Christians need to face the facts!

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by pieman

 

So often i hear so called "real christians" or "true christians" slaging off others beliefs, an example being the Latter day Saints.
Time and again various christians claim LDS to be a cult or not "Real" etc, but when they're asked if they've ever gone to a LDS service or actually read the book of Mormon the answer is allways no but I've been told about them.

I find it quite retarded for a religious person for example, calling the writings of let's say Richard Dawkins the work of the enemy or other childish frases. Without actually reading a single word of what he's written or ever watching just one of his documentaries.

It is certainly cult like behaviour to allow some pastor, priest, book or prophet dictate to an individual how to think by using reverse psychology etc.

[edit on 8-12-2008 by moocowman]

You're totally missing what Christianity is. You're looking at it from the perspective of it being a religion. A religion implies a set number of hail Mary cries, or going to church every Sunday and Wednesday. That's not Christianity.

Christianity is faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior of mankind, belief that He is the true Son of God, died on the cross, and rose again defeating death, as He was and is God and man. Understanding of everything else comes to one after they accept this fact.

I've read the Book of Mormon before, and it's total rubbish. It contradicts the Bible. It's premise is that it corrects mistakes in the Bible; however God doesn't make mistakes. That said, the "tablets of gold" used to translate said book were debunked by an Egyptologist, but that info is pretty hard to find as the LDS has suppressed it. Here's Mormonism in a nutshell. It totally contradicts my beliefs in the Bible. The Book of Mormon is NOT the Bible.
www.youtube.com...

On your Richard Dawkins comment, it is more that most people believe in creation by a loving God when they are truly a Christian in faith. Religious practices may vary, but the faith in Jesus should not.

And before you jump in and say it's polytheism, it's not. We don't understand the spiritual realm; however we do know that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are both separate entities and one entity, the Godhead all at the same time.

I would argue that yes it is cult like to let a pope or pastor control how you live. Furthermore, the Bible doesn't really count as a random book, like the ones by Dr. Phil or Oprah that use reverse psychology to influence people's lives. In regard to letting a prophet do such a thing, Jesus wasn't just a prophet, so that doesn't count. I think that holds him again above Oprah or Dr. Phil, who basically try to be prophets themselves.

[edit on 8-12-2008 by joesomebody]

Originally posted by joesomebody
You're totally missing what Christianity is. You're looking at it from the perspective of it being a religion. A religion implies a set number of hail Mary cries, or going to church every Sunday and Wednesday. That's not Christianity.

Christianity is faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior of mankind, belief that He is the true Son of God, died on the cross, and rose again defeating death, as He was and is God and man. Understanding of everything else comes to one after they accept this fact.

I've read the Book of Mormon before, and it's total rubbish. It contradicts the Bible. It's premise is that it corrects mistakes in the Bible; however God doesn't make mistakes. That said, the "tablets of gold" used to translate said book were debunked by an Egyptologist, but that info is pretty hard to find as the LDS has suppressed it. Here's Mormonism in a nutshell. It totally contradicts my beliefs in the Bible. The Book of Mormon is NOT the Bible.
www.youtube.com...

On your Richard Dawkins comment, it is more that most people believe in creation by a loving God when they are truly a Christian in faith. Religious practices may vary, but the faith in Jesus should not.

And before you jump in and say it's polytheism, it's not. We don't understand the spiritual realm; however we do know that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are both separate entities and one entity, the Godhead all at the same time.

I would argue that yes it is cult like to let a pope or pastor control how you live. Furthermore, the Bible doesn't really count as a random book, like the ones by Dr. Phil or Oprah that use reverse psychology to influence people's lives. In regard to letting a prophet do such a thing, Jesus wasn't just a prophet, so that doesn't count. I think that holds him again above Oprah or Dr. Phil, who basically try to be prophets themselves.

[edit on 8-12-2008 by joesomebody]

Star for you Joe ....everything you said I totally agree with ...
Sorry for the one liner but I have nothing to add ..I think you said everything that needed to be said ..well done ..

reply to post by moocowman


first, yeah i read the article, i understood it as a piece about how mother theresa struggled with her faith but never lost it. okay, interesting. i really don't know much about the woman but i find it reassuring that she had doubts.

your idea that christians have trouble addressing counter points to their faith is pretty ignorant.

an important part of christianity is something called the passion of christ, this is the story of the capture, trial and crucifiction of jesus.

it starts with an apostle that loses faith in christ, to later regain it. the favored apostle of christ denies him on three separate occasions. few of the apostles are at jesus' death. jesus himself has a crisis of faith on the cross. the apostles then lose all faith and run off to hide until the holy spirit renews it.

the reality is, despite what you believe, that questioning ones faith is central to christianity and always has been. untested faith is often described as untempered steel. good, but ultimately lacking.

so, i ask you, if it is retarded to critisise dawkins without reading his book, isn't it just as "retarded" to critisise christianity without even the most basic understanding of it?

[edit on 8/12/08 by pieman]

Originally posted by Incarnated
One of these days soon Christians are going to have to be brave enough to face the Truth. They are going to have to make adjustments to their false faith to make it more realisticly based.

Great. Now we got the Urantians getting in on the "lets recycle the copycat hypothesis" bandwagon. As if this wasn't refuted 85 years ago...

The facts that christians need to face is that the Jews stole many of their "holy writings" from the sumerians and then to back date the Jews as a people they spun the taken writings and put them in nationalistic and self grandizing documents that they felt were the leadings of God.

Here are some already written articles on borrowing in the Bible. They shoud serve - provided of course that you actually READ them - to B-slap the notion the Jews borrowed JACK from the Summerians or anyone else.

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

The facts that christians need to face is that Paul and the early chruch fathers, to make the story of jesus more acceptable to the masses of the day and future generations, took great liberties in spinning well known and accepted mythologies of the time and sprinkeled those well known mythological stories upon the unseasoned story of Jesus.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. www.tektonics.org... ----------- which has links to articles on Mithras, Horus, Zoraster and every other ancient deity detailing how SCHOLARS say no such borrowing occured.

Now can we PLEASE put this crap to rest???

reply to post by Incarnated


There is the possibility that the Sumerian creation stories may have been based on the Hebrew's ancestors living in Sumer. They took the oral stories of the Hebrew's ancestors and slightly altered them to fit their ethnic society. The names of the Sumerian gods translate into the names of Noah and his family. As a child Abram who would be called Abraham attended the school run by Shem and Eber. Shem was one of the sons of Noah.

I dont know too much about Mother Theresa ..but I know she was Catholic(wait dont get upset yet ) ...IF she prayed to Mary and thought she was the mediator between God and man (Instead of Christ) or if she thought the Pope was the Vicar of Christ etc etc ...then certainly she may have been doubtful of her salvation..
There is only ONE mediator between God and man and that is through his son JESUS CHRIST ...But hey Theresa may have figured some things out in the very end and she may have found the true path to salvation through Jesus Christ and may have found peace within before her death ...Or so I pray she did ...

Even the bible is clear that you cannot earn your way into heaven (maybe she thought she could ..maybe the Pope even taught that you could (not sure on that one because I am not Catholic) ... ..and all the good works you do will not be enough to get you salvation ...or eternal life .....because our good works are as filthy rags anyway ...(we are supposed to do good works ...but dont think you can earn your way ..because you cannot ) ......

I dont know if Theresa had ever even been born again ...(I did not know her) But I would say if she thought she had become born again by accepting Mary as her co redeemer instead of Christ ..I would say she had not been truly born again ..
And you must be born again ...
If she was truly born again ..surely the Lord would have showed her her error in the Mary and Pope thing ....at least I would believe that to be so .

I know the Holy Spirit within me points out all errors to me as I live my life ..I hear his voice ..I feel the convictions ..I have dreams of my errors etc etc ...I read stuff in the word that points things out to me of where I am in error etc ....Thats what the whole purpose of the Holy Spirit residing in you is ..So you will find out all TRUTHS ...and be able to walk the way we are supposed to be walking ......


PS >..this is really just my opinion according to what I believe the word says ..And I am not saying for sure this was the case with Theresa because I did not know her personally and I did not know her heart either ...
So if your going to flame ..please flame lightly ...lol....it really is just a measly 2 cents that may not be worth anything ....

nevermind

[edit on 8/12/08 by pieman]

I say "stop christian bashing". I am awake, and dont really believe the stories that you've read, more thatn the stories ive read...If you think youve awaken and want to share your experience great, but just saying...i am paraphrasing here...wake up your being duped...isnt good enough, state some sources- besides discovery channel. Ive just finished reading about Council of Nicea and what happened and why, I am not saying ive read it all, but to me its a little better than "i heard about some ancient manuscripts and you should believe me." As far as I am concerned the bible starts with the beginning as handed down generation, to generation-could be from ancient sumaria, doesnt mean its not true. There are more facts of the bible proven by archealogy than disproven imo, than to take your word on face value. Ill keep studying, as should you...cuz I am no expert by any means, but I would much rather prove the word of GOD to be right than wrong. I am not closed minded to a logical argument. If this is directed towards "organized religion" thats something completely different than "Christianity" imo I as a christian strive to be "Christ like" meaning I accept people for who they are, and what they believe, I try not to judge people based on their beliefs, I try to love everyone, for their individuality. I try not to judge a whole group of people, cuz i just saw an episode on Discover channel that was really believable...try again

Christianity is supposed to be based on the examples and testimony of Jesus Christ. His life, His words to put it simple. The confusion comes from people who will use anything to obtain their means, the Catholic church included. If there was only a remnant way back then what does that say about now.

What example, legacy will you leave for people and or your own offspring. My guess is the next thing the world would like to do is take the word virtue from the dictionary, after all, they think that is obsolete also.

reply to post by Siren


Actually the religion of the man "Jesus Christ" is the more required understanding over all dogma and belief systems.

That makes YOU a chosen son of God if you'd only be willing to accept sonship through faith, and in so doing step upon the road of self improvement as your personal salvation and assurance that you'll be able to walk the walk. This would include realization that all mankind is your brotherhood, and you should through your reach for self perfection try to be a little more loving and care more about your fellows.

reply to post by joesomebody
You're totally missing what Christianity is. You're looking at it from the perspective of it being a religion. A religion implies a set number of hail Mary cries, or going to church every Sunday and Wednesday. That's not Christianity.

So are you saying christianity is not a religion ?




I've read the Book of Mormon before, and it's total rubbish. It contradicts the Bible. It's premise is that it corrects mistakes in the Bible; however God doesn't make mistakes. That said, the "tablets of gold" used to translate said book were debunked by an Egyptologist, but that info is pretty hard to find as the LDS has suppressed it. Here's Mormonism in a nutshell. It totally contradicts my beliefs in the Bible. The Book of Mormon is NOT the Bible.
www.youtube.com...

According to you the book of Mormon contradicts the bible, it may well do but it is a pointless charge when the bibles themselves are full of contradictions. So you insist your right and the Mormons claim they're right based on contradictory scrriptures written by men.

On your Richard Dawkins comment, it is more that most people believe in creation by a loving God when they are truly a Christian in faith. Religious practices may vary, but the faith in Jesus should not.

My comment on Dawkins was pretty clear, many religious types will criticise his work without ever bothering to even look. Christianity given its' way would have me live like a christian, at the very least I would consider where it's coming from, I don't find its' literature very persuasive but at least I try to become informed and have my own opinion.

And before you jump in and say it's polytheism, it's not. We don't understand the spiritual realm; however we do know that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are both separate entities and one entity, the Godhead all at the same time.

Polytheism has been done over and over, it only makes any sense to a fundamentalisty christian the rest of the world finds it quite ludicrous.

I would argue that yes it is cult like to let a pope or pastor control how you live. Furthermore, the Bible doesn't really count as a random book, like the ones by Dr. Phil or Oprah that use reverse psychology to influence people's lives. In regard to letting a prophet do such a thing, Jesus wasn't just a prophet, so that doesn't count. I think that holds him again above Oprah or Dr. Phil, who basically try to be prophets themselves.

Don't know how Dr Phil or Oprah fit in dude. When a pastor or preacher insists that to act this way or that because that is how he interprates a book and those who don't will be killed that is prettty much a cult. Jesus was not the only prophet mentioned in the bible and i was initially refering to prophets genrally.


Sorry about the same text I haven't quite got the hang of splitting up the post.








[edit on 8-12-2008 by moocowman]

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by moocowman

 

first, yeah i read the article, i understood it as a piece about how mother theresa struggled with her faith but never lost it. okay, interesting. i really don't know much about the woman but i find it reassuring that she had doubts.

your idea that christians have trouble addressing counter points to their faith is pretty ignorant.

an important part of christianity is something called the passion of christ, this is the story of the capture, trial and crucifiction of jesus.

it starts with an apostle that loses faith in christ, to later regain it. the favored apostle of christ denies him on three separate occasions. few of the apostles are at jesus' death. jesus himself has a crisis of faith on the cross. the apostles then lose all faith and run off to hide until the holy spirit renews it.

the reality is, despite what you believe, that questioning ones faith is central to christianity and always has been. untested faith is often described as untempered steel. good, but ultimately lacking.

so, i ask you, if it is retarded to critisise dawkins without reading his book, isn't it just as "retarded" to critisise christianity without even the most basic understanding of it?

[edit on 8/12/08 by pieman]

It is one thing to not understand something, it is another to not try to.

When my ISP sold me broadband I read the contract inside out and made sure it was clear and without error, I personally think a smart thing to do.
If I chose to turn down the deal because someone who has never used this provider, had heard from someone that they read in an ancient manuscript of unknown authors who had not read the contract, that the provider was crap, now that is pretty retarded.

If it is such a good thing to question ones faith then why not start from the begining and ask simple questions of the bible like where is the evidence for it being the word of god.

Why are there so many contradictions and errors in this book that is supposed to be the word of god.

If only god is good why would he/it/she act in such a way that is totally repugnant to many decent human beings so much so that if this entity was a relative, they would be ashamed for his/her/its actions, that they themselves would never even consider commiting.

I loved the puzzle description, a perfect example.

... The letters, many of them preserved against her wishes (she had requested that they be destroyed but was overruled by her church), reveal that for the last nearly half-century of her life she felt no presence of God whatsoever

The closer one draws to the true God, the more silent the world becomes. Jesus said: "Blessed are the POOR in spirit". Jesus also said: "you know not whom you worship".

Those who control, know that they are controlling, but, most of those that are captive do not have understanding to know. If one is born in captivity and has been living as a captive, he does not necessarily know it to be that. However, when freed, one will take a closer look at all that transpired before freedom came. This is the revelation.

Those serving two masters, double-minded, wanting to be loved by the world and afraid of persecution, rejection, sit on the in between and are lost..

reply to post by Incarnated


That makes YOU a chosen son of God if you'd only be willing ...

I am chosen and blessed and the world knows that I live by God's grace, flaws and all.

reply to post by Siren


That's well and good, but, are you willing to do the work? To accend into the higher states, one needs be found willing to alow the will of the father to change them so that they will fit within The Will of God rather then the Will of the Creature.

Hello all,

Just some personal thought on this...

I do find alot of spiritual growth through the Bible as well as many other materials. I do try my best to live as I feel Christ showed us to live...but its a whole other understanding to me to brake from the material chains and venture into being an instrument for God.

To be an instrument for Thee...the books hold one back from this. If you are convinced that some things can ONLY work a certain way because God said so in a book (for example, the statement was made that Mother Teresa might have not been saved since she didnt accept Jesus as her Savior) then you are limiting the possibilities of God.

Again, I do claim myself as someone that feels I am of his body and his blood is my blood...which makes me and the Father one. BUT...many regress for the teachings of the OT and are not careful to not allow this idea of a separate special land to evolve for a better mankind and a better world that has a part in this Universe. We are to unite in a peaceful way, we should act as if we are a ONE in this world, so we can live as a ONE in the Universe and the Heavens.

I would love to claim myself as a Christian, for the word Christian claims they are followers of Christ. But as soon as I present my 'truths' as different, then I get bashed for not being a true follower. I feel a true follower will become a instrument for Thee and see that our purpose is much bigger then a secound coming or a claiming of a certain land. We are not only to perfect ourselves but we are also to have hope in perfecting this planet. Many think that God made the Universe for US. What about God made US for the Universe. We get caught up in our individuality because of our experience in separate bodies...but we are all ONE. This is the ticket, this is the bigger picture. If you dont like what you see in another...the trick for your righteousness is to ....FORGIVE that lost soul in his or her works, for they do not know what they do. Forgive them and love them.

I would never ever say that someone like Mother Teresa might of not gone to Heaven because she didnt believe in Christ being her savior. Her works step above that...her works were God like. I dont think God was waiting on her to accept any certain belief, God was already working through her.

Peace to all,
LV

reply to post by Incarnated


I totally agree that the OT stories of creation up to the flood was of foriegn origin, such as the Sumerians. After this, the Hebrews took beliefs out of Egypt, Babylon and Cannon and applied them to their own full circle of life.
It doesn't make it untrue...but one should study these things to get a better idea of WHY these things were important for us to know. Many things can be symbolic and not literal.

If I may add to what my personal journy has led me to for the other readers of the thread.....

Christ taught in parables, to think that God wasn't doing the same thing thousands of yrs. ago by working through these different civilizations and making sure that certain teachings reached its way to the GREAT BOOK of all times would be underestimating Thee.

If everything that God intended us to know was black and white...his highest embodiment as a human would not of came and taught us in parables. There is a wisdom to what is taught and that wisdom might reach different people in different ways.

To take the lonely road away from materials can be scary because mankind has made you to think its WRONG and UNJUST. But soon, (very soon) one realizes, you are not alone, for the angels and God and Christ are all there awaiting to lead you. You are worthy to Thee to be an instrument and to learn through the Holy Spirit....the purpose in this path is different, its not about your own salvation or your own savior...its understanding we are all of Thee...the purpose becomes WORLDLY and UNIVERSAL. The ego convinces us that we are individuals. YOU AND THE FATHER CAN BE ONE. This is not individuality, sorry to say. The flesh you live in is a paradox in itself.

Peace to all,
LV

Originally posted by Incarnated
reply to post by Siren

 

Actually the religion of the man "Jesus Christ" is the more required understanding over all dogma and belief systems.

That makes YOU a chosen son of God if you'd only be willing to accept sonship through faith, and in so doing step upon the road of self improvement as your personal salvation and assurance that you'll be able to walk the walk. This would include realization that all mankind is your brotherhood, and you should through your reach for self perfection try to be a little more loving and care more about your fellows.

Sounds kind of new age-ish, to be honest and is actually quite the opposite of what Jesus taught. What you are telling people focuses on them and their desires.

John 4:23 "For the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." (notice the "and TRUTH"... didn't see you say that. and the point was NOT for personal salvation but rather it was to bring ppl back to the Father who desired pure hearts grounded in truth.)

Also, these claims that the Old Testament is just a bunch of hogwash, but the new testament is not, does NOT correspond with the message Jesus taught. Let's take a look, shall we?
John 5: 46-47 "For had ye believed in Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
What you are saying is in direct violation of what he said and in fact, chances are, you also would have been told the same thing.

You are talking of a salvation that glorifies self. You speak against G-d and yet you claim to know the man that most refer to as the son of G-d.

I am betting you aren't even aware of the verse that says "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not unto thine own understanding." You are violating this principle when you claim that you do believe in the Jesus who is supposed to be OF the G-d of the old testament but you deny the very reason his coming was supposed to be about.

Am I really the ONLY one who has studied enough to realize this makes absolutely NO SENSE???



[edit on 8-12-2008 by justamomma]

[edit on 8-12-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma
your statement

You are guilty of projecting your misperception of my words as fact. If you had actually read what was written instead of projecting misunderstanding upon my words you'd not have misresponded to my statements. That's a plank you have in your eye.

Originally posted by Incarnated

Originally posted by justamomma
your statement

You are guilty of projecting your misperception of my words as fact. If you had actually read what was written instead of projecting misunderstanding upon my words you'd not have misresponded to my statements. That's a plank you have in your eye.

So then that means you have removed that mote from your eye, correct? If so, then it is your responsibility to tell me where I am misinterpreting what it is you have said and set me straight. I wouldn't mind at all. Please, do explain