Adoption is not a good alternative to abortion.

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posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 07:55 AM
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Originally posted by asmeone2

While i do not doubt that some mothrs face severe depression after and abortion and I do not want to debate that,


well I guess when you take the actual valid argument FOR, then the AGAINST becomes pretty clear.
Did you think up that strategy on your own or did you pull that off some liberal website?

Are you serious? Your "research" is so ridiculously biased how could one NOT come to that conclusion? This is why so many on the "right" think you all have a learning disability, you make up our own method or arguing your point while at the same time dismissing alternatives.


Personally I am against abortion but not so far as to tell anyone what to do. It's their choice, so although I am "pro" life, I am all for choice. So take what I say as a middle roader and not a crazy from either extreme.

YOU CANNOT DISCOUNT a major portion of the other side's argument , thats just silly. You were discredited right there. Well that and the bit against it being "costly"..

$$$ Vs. emotional state. I would've thought a pro choice person (usually liberal) would have a different view on that but I guess it suits the situation here so it's ok.




posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 

Prepare to be SCHOOLED


1.The baby has to be aborted before 24 weeks in massachusetts, according to state law, I understand thats later then when the heart starts to beat. (I may be somewhat against this if this is the case I need to read about brain tissue developement then I'd make a decision) The baby's heart starts to beat at 5 weeks. Yes extremely early but you should have realized your mistake by this time, don't need to be a genius to say, "hey I just made a bad decision last night and decided to have unprotected sex(or protected still at a higher risk if birth control is not in use), maybe I should get to the hospital before this snowball rolls into an avalanche".

2. So it's ok for me to strip your ovaries down and eat those eggs then? I don't know where your trying run with that.

3. Abortion is commited in nature all the time, animals kill animals constantly. How many pregnant animal mother's are killed and therefor the baby aborted, how many eggs are robbed from nests for sustanance among other animals, how many baby animals get eaten a year because they are the easiest prey or are just killed to cleanse the pack. Yes these all may be natural causes but more babies are murdered in the wild then near anything we encounter, the human population has no quota which animals seem to have, if giving a choice of an abortion is going to control partial population for bastard pregnancies then so be it.

4. What are your feelings if a woman is raped? Should she be allowed to have an abortion then? Or should she have to go through something that was forced upon her.

5. Next time your post could do without the sass.




[edit on 11-12-2008 by Lokey13]



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 07:58 AM
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I was adopted as was my older brother. I had issues of abandonment even though I loved my adoptive family (who I consider my 'real' family) more than life itself.

When I was in my early 20's I went to the adoption agency and got all of the non-identifying info on my biological parents. I thought that would help me but it just made me more curious.

A few years later I hired a PI to find my biological mother. When I worked up the nerve to call my bio Mom I got the shock of my life. Two years after putting me up for adoption she married my biological father and eventually they had two more children. They were still married and though they hadn't told their friends or children that they had given a child up for adoption, my biological mother constantly prayed that I would find her.

I now know my biological family and have a relationship with them. It's been an emotional roller coaster ride because I wasn't looking for another family when I did my search and yet another family is basically what I got and it's hard to keep one family happy let alone two families!

Adoption is a wonderful alternative to abortion but the secrecy around closed adoptions can cause anguish for everyone involved. Not all adoptive parents could handle open adoptions but there has to be some sort of happy medium.

Jemison



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by BlackMumba
Im sick of pro abortion movements. If anyone has seen what happens during an abortion it would turn any pro abortion supporters stomach a baby is a baby at 8 weeks regardless of arguments it is fact.


they are intellectually dishonest when it comes to this.. they will NEVER view it, they won't allow themselves to see it because if they did they would have to change their views instantly and it SCARES them.

This is why they attempt to change wording from "Partial Birth Abortion" and other actual medical terms. They cannot deal with realities, they choose to candy coat it all. "Pro Choice" is in reality "Pro Death" because you are indeed terminating a life that will actually BE...

If someone (other than the doctor) were to watch a partial birth abortion I think their entire world view would change instantly.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


I know this might be a little off topic OP. But your snippet on the costs of pregnancy are astoundingly ridiculous! I mean honestly, WTH???? What is wrong in this society where even bringing a new life to this world is going to end up costing you an arm in a leg at delivery? 200,000????? Ugh, guess I'm going to have to reconsider having a child. Not because we don't want to or we don't think we're not fit to do it. But the costs associated are ridiculous! I don't know, maybe I'll just become a canadian citizen and leave here. I honestly can't stand to look at the ridiculous costs for health insureance anymore! With the way the medical system is here in the U.S. I wouldn't even want to pretend to be an illegal immigrant to get their "free healthcare" (trust me, it's junk by comparison)

To give you an idea. My aunt had some severe illness she had to take care of through months of painstaking surgery etc. The paymentwas so ridiculous, she said "You have to ask if there's a discount, because if you don't, then they won't give it to you" Yeah, she got 20% off her bill. But the point of the story, and a point my father (her brother) made was, that he was sick to his stomach of the idea that she actually had to bargain for her own health and her own life, because the system is so messed up. It really makes me worried about my and my wife's wellbeing. What ever happened to the hyppocratic oath doctors are sworn to take? Are we going to have to re-consider it being re-written so that it involves more care? It's heartless, utterly heartless

[edit on 11-12-2008 by Question]



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:28 AM
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In the end there's only one person who will make that decision maybe two if it's a couple.

The title of the thread is confusing. So you would rather be dead than have been adopted?

Some of you have this false ideal about what having a family is. I can say this because my family was, and some still are, way screwed up.

Lets see, I had to work to buy my own clothes so I worked 40hours a week, went to school, did chores, made my own food and washed my own clothes, forced to play sports, do church plays and play the clarinet (A guy should never be forced to play the clarinet it's just not cool).

This started very early in my life. My brother tried to shoot me 3 times, my mother attempted to drowned me, at 15 my mother disowned me from the family because I used god's name in vane and never spoke to me again (I was pretty happy when that happened). The list goes on and on.

Point is family is what you make it not what the parental figures in your life make it. That being said what did that screwed up childhood make me?

Independent for one I was never so glad to leave. My mom told me the day you graduate high school your kicked out of this house and not coming back. The moment I walked off the stage with my diploma I got in the car went to the airport and left 1000 miles away.

I made my life what I wanted it and could never be happier at this point. People complain about going to work and I have to laugh in the back of my head thinking "Work? bah this is the easiest money I have ever made".

When was the last time your parent said this to you, "I grounded you because your friend was naughty, I'm not punishing you I'm just punishing your friend and by grounding you he won't be able to see you."

Be carefull what you wish for because you just might get it.

Point is it's your life so do something with it.

This isn't meant as sarcasm or my life is worse blah blah blah it's just a point of live your life and don't worry about the past just enjoy the present.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:33 AM
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We're always treading on eggshells in this debate. First thing I want to say is the keynote when addressing anyone in a dilemma such as an unwanted pregnancy has to be compassion.

As to the specifics of the current debate I do feel it cannot be emphasized enough that when a pregnancy is terminated, as they say, it is very often a great deal more than a blob of jelly that is in question. A great deal. Here's a little evidence from a previous discussion:


What are people legally aborting?




reply to post by Lokey13
 



What are your feelings if a woman is raped? Should she be allowed to have an abortion then? Or should she have to go through something that was forced upon her.


This is a direct reply I offered elsewhere:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My basic premise is:


Abortion should never be permitted, as two wrongs don't make a right. Killing does not solve rape. Such children can be adopted, for example.

Perhaps it was a reading of that debate that lead to this thread focussed on adoption per se? In any case this present debate is very welcome addition.

Sidenote - the end of that other debate, on p.10, touched on the reality of what the abortion procedure can mean, and what adoption can help avoid.

Just to add that I've found the personal testimonies in here very moving.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by Darthorious
 






Some of you have this false ideal about what having a family is. I can say this because my family was, and some still are, way screwed up.


Wow. My heart goes out to you for what you have endured and I am impressed that rather than have a victim mentality as many in your shoes would, you seem to have taken charge of your life and have made wise decisions. Kudos to you!

I thought I had it rough when part of my punishment would be my Dad waking me up at 5 a.m. to weed the front yard ... and rather than do the work myself I would call a boyfriend who would ride his bike a mile to my house and do the work for me while I drank the diet coke he brought me! Actually, my Dad was a bit tougher on me than that but it was tough love, not mean or spiteful and I see why he was so hard on me and respect him immensely for it.

Jemison



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by Lokey13
Prepare to be SCHOOLED

Right back atchya.



The baby has to be aborted before 24 weeks in massachusetts, according to state law,

I have no idea if that is true or not but either way ... so what?


The baby's heart starts to beat at 5 weeks.

18 days

Brain function at 40 days.
Response movement to stimulus at 6-7 weeks.
At 11 weeks the baby is breathing.
At 13 weeks the baby can taste!

Fetal baby pictures
Note at 8 weeks old the baby has all his fingers and toes and is not 'mush'.


So it's ok for me to strip your ovaries down and eat those eggs then? I don't know where your trying run with that.

It was said here that eating eggs is the same as having an abortion of a human baby. That's totally not true.


Abortion is commited in nature all the time, animals kill animals constantly.

Animals kill animals - but animal mothers do NOT rip their children from their womb just to make life easier for themselves. Abortion is not committed in nature except by humans and usually just for selfish reasons.


What are your feelings if a woman is raped?

Do not punish the innocent child by pressuring a mother to kill her unborn child. Rape counts for a VERY SMALL statistic of abortions in this country. It is still better for a mother to just suffer the anguish of a rape rather than compound the anguish by adding murder of her child to her mental health troubles.


Next time your post could do without the sass.

Thank you for your advice, however I'll post however I feel like.


Again - adoption IS a very good alternative to murdering the child.
I know perhaps a dozen adopted people and not one of them wishes
they were murdered before birth.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:44 AM
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Has anyone brought up surrogate mothers yet? That is a planned adoption from the get go. If I am correct, sometimes a fertilized embryo from the intended parents is implanted in the surrogate mother. I have read of surrogate mothers who were unwilling to give up the child they carried to term in their womb. I think there have even been legal cases on the issue. Iirc, the intended parents end up with the child.



In traditional surrogacies, the surrogate mother provides the egg, and the intended father, or a donor, provides the sperm. Those arrangements sometimes go awry, as in the famous Baby M case in which the surrogate mother refused to give up the child; in 1988, the New Jersey Supreme Court awarded custody to the child's biological father, with visitation rights to the surrogate mother.

In gestational surrogacies like Murray's, the egg and sperm belong to the intended parents and are inserted through in vitro fertilization into the uterus of the surrogate mother, who has no genetic bond with the fetus.

source


That said, I believe abortion is a very poor alternative to abstinence. Abortion is murder. Rape and incest compound the issue, as choice is not involved on the part of the mother. In all other cases, I say, "Don't do the deed if you don't want the seed."



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:50 AM
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Too bad we can’t interview any of those little aborted fetuses to ask them if they think adoption is preferable to death.

I suppose that could be two sentences if I butchered it all up but I'll leave it be just like that.




posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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Of course the abortion providers and supporters are against adoption. Adoption flys in the face of their arguement that the "fetus" is just a mass of tissue that has no meaning. If adoption is a viable alternative, they have to admit that the "fetus" is a human being.

I would not suggest that anyone try to tell my wife that adoption is not a good alternative to abortion. Her birth mother tried to get an abortion, but couldn't. So, my wife was born and put up for adoption.

Her adoptive parents could have no more children (her mother had an ectopic pregnancy and had to undergo an hysterectomy). She went to a loving home, where she was treated in every respect as if she were their natural daughter.

The crap that mothers never recover from giving up their child is just that, crap.

Your whole piece is nothing but propaganda for the abortion industry.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 08:59 AM
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I personally would never get an abortion, I was very careful to practice safe sex before I was married and once I was done having my children I had a tubal ligation. My own choice and what I thought best for me.

I don't judge people that have had abortions or have given their children up for adoption. One of my sisters gave away two children to the same family when she was a teenager and while she has had no contact with them she does know that bother her babies are together and loved.

On the other hand I knew a girl when I was about 20 who had 4 abortions in a 2 year period. At what point do you tell her that she has to stop using abortion as birth control? Or do you let her have her kids and force her to be a parent? I haven't seen or talked to her in nearly 20 years but I read on Facebook (the devil! LOL) that she has 5 kids now that she has no longer has custody of and that she was a former drug addict and prostitute when she had 3 of those babies.

I think I also remember seeing on a docu that kangaroos could abort a fetus if the mother perceived danger and needed to flee.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:05 AM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


You are not "right."

The affect on the Mother who brought the baby to conception vastly pales to the affect of the aborted child.

I pray for your soul. You will need it.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:22 AM
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Hi everyone! I just joined today but i have been reading ATS for a while now. Love the site!
Anyway I was adopted when I was a week old, I could have never in my wildest dreams asked for a more caring and loving family. My mother was " She passed away a few years ago" and still is the best person I have ever had the privilege of knowing. A great Father as well as a really good brother and sister were also part of the family. I was the first kid and then my parents had my brother and sister as natural children. I have wondered about my natural family and who they are a few times but thats it. I am not so bold as to join and have my first post be a flame, rather I just wanted to show what a great thing adoption was for me and I am so glad my natural mother loved me enough to have me and not abort.

Carry on



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:24 AM
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You know, I have to agree that a majority (if not all) mothers who give their children up for adoption don't get over it.

How do I know? Well, I'm adopted and so is my brother (non biological). My parents refused to tell us this tid bit of information until my biological mother contacted me.

She spent years trying stalking me lol. Sounds creepy but hey, we got in touch, met and now hold a very healthy and strong friendship. I also have a little biological brother I never ever knew about!!! He's pretty rad too I may add.

The fact is, the most difficult thing to do in life is giving up your child. I stared at my mother in the eyes all the way til she gave me to my adoptive parents. She couldn't stop crying and you know, if she was over it, she wouldn't have contacted me. Along with thousands and thousands of mothers contacting their lost children.

Good post OP, good post.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


Against what many people here feel, services need to be provided so more people are capable of keeping a baby.

If a lot of people had their way, there would be no abortion, no contraceptives at school, no wic or medicaid. So you have to have a baby and make it.

You can't have it all folks.

What needs to be done is like the PP, the reason for unplanned pregnancies need to be addressed, not the final solution.
Most teenage pregnancies have had abuse in their lifetime. They have lousy parents and basically an unhappy home. And no sex education.
There need to be ready access to birth control. Most people live more then 20 miles to a clinic. A 15 yo on the down low has no way of getting there.

A lot more education needs to be provided about abusive relationships. Most likely a teenage girl from a broken home seeks these out, not knowing how real love is supposed to be.

But in the case someone wasn't reached, a safe haven needs to be provided, including daycare and job training.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by gormly

Originally posted by BlackMumba
Im sick of pro abortion movements. If anyone has seen what happens during an abortion it would turn any pro abortion supporters stomach a baby is a baby at 8 weeks regardless of arguments it is fact.


they are intellectually dishonest when it comes to this.. they will NEVER view it, they won't allow themselves to see it because if they did they would have to change their views instantly and it SCARES them.

This is why they attempt to change wording from "Partial Birth Abortion" and other actual medical terms. They cannot deal with realities, they choose to candy coat it all. "Pro Choice" is in reality "Pro Death" because you are indeed terminating a life that will actually BE...

If someone (other than the doctor) were to watch a partial birth abortion I think their entire world view would change instantly.





I agree 100%



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


Thanks for that, a lot of people think a fetus is just "mush" when in fact at 8 weeks it isn't , but that's an excuse many pro abortion supporters use because then they don't have to face the facts or deal with their murdering ways.



posted on Dec, 11 2008 @ 09:54 AM
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An excellent post Asme


As a single mother I had a few scares with my daughter when she hit 17. She never had her father around and fell right into the absent father routine easily (despite out talking about the syndrome and the effects of it).

It seemed she was damn determined to get herself pregnant.

We sat down and we talked about some very serious stuff. Some of which you pointed out here. It was an eye opening experience for me (and her).

I was shocked by how little of my teaching about safe sex, responsibility, love and the rampant hormones of youth, actually mattered to her when she first formulated this whole romantic notion of being a pregnant teen.

We talked about MANY things. it was a hard conversation but had to be done.

I was brutally frank with her about the effects on the people around her and the repercussions of keeping the baby. And about giving it up.

This is what I pointed out to her. It only takes two people to create a child. It takes literally hundreds to raise it. There were people who would have to factor in that she hadn't even considered. Impacts that she hadn't considered.

We talked about abortion and the effects of that. I have never had an abortion so I had her talk to my friend who had. A woman now in her 50's who had both abortion and given up a child up for adoption. It was eye opening for both of us.

In the end it turned out she wasn't pregnant (thank frank), and I am hoping that now she if she decides to have kids she'll remember all that she learned and do her best to ensure she's having a child with the very best intentions, not just for herself...but for all of the people who will be involved in that child's immediate future.

It's such a hard topic for people to discuss an generates many passions and fears for both sides of the argument.

I believe it's a woman's choice over all - for someone else to dictate that a woman be forced to carry a child to term as a means of "punishment" for having gotten pregnant in the first place is a ridiculous premise.

Abortion is a devastating event. There is no way around this. The woman's physical and mental state suffer.

However the effect of having a child under any kind of "forced" (be it social pressure, legal pressure, religious pressure etc etc) is a far worse fate for mother and child. There are so many other people who can be negatively impacted as well depending on circumstances by the "joyous" event.

My mother and her brother and sisters were put up for adoption. They were adopted out and suffered at the hands of the people who adopted them.

My friend who is in her 50's - put her son up for adoption and he had a wonderful life. The abortion she had she never forgot, but at the time it really was her best choice. The pain of giving up her son (in spite of his good success) remains and it's very hard for her.

My BF was given up and raised by his grands - a good but still difficult life being raised by people well past the age to have a rambunctious little boy dismantling their house


There are more points but I'm on my way out


I support choice. It is such a personal issue and so very defendant on individual circumstance that for a society to even try to put generalized "conditions" on the issue is extremely wrong.





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