by asmeone2]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 08:48 PM by Incarnated

Pregnancy to term and birthing FOREVER changes the woman's phyiscal form and make-up. Like a virginity twice lost, the woman is never the same again. It must therefore remain ever the choice of the woman if she should want to be PUT THROUGH the phyisical changes that are associated with giving birth.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 08:52 PM by asmeone2

Originally posted by Incarnated
Pregnancy to term and birthing FOREVER changes the woman's phyiscal form and make-up. Like a virginity twice lost, the woman is never the same again. It must therefore remain ever the choice of the woman if she should want to be PUT THROUGH the phyisical changes that are associated with giving birth.

Yes thank you Incarnated, that is another point that is seldom addressed.

A woman will ALWAYS feel depression after she gives birth, be it at term, after an abortion, or after a miscarraige, because of hormonal releases. That should of course be taken into realistic account.

Edit: I didn't see that you said "to term."

I can't make a comparison because I have not had an abortion or miscarraige but strictly speaking on the physical side of things, an at-term birth is certainly going to make more of an effect.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by asmeone2]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:07 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by AccessDenied

I was 7 when my parents divorced. My entire life I had no father figure. Recently I spent the last to years living with and working for my father in hopes that I could make a working relationship with him. It ended when I learnt some things that proved he was a no-good scumbag who manipulated everyone to his own ends including me!! He has since fled the country avoiding the taxman.

I will probably never see him or speak to him again which is tragic, but knowing who he is, I'm not sorry.

My point is that we don't get to choose the family we are born into, the parents and siblings we get. But we can choose the family we make and the friends we surround ourselves with. Adoption or no, life can be pretty sh--house.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:12 PM by asmeone2

At least you had the chance to see who he was for youreself GW.

I think adopted kids have a legitimate grip, in not knowing about their parent's lives.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:20 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by asmeone2

Not everyone feels like they need to know their biological parents and in some cases, in a lot of cases, it's better that they don't know. If your parents are the bad sort, knowing them will affect you in bad ways. I had been told all my life that my father was a crook, I went looking for him expecting to be disappointed, yet hopeful all the same.

I'd rather not have bothered. Frankly I'd rather have been oblivious to him my whole life than to have known him.

But I think you are right, they should be able to learn for themselves who their parents are. It's that principle that when is lost is the injustice, not adoption in general.

One of my friends was adopted because his biological mother was incapable of caring for him. Much to her distraught she gave him away to good people, knowing that it was what was best for him, and he was more important than she. He recognises the reality of the situation and appreciates what she did. He even did a big award winning speech at school called "Adoption: The best option."

My point (or his point rather), is that the future of the child is more important that the effects on the biological parents.

[edit on 10/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:24 PM by asmeone2

reply to post by Good Wolf

I am glad to know that he found a happy home! Was he old enough to have rememberd her at all?

While everyone certainly does not benefit from knowing their parents, I personally would rather know for myself what they were like that take if from someone else, or wonder all my life. If I felt like they had abandoned me I might want the chance to confront them and ask that. That's all I was saying.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:31 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by asmeone2

No he was reallocated at birth, meaning that it was emotionally painless for him.

The thing that I think adopted people seldom realise is that whether their biological parents abandoned them or not, it was for their own good. A parent who cares so little as to abandon their child doesn't deserve one, and a child doesn't deserve growing up in a family without love.

On the flipside if the parent was incapable of looking after the child then someone else who can provide an environment where that child can prosper needs to take the child.

In both cases it's for the good of the child, but in both cases I feel the child when old enough deserves to know who his/her parents are.

Josh (my adopted mate) does know who his biological mother is and understands what she did was an act of love.

Adoption doesn't seem like abandonment but abortion certainly does, because not only is the child going to be abandoned, it's going to be disposed of.

[edit on 10/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:33 PM by asmeone2

reply to post by Good Wolf

But you acnowledge my point. It is not painless for the birth mother even if the child does have a good home. I beleive you are in NZ, perhaps it is different there, but in the USA adoption is often presented as a painless alternative to abortion, which it is not.

You edited while I was typing:

I am not promoting abortion here, I need to make that clear. I do think that as it stands adoption is the better choice, when it can be managed. I never would have taken you as PL, GW!

[edit on 10-12-2008 by asmeone2]

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:44 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by asmeone2

Pro-life? Me? No, I'm anti-senseless destruction. I look at it logically and think that abortion is unwarranted when first of all; unplanned pregnancy should be avoidable period. When that fails, a life is created that shouldn't need to be destroyed considering every life has the potential of greatness. With an abortion system in place, there seems no just reason that a child should be aborted.

I'm very conflicted on this subject. I know abortion is wrong on every level, but to take away the choice (however wrong it may be) seems wrong, too.

I think abortion should not happen because parents should understand it's wrong, not because it is law.

I guess that makes me pro-choice. And yes, I am a kiwi.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:49 PM by asmeone2

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by asmeone2

look at it logically and think that abortion is unwarranted when first of all; unplanned pregnancy should be avoidable period. When that fails, a life is created that shouldn't need to be destroyed considering every life has the potential of greatness. With an abortion system in place, there seems no just reason that a child should be aborted.

I'm very conflicted on this subject. I know abortion is wrong on every level, but to take away the choice (however wrong it may be) seems wrong, too.

I think abortion should not happen because parents should understand it's wrong, not because it is law.

That's about how I feel about it, to.

The only cases where I think it is unanimously sanctioned is when the mother's life is in danger, and high-order multiples if that is what the parents wish.

I don't like to debate people on the rights or wrongs of itbut I'm outspoken about the improvements that could be made in order to bring down abortion numbers.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 10:56 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by asmeone2

But this is where I become conflicted on the subject.

Should we preserve the choice of abortion effectively continuing the murder because it's a principle that the choice should exist?

Or should the preservation be considered more important than the principle?

Principle vs life?

My heart contradicts itself by saying they both are the most important thing.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 11:00 PM by asmeone2

reply to post by Good Wolf

It is a difficult think to think of, no matter how you cut it.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 11:05 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by asmeone2

It's a moral dilemma. The only logical escape is to focus on prevention.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 11:07 PM by asmeone2

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by asmeone2

It's a moral dilemma. The only logical escape is to focus on prevention.

In my humble opinion this is where the pro-life movement needs to snap back to reality.

If there is to be an increase in abortion, then stigma against unmarried parents and the use of contraceptives must go, and adoption laws must be loosened, not tightened in the unspoken interest of preventing gays from adopting.

If those three things are not amended, then expect abortion rates to remain level.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 11:13 PM by ThePiemaker

This is a good thread. I used to be pro-life, but I guess I'm pro-abortion now. Girl wants to kill a fetus, fine with me. I have my own moral standards and would never do that, but I don't make other people's moral decisions. They can do whatever they want. I got bigger fish to fry. I'm more worried about the conscious beings killed and tortured every day on this planet rather than some chick who gets knocked up when she shouldn't. I figure if she wants to kill her fetus, cool. Some people aren't meant to have kids, their perception of what life is about is too warped and they don't need to be passing that on to another generation of humans.

I have a lot of respect for someone like accessdenied who will take responsibility for herself and give a child an opportunity at life even if the conditions aren't ideal. I don't think it's right to make women who are unfit to be mothers feel bad about deciding to remove themselves from being responsible for their child. Adoption or Abortion are the options they should consider if they aren't fit to raise a child. but what does it mean to be "fit" or "prepared" to raise a child. personally I don't buy into most of the ideas used to justify abortion. I feel a mother is unfit if she can't love the child. that's it. if she has the love then she can be a mother. if she can't love the child, then she shouldn't raise a child.

Sometimes aborting a child might be a move made with love. That represents a flawed perception to me, but sometimes situations in this life are just too messed up. No way in hell am I or anyone else should be judging any rape victim for getting an abortion. This world's just way too cruel and situations like that don't have a right or wrong solution to them.

reply posted on 10-12-2008 @ 11:18 PM by asmeone2

Originally posted by ThePiemaker

Sometimes aborting a child might be a move made with love. That represents a flawed perception to me, but sometimes situations in this life are just too messed up. No way in hell am I or anyone else should be judging any rape victim for getting an abortion. This world's just way too cruel and situations like that don't have a right or wrong solution to them.

That is a point worth considering.

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