Christians need to face the facts!

Originally posted by HugmyRek
reply to post by Incarnated

 

Oh, please, not at Christmas...regardless of all the hate and subversion and attempts at conversion, please, not at another's holy day, no matter the grievance or how hard it is to make it through without feeling it.

Nice bit of poetry coming along there, shame you couldn't think of somethign to rhyme with grievence

Prove even one word of what you claim.

The Summerians believed in amny Gods, the Jews believed (and still do believe) in one God. But almost all religions have some story about the birth of the world, the making of mankind, a story of a flood, etc. All were an attempt to explain the unexplaniable to mankind.

Similarities between stories of one faith system and another - so what?

Did Paul change the early Christian church - Yes, he opened it up to people that were not Jews. Most of the Apostles wanted to restrict it to being a Jewish sect, not for Gentiles. But Paul convinced Peter, and the rest of the Apostles that Christ's message was for everyone.

Did he change the story of Christ? No!

You can denigrate Christianity to your hearts content. All you are really trying to do is provoke arguement.

Originally posted by SvenTheBerserK
Could both of you instead of behaving like 5yr old children please provide some evidence to support your arguments?

To defend crmanager, I think he actually is 5 years old.
He has invested so much into religion that for him to EVER
be wrong could cause him to downward spiral.

P.S. Santa is not real.

"I don't hate Christians. I just hate what they do."

I guess you hated Mother Theresa, and what she did,

I guess you hateed Pope John Paul II, and what he did.

I guess you hate Christians that give up their own lives to feed and clothe the poor.

Strange that you do not attack other religions, ones that justify the murder of girls and women for wanting to learn to read; or religions that mutilate girls and women; or religions that encourage the murder of people that do not believe in the correct way.

No, you just attack Christians.

I wonder what behavior you atre engaging in that is not approved by the Bible? Behavior that you feel horrible about, so you turn your self hatred around and attack the Christian religion.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Yes, Paul as the father of Christianity used a lot of his Gnostic beliefs to add to his mythology of Christianity.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]

I dunno, personally I like Paul.
Jesus and Paul are the only 2 guys I really like reading from the N.T.

It would seem that Paul is misunderstood, however. Suppose from a Judaic (mystic) perspective...things become a bit more clear. (At least some portions.)

Peace

dAlen

Originally posted by crmanager
reply to post by Incarnated
Christianity wouldn't be such a retarded religion if it delt in more facts and less fiction.

What facts like jesus was born on the 25th dec when it was a pagan feast celebrating the rebirth of the SUN , the sun which died on the solstice and was reborn 3 days later ( easters origins! ) on the 25th which resulted in great feasting! Christianity is a complete sham based on lies from the word go. Why can you not see this? because without this lie you would have nothing to turn to as the answer for everything.

Originally posted by OldMedic
Prove even one word of what you claim.

The Summerians believed in amny Gods, the Jews believed (and still do believe) in one God.

That is a can of worms right there...only God knows where to begin.
Suffice it to say, Christians would do themselves justice to actually learn Judaism.
(Preferably from a Chassidic Rabbi if they can.) There are a lot of assumptions they have about Judaism that would quickly fade away...and surprise them...if they did.

"Seek and you will find - when you search with ALL your heart."
(not in the confines of ones own dogma...or denomination.)

Peace

dAlen

As expected, this thread has devolved into baseless name calling. I don't care if it "tis the season" or not. Some intelligent discussion once in awhile is good for the soul, no matter what time of year it is. Try it, you might like it.

reply to post by Incarnated

Originally posted by Incarnated
The facts that christians need to face is that the Jews stole many of their "holy writings" from the sumerians and then to back date the Jews as a people they spun the taken writings and put them in nationalistic and self grandizing documents that they felt were the leadings of God.

Interesting opinion, although it isn’t the first time I’ve seen it here on ATS. Are the Chinese and Japanese creation myths also rip off of the Sumerians or is it just the Christian and Jewish religions? How about the U.S. Native American myths, are they rip offs too?

The facts that christians need to face is that Paul and the early chruch fathers, to make the story of jesus more acceptable to the masses of the day and future generations, took great liberties in spinning well known and accepted mythologies of the time and sprinkeled those well known mythological stories upon the unseasoned story of Jesus.

Another interesting opinion, and once again not original. It all depends on your point of view, I say po-ta-to you say po-tat-o.

Until then the christians fail to rise above their own conspiracies in religion.

How about we just let the Christians find truth on their own? Most of the people who post here that call themselves Christians are not formally religious, but are spiritual. Most are seeking truth spiritually and although I know you mean well, I’d rather find spiritual truth through God rather than man.

instead of just saying that incarnated is wrong, why don't you do some research? You'll more than likely arrive at the same conclusion incarnated did.

Great post incarnated.

OP, I actually disagree WHOLLY with your spiritual new age bs.

IF I wanted to be a powerful nation, respected, and feared, I would do what America has done and hide the "dirty spots" in my history. All other nations and in fact gods did this very same thing... hid their atrocities. Israel would have loved to have done that thing and actually, they tried to. It was exposed THROUGH the Bible. It is clearly there in the Scriptures that the Jews can be very stingy, sneaky, self loving, and yes.. nationalistic. To expose that is to show the enemy your plan thus allowing the enemy to cut you down much more easily.

Funny (ironic) thing is, He allowed Israel to have their way....... they could do it on their own and in their way with their other gods. But if you notice, first He scattered them again. If they were going to do it on their own, they must start from the beginning (namely having no land of their own).

Watch... He is allowing for them to come back on their own accord. The state of Israel is obviously wrong and all one has to do is look at how it has come about. Is it G-d supporting them? No. They have figured out a way to silence G-d (or so they think) by teaching this crap called spiritualism and christians have fallen for it hook line and sinker; not all, just like not all the Jews have decided to follow their fellow Jews into deceipt and manipulation to show they are the gods. Just look at most ppl. They hate god, but it isn't G-d... it is the god that was painted for you. They have manipulated Jesus' teaches to make you think that god is you. You are here for god (self)... nothing more.

And again, watch and see... He is going to let them think they had their day and set up their kingdom to self and this certain sect will come out of the shadows and "rule" over everyone... for a time. Then G-d will come and destroy Satan, who is "self" in the flesh. He will show that He is the One true G-d and He will have kept his Word in using Israel to show the world that He is the one true God and the world WILL bow down before Him and those Jews that and gentiles that were lost will see .. they will WANT to follow the true God who created both heaven and earth.

Then He will set up a new Jerusalem and peace will be with all who live there because they will have NO DOUBTS who the true G-d is and what He has done and why He has done it and then allowed for it.

The Bible, the WHOLE picture (and not just pieces of it manipulated and misconstrued) shows that G-d is NOT a respector of persons and that He used the Jews, the beasts (sorry, but that is what they were known as before G-d made the covenent with Abraham) to show Himself to all the world in all of His love which yes, does show mercy, but HIS mercy is perfectly balanced with justice.... which makes us realize, ours is not. THAT is the story of the Bible. =)~

So go ahead and let your little inner light shine with all of its might. If this all plays out, you will take a fall as well, though certainly not as hard as the ones who are dishing out the deceptions that you are eating up. They will be punished more severly than you.

I make no declaration as to what anyone NEEDS to believe. The fact is, there is not a single person who won't one day know. If it is man in all his achievements, time will tell. If it is man who evolves into some mass collective spirit of oneness, time will tell. If it is one G-d, I have no doubts that not only WILL time tell, but He will make sure as to NOT leave His creation with any doubts about where and who they came from and how easily we are to manipulate and be led astray. It is a brilliant plan and by far, much more brilliant than the way of the "aliens" (speaking of all these ppl who are passing along the plans the aliens have.. it obviously is a joke) or our "finding" our light within us... I mean, how many times can we evolve... once experience is gone, then what? What do you have left?

In a sense, I see us as a game. Some of us were made to honor and some were made to dishonor and some were made "wonder" and choose. In this way, NO ONE would be left to doubt as to what the Truth is. Not the opposing and not the ones who drift between the opposites.

Again though, I don't think you HAVE to believe the Bible is an expose' on how G-d is going to show that He IS above you and that you are only being allowed to believe YOU can accomplish things in and of yourself so that you will see the error in self worship.

You WERE given the freedom to believe that it will only be enlightenment within yourself that frees you from the pain and misery of this world and that you will one day be as a god because, after all, god is in you.

Can you imagine though? If the first perspective is right? If you are one day held like an insect in the grips of G-d and realized at that moment that He wasn't you, and that He didn't dwell inside of you as a light to show you your inner god? If we are in His image, than your way would be the like the image in my mirror suddenly saying "wait, I am you. You are inside me and if I just find that you in me, than I can get on your side of the mirror. My image CAN NOT do that.... it ONLY exists if I am standing in front of that mirror.... it is an image... it is not ME! I am not saying we don't exist, but we will only ever exist in so much as we are being allowed to exist. If you don't do it the way the Controller of our existence says, then He has the right to walk away and take away your existence. You make that choice and the mercy is that right now, He is letting you still exist whilst you think that you exist for you and that you can do it your way so that you can see how foolish you really are. (this is all hypothetical btw, so don't get too offended, because there is no reason for offense if it I am not right).

Let me paint a picture of how I view us. We were given this beautifully completed picture and placed into it. As we walked around, we started thinking that "this" should be like "that" and put that piece over there.... "hey painter, you messed up". So, G-d being the loving G-d, decided to let us rearrange the picture. He cut it up into puzzle pieces (since we can't create) and scattered them... all of it and then placed some on pieces that were foreign to them. Suddenly, all of our ideas of how it should be got mixed in with one another and we couldn't figure out how to piece it together to make it fit while maintaining our perfect way.. we started arguing over who went where, what this was, what that should be...... fast forward to now. We are starting to realizing how confusing this all is and no longer are we able to decide WHO is right... into the future, we suddenly start looking around at each other and we are going to try and form a collective picture that includes yet excludes all of us and individual creativeness... BUT, hahahaha.... how does *that* work?

Selfish desires, whether good or bad, does not change another person and thus, we cannot together no matter how much we think we can, put this puzzle back together in a different way that will bring about the peace and contentment the one who created it brought about. It means submission, yes, but the submission serves a purpose... just not yours (and that's your problem with the G-d of the bible I do believe)

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to say that ppl see a piece of the puzzle and get frustrated because it doesn't make sense and they do one of two things with it: they either discard it for a piece that does make sense or they cling to that piece and other pieces they like with ALL their might. That is stupid, because it is just a piece. There is a destoyer though that will see how the pieces can be manipulated into "his" perfect picture for his gratification and suddenly, before you realize it (because you have been discarding pieces and leaving them to be picked up and manipulated by someone else), that destroyer will steal away YOUR piece (or few pieces) and you won't be able to argue because he has already built up more pieces and worked them to his liking.. basically, he will have more than you do. It would be nice to know that there is a benevolent G-d who is allowing this to happen for benevolent purposes because what is being set up now is anything but benevolent and I CAN'T go into my happy place (my piece(s)) because having a happy place in your head doesn't negate that the physical still exists and we ARE for better or worse stuck in it.



[edit on 7-12-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by dAlen


I guess we are coming from different viewpoints and here are some that may add to what we are talking about. There are many references to Paul by scholars that may, or may not, intrigue you.
MP

reply to post by JPhish

Originally posted by JPhish
instead of just saying that incarnated is wrong, why don't you do some research? You'll more than likely arrive at the same conclusion incarnated did.

Great post incarnated.

I have researched this and I did not come to the same conclusion. I simply have a different opinion than incarnated does. I never said he was wrong, only that I have a different opinion.

reply to post by Incarnated


I hope that we can both find something in common to begin a good learning discussion that seeks the Truth in all things important to a human. I say this for I have studied many of the religions in our world and have found many truths in all of them. I find that to known the whole being of whom we are and what is our purpose to be most important for everyone. We all seek a thing called Love in ourlives as we develop hope in better things ahead for us all if we continue with an open heart and mind. Hope is said to be the "Faith in something unseen" as the Word tells us all. I consider myself blessed for I have been touched by the Holy Spirit of promise. So much does this energy quicken a person that one sees the world differently as before with just the human mind to judge. I ask you to use your energy to find the Light of God before your time is too late for it would be a sad thing to lose ones self in not seeing God in the Universe for a heart may be hardened. I have studied many faiths and find good in allof them. I also see the handy work of the spirit of God reaching out to peoples living in many places. He calls you also if you choose to listen.

Try seeking the Light......learning true love for all....and faith in the unseen. May you be blessed with Spirit of God to aid and teach you all goods things given by him to aid us all. I have faced the fact called the Lord my God through the Holy Spirit which shows me all good things to share with my fellow man on earth. Good journey!

[edit on 7-12-2008 by Light2u]

If two people are writing about the same event that they SAW, or learned about thru their culture, would you say the later author was 'stealing' the idea from the first author? I don't think so. You are assuming that those stories are myth. What if they are fact? What if you are WRONG by assuming the Earth is zillions of years old, and you are ignoring the FACT that MANY scientists discredit radiocarbon dating? It is a hoax! Second LAW of Thermodynamics; all things go from an ordered state, to a disordered state. Postulate of Evolution; all living systems go from a disordered state to an ordered state. Proven wrong by preceding law. The Bible, written over many years, has spoken of 'extraterrestrials' from the beginning. Understood as 'angels'. A massive universal war, with the rebels called the 'fallen angels' or demons. The Bible states that this piece of rock is of intense interest to the universe, as G-d is preparing a group of individuals to co-rule and reign with/under Him. It also states that some of these rebel ETs have bred with humans in the past, and are still with us, in positions of power and authority. We talk about them all the time in the conspiracy threads. All these things occuring right now, worldwide, have been spoken of in the Bible for hundreds, and thousands of years. Of course, noone seems to remember that. Like the star Nemesis arriving, and a one world govt, currency, religion, and 'leader'. It's all happening now. Wake up.

By the way, I find it interesting that astronomers have come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ HAD to have been born on September 11th, according to the astronomical observations layed out in the Bible. Interesting that Lucifer would choose that day to make people dread, and remember that day as bad.

Originally posted by crmanager
You are so smart!

Thank you. All the world is better now that you have explained 2,000 years of backward thinking by over 1 Billion people.

You knew this along along and deemed us worthy of saving.

Thank you, Thank you.

It amazes me how...people like you... base ALL EXISTANCE on summerian writing.

I know what you will say, "its right there for all to read."

Well, it says that Gays are evil, Obama is a Muslim and we all come Nibiru.

So it MUST BE TRUE.

Actually, It doesn't say Gays are evil, it says they are cursed and this is true. Not because Gays are any different then anyone, it is just that they don't bring forth fruit of the spirit...the living being and a new Generation to carry the blood forth in which is the life. Don't carry forth the life, don't carry forth as a name ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

The works say no where to my knowledge, that Obama is a Muslim.

Is that welcome Nibiru, or We all come Nibiru? Either way, Hibiru, Nibiru, Suburu, Siberu, Hebrew....all the same thing.

I am confused at your statements.

Peace

Originally posted by Light2u We all seek a thing called Love in ourlives as we develop hope in better things ahead for us all if we continue with an open heart and mind. [edit on 7-12-2008 by Light2u]

See, this isn't the Truth. This is wrong as well. First clue as to where you are misled by your emotions as well as also showing what it is you are lacking and what your agenda is found in your statement, "*WE ALL* seek a *THING* called Love..."

1. "WE" don't all seek it.
2. Define "Love" and this will REALLY show your motivation
3. Having an open heart and mind to your fellow man's agenda will never work. This path that you have laid out appears to be light, but is *not* Light. Use some discernment (that which you obviously are trying to avoid) and you should clearly see why it is doomed to fail. Logic need not be thrown you know.

[edit on 7-12-2008 by justamomma]

[edit on 7-12-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by darkelf


i'm not even saying incarnated is right . . . it's just nice to see something "different" concerning religion on these forums. This is not at all a new theory to me; but it's a breath of fresh air, juxtaposed to all the evolution vs creationism threads; which i enjoy, but incarnated is at least giving us some variety . . . some discussion on the possibilities concerning this theory would be nicer than just saying it's "right or "wrong".

reply to post by MatrixProphet
I might have too! (or just the religious threads). I tend to think the baby jesus was assasinated in a reconfiguration of history, that the result was soo bizarre that the decision to fix it was to implant him with another, thus resulting in an imposter dying on the cross-and the missing 30 years of his life. (see what I mean, gotta go, run, no more religion for me, I promise, at least...for a while.)