Are you a Christian or a Paulian?

reply to post by badmedia


As I used all the characters allowed in my last posting, I had to finish here.

This is on Page 10 now. Many things have been listed and said, and in response the only thing I have heard is claims that people do not understand Paul. Any one of the ones already mentioned is fine. Take your pick and please start with the one you feel is easiest to bring understanding to as it may help with others.

Okay, very good.

That will be in my next post. Though it may be a few days before I can get to it as we are having out of town guests staying for the weekend and then, of course, I will have to peruse the thread too.

reply to post by L.I.B.


great post LIB (From page 10).sounds to me like Badmedia and Paul have alot more in common than he thinks ...
Badmedia had his road to Damascus experience and so did Paul ...





[edit on 6-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by badmedia


How about that? The guests that we were expecting earlier today have actually had a change of plans and won't be here till Sunday and will be staying through till Monday.

Also, in case you might have missed it, I have a reply to you on the previous page. And, this post will also be divided up into two parts. I should post more often and gain more points so I can be allowed more characters.

This is on Page 10 now. Many things have been listed and said, and in response the only thing I have heard is claims that people do not understand Paul. Any one of the ones already mentioned is fine. Take your pick and please start with the one you feel is easiest to bring understanding to as it may help with others.

Alrighty.

I'd like to begin with a statement that I made (on page 7) in response to something you had written, but had not received a reply back from you on.

It is:

""I wrote: From what I have seen you have judged him in this very thread with statements such as:

You wrote: Paul is decieving people into believing anything that is power is gods will, not what Jesus defines and shows is gods will.

Then, I went on to say: That is a pretty harsh judgment and accusation.

Nevertheless, about your complaint, didn't Jesus say: Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:11

Jesus is saying the exact same thing that Paul is being harshly judged and accused of. ""

There is a very important distinction to keep in mind regarding the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul. Jesus was speaking to Jews and Paul wasn't (for the most part).

Jesus' diciples were those who already knew, practiced and obeyed as best they could Judaic law; who through self-discipline were more ready for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Paul wasn't speaking to these types of individuals. Paul was speaking to those who yet needed to discipline their carnal nature.

Before I go on, I wish to clarify that I do not support the corrupted church system which teaches all that a person need do is "believe" and leaves out the remaining steps that needs to be taken after this first step. These churches who only teach "believe" and hell and damnation for everyone else. I do not support magical thinking in the least. Yet, I do recognize the importance of this first step.

The apostolic churches have preserved the mysteries, yet they don't seem to do as much as they could in developing the christ within individuals. Martin Luther, I believe, did a great injustice to Christianity. Instead of being the true reformer that he could have been, we ended up getting the reformation which led to the anarchy today within church-ianity and it's thousands of denominations.

Just as Jesus said to those in authority in his lifetime: But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Granted, those who follow Paul do not understand Paul. I'll go one step further and say that they are also incapable of understanding Jesus too, much less love him except for what Jesus can do for them.

But, let me get back to this issue of authority and the church.

I believe that Jesus himself said to subscribe/submit to authority. Not just as referenced earlier in this post. I too have felt that there would be no churches if Jesus' teachings had been followed, but I at that time didn't totally understand the progression of the soul. I digress...

Jesus has reportedly said the word church on a couple occasions. Jesus spoke Aramaic and so the word translated as church could have meant communion in the following verses.

So when he said to Peter: And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Matthew 16:17-18

It could be said that these verses actually mean: Communion with him and our Father will be built on revelation.

Yet, in contrast there's another instance where he is again speaking to his disciples, he states:

15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17

In these verses I doubt that he used the word church, but instead used the word synagogue, same thing it could be said; yet, he is upholding the Jewish law (authority) of having at minimum two witnesses for the prevention of false witnessing.

Jesus again upholds the authority of the priesthood by saying this even though he spoke against the hypocrisy practiced within it. He also indicated how to consider people who would not listen: as a Gentile, which are the unlearned and laden heavy with sin; and as a tax collector, which is someone who doesn't care about their fellow man i.e. the hell and damnation crowd, and/or those who do not see how we are all connected.

Jesus is well known for saying: whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Yet, there is a curious sequence of events described in Luke 22:35-38 just prior to going to the garden where he would be turned over to the chief priests and scribes. In those verses Jesus says to sell some stuff to buy swords. What could have been his motivation for this apparent contradiction?


I ran out of room and will have to finish in the next post.


Edited to fix html.

[edit on 6-12-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by badmedia


Jesus is well known for saying: whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Yet, there is a curious sequence of events described in Luke 22:35-38 just prior to going to the garden where he would be turned over to the chief priests and scribes. In those verses Jesus says to sell some stuff to buy swords. What could have been his motivation for this apparent contradiction?

I suggest that it is to show, for all time, his willingness to live by his own teachings in showing his own submission/obedience to the high priest/authority.

These obscure verses are there for a reason, I believe. He was not going to allow anyone to kill him** prematurely thereby changing his obedience to the lawful Jewish authority's decisions. So, again, Jesus shows his respect for authority. He did not come to destroy, but to fulfill the law.

And, let us not forget he was teaching Jews and that Paul wasn't. Therefore, the issue of discipline and submission to authority can be found far more frequently within Paul's writings. The Jews who Jesus taught already submitted to the priestly authorities. The Gentiles did not.

This is part of the back drop to the church's authority, but there is more and can go into it if you'd like. As it is, I hope I have been able to shed some light onto why Paul's teachings involve so much more attention to discipline and references to authority.



**While I personally believe that no one could have possibly been able to kill Jesus without his agreement, the bible will often give us obscure not easily understood and seemingly contradictory verses to make us dig deeper for understanding.


Edited to add something that was in previous post for continuity. Needed? (shrugs shoulders)

[edit on 6-12-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by Simplynoone


Yes.

And, thank you.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I do hope that when you say "you" here that you are using it as a general term. Otherwise, that is a claim that you cannot back up. I would rather think that you do not make such assumptions.

It wasn't person specific. I was saying that if someone only looks at the good, then they will not end up being right due to not looking at the entire picture.

LOL, yes it is plain as day. Agreed! okay? I am not at variance with you over the church... not by much anyway.

For now, just remember the prophecy. That is what I wanted you to take note of.

It wasn't a prophecy, it was a plan/conspiracy against god. Just because Jesus knew it was going to happen doesn't make the plan somehow "good".

It is recorded in the bible that he did. Additionally, Jesus taught him not only from the Spirit realm to Paul's mind, but in person to person where much less error can occur due to the human mind's inclination to sometimes misinterpret revelatory information received.

(Not at all saying this occurred in your case, but that it does happen. As long as we are human, we are prone to make mistakes. Sometimes people get seduced in the 1st heaven and think they have made it and then if and when the 2nd heaven is reached some people act as if they know it all. The third heaven, being purer, presents it's challenges too.)

Anyway, after Paul recovered from his vision, he spoke regarding the truth of Christ rather than what he was previously involved with. It is obvious that his mind had been illumined, and after this event he went to Arabia and spent some years there where Mount Sinai is.

So, the first vision on the road was Saul's seeing Jesus for the first time, and Paul saw him for the second time bodily in person as well as in the higher/highest realms too while in Arabia.

After the illuminating vision, this seeing Jesus bodily occurs even today... do you dispute it?

I have never experienced it. Not once. I wake up almost every day with answers to questions I had in the previous day, and I wake up saying them over and over. Just like the other morning I woke up thinking the church is inside you over and over and over. But the closest thing I have ever seen that would be considered Jesus in the "flesh" is when other people speak the truth.

As well, the vision itself has nothing to do with if it makes me right or wrong. It was nothing more than a comfort to let me know I was here by my own choice from that point on. It is the knowledge and understanding someone brings out that is important. And thus, that is where my disagreements with Paul really begin. Especially when people replace their own personal relationship with Pauls understandings as has been done by the church.

To say Paul is needed to understand Jesus is to say there is another teacher. That what Jesus said and did doesn't hold up on it's own. If your understanding of Jesus doesn't include the understanding of Paul, you are somehow wrong.

I cut out your explanation only to save on characters used. I understand what you are saying. Perhaps I should explain that anytime I see someone labeling another, such as "Paul is "fill in the blank", that is a defining statement. A blessing if positive and a cursing accusation if negative.

Either way, we need to be careful in labeling another as it takes liberties with another's right to self-define.

But I don't just label Paul. I give the reasons why I think these things, and the error of the way he shows. The label I give Paul is that same label Jesus gave people like Paul. What is said about those who distort the way?

See, the big difference in me and Paul is that I would never become anyone's leader. I will tell those people they need to get their own understandings so they can lead themselves and be free. I have no interest in worldly power. I don't have some grand delusion that me being in charge is somehow going to change things. Maybe Paul did follow Jesus, I hope so and I think in the end all will. But I can't take what he says as authority over the words of Jesus, and what else can I do aside from point out the contradictions. Contradictions which btw also lead people away from the path. Maybe Paul had great expectations that the church was somehow going to save the world and had good intentions. I do not know. But I know he broke the things that Jesus said to do, and for Jesus to make him such an authority for people who follow Jesus to follow on Earth is a contradiction.

Jesus doesn't just tell them not to make themselves leaders, he says why. That we are all equal. But Paul by making himself a leader doesn't follow that. Pauls understandings are almost all very literal in meaning. "It is the way I say it is, and you'll be damned for believing otherwise".

So yes, I think I do have good reason to question if Paul is legit or not. And when compared to the example of Jesus, then it is clear he is not. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a purpose on a higher level. It doesn't mean everything he said is wrong/bad/evil. But he is not the one to follow, and if you follow him you will be mislead.

Also, I think it is important to keep in mine that towards the end times many will be mislead. And when I see many people mislead by these teachings, and even those like them in other religions it's going to draw red flags. Is it really just coincidental that the people who religious hypocrites will counter anything Jesus says with quotes from Paul?

Remember, I didn't learn my understandings from the bible. I learned them outside the bible, and then I would get random quotes from Jesus here and there and I was just like wow he is so right about things you never hear from anyone(mainstream). As such, I do not see that same truth when I read Paul. I see idol worship and literal meanings instead of understanding. I see Paul pointing at Jesus, then telling people to do things that are not what Jesus taught. And I see people today running around quoting Paul while saying Jesus all the time and doing things opposite of the example given.

I don't believe such things are just coincidence.

Well, let's see if some of this can be righted... the false understandings that causes the sins that have been done in his name, that is.

Do it all the time. And of course, I am always meet with the words of Paul in response.

So you see, mankind has not changed. The problems confronting mankind are timeless. I sometimes think that that the bondage and slavery the Hebrews were under in Egypt was actually a corrupt religious system that they were freed from.

Yes of course I see this. When I read the bible and it says "jew", I do not take it as meaning literal "jew", I see it as also meaning "Christian". I see the relgious hypocrites in the mainstream as pharisee's. These things aren't there literally, but is seen only with understanding.

Our spirituality has been put on halt for 2000+ years, while our technical know-how has been focused on. Now lets take a physical point of view on this, with heaven being out in the universe. It says the nephilum roamed the earth then - and still do. And it also mentions fallen angels, and that Satan will be cast to earth losing his freedom of travel. For this to happen it means you have to lose technology. Now, you use a computer all the time, but could you build one from scratch? So, if you are in control of mankind, you want to advance their technology as quickly as possible to "escape" the quarantine. Of course, as we are quarantined to this planet, to do so would they would have to war with those who quarantine us. So you get blind people to fight the battles, and move technology with war so they are ready.

But I have no direct knowledge of this, just makes sense. And even if it's not on this kind of a physical level, the same basic equation is used. ET's could be physical and angels/demons could be spiritual - or even both if you look into the possibilities of consciousness and how it is connected. Either way, they are basically perceived in the same way - not belonging to this earth, and they will be "our enemy" and fight against us. And of course, possibly even a combination of both.

1 thing is certain and that is spirituality has been put on halt and ridiculed for quite sometime now.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
Nevertheless, about your complaint, didn't Jesus say: Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:11

Jesus is saying the exact same thing that Paul is being harshly judged and accused of. ""

The keyword here is greater sin. The Pharisees delivered Jesus to the romans, and for that reason they had the greater sin. Also he says from above, not from god and that they have still sinned for killing him.

What is the only thing you can not be forgiven of? To blasphemy against the holy spirit. Now I know some people claim others have done it, and others worry if they have done it. But you can't do it if you don't actually even know what it is, you are just directing whatever to what you think it is. To truly do that you have to know the truth, and then deny it, which is what those who delivered him had done. Forgive them father for they know not what they do - they are blind to the truth, and as they have no understanding they are not truly to blame for their actions. But it is those who are not blind and do know the truth who act in such a way that truly have the greatest sin.

Which we see in what you called the prophecy earlier, where they had planned to kill him from the start for their own power.

There is a very important distinction to keep in mind regarding the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul. Jesus was speaking to Jews and Paul wasn't (for the most part).

Truth and understandings are universal.

Jesus' diciples were those who already knew, practiced and obeyed as best they could Judaic law; who through self-discipline were more ready for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Paul wasn't speaking to these types of individuals. Paul was speaking to those who yet needed to discipline their carnal nature.

I believe that Jesus himself said to subscribe/submit to authority. Not just as referenced earlier in this post. I too have felt that there would be no churches if Jesus' teachings had been followed, but I at that time didn't totally understand the progression of the soul. I digress...

It was do as they say, not as they do. The hypocrite is right when he points out the man who killed another, but then when he kills that man for it, then he has become the hypocrite. Thus you do as they say (do not kill), but not as they do(kill).

The people will get the authority they deserve, not the authority they want. It is all based on the people. When people do not fall prey to the hypocrites, they get good leaders. Otherwise, they get GWB. If the people are dumb and don't keep up to their personal responsibilities, then they will submit to authority. If they are smart, educated and understand freedom and what it means, then they will demand and receive good leaders.

Just because they may be put there, does not automatically mean they are to be followed. We can think of plenty of bad leaders.

Jesus has reportedly said the word church on a couple occasions. Jesus spoke Aramaic and so the word translated as church could have meant communion in the following verses.

So when he said to Peter: And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Matthew 16:17-18

The true church you build is with knowledge and understanding(wisdom) which is built here and in heaven. It is the only thing you can take with you. It is again no coincidence that these are the same things that makes a man rich in the eyes of god.

Just as Jesus mentions in Matthew 7 about the wise man being the one who does what he says, and the fool being the one who hears but does not do. Notice how he likens each house as being built.

When Jesus is talking about a church he will call it a synagogue as you note below.

There is a reason he told them not to make themselves into leaders. The leaders preach to the people. Where as Jesus said when people get together and discuss he will be with them. A discussion - as we are having now - brings understanding and betters our understandings as we extend our perspective further than our own. So when you do this, you are building your understanding and thus your church in heaven. When you forget something, it will be forgotten in heaven(bad knowledge/understandings, eg: kill or be killed). Again, this also has to do with forgiveness, as once you no longer make the error, all is forgotten as it is no longer an issue.

Jesus again upholds the authority of the priesthood by saying this even though he spoke against the hypocrisy practiced within it. He also indicated how to consider people who would not listen: as a Gentile, which are the unlearned and laden heavy with sin; and as a tax collector, which is someone who doesn't care about their fellow man i.e. the hell and damnation crowd, and/or those who do not see how we are all connected.

This goes back to people getting what they deserve. And again that you are supposed to follow Jesus and not Paul.

When i awoke, as I was learning it felt like synchronicity. Just 1 thing after another. I would have an idea/thought one night, and then the next day I would see it repeated to me in the oddest of ways. Like sometimes just like 4 words in a song would repeat it to me. And it was like wow, it was right in front of my face the entire time and I just never noticed. I found it kind of brilliant in a way of how it was hidden. Because it really wasn't exactly hidden from me, I just never thought to see it.

For that reason, I don't really mind so much who I talk to. If they don't have understanding, nothing I say will make sense to them. Only if they actually take the step to understand will I be talking to them. But that doesn't mean I should treat those people as my prey, my slave or otherwise. Even as much as I dislike the church, I would stand up for it's right to be there, it is not my place to choose. Those who have ears will hear. Those who take advantage of those without ears and hear themselves are not of Jesus.

Jesus is well known for saying: whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Yet, there is a curious sequence of events described in Luke 22:35-38 just prior to going to the garden where he would be turned over to the chief priests and scribes. In those verses Jesus says to sell some stuff to buy swords. What could have been his motivation for this apparent contradiction?

You can defend yourself without actually killing someone. Not a sin to block a blow someone is trying to deal to you. Most telling here is how they used the sword. He did not live by the sword. Pray that ye enter not into temptation. What happens when one loses an ear?

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I suggest that it is to show, for all time, his willingness to live by his own teachings in showing his own submission/obedience to the high priest/authority.

If he had done otherwise he would have sinned, and he gave his life to be the example, so that people could see that example and find the path to heaven. He did not have to do so, he choose to do that for people.

These obscure verses are there for a reason, I believe. He was not going to allow anyone to kill him** prematurely thereby changing his obedience to the lawful Jewish authority's decisions. So, again, Jesus shows his respect for authority. He did not come to destroy, but to fulfill the law.

In fulfilling the law, he gives understanding to the law. But he only follows Gods laws, not mans laws.

And, let us not forget he was teaching Jews and that Paul wasn't. Therefore, the issue of discipline and submission to authority can be found far more frequently within Paul's writings. The Jews who Jesus taught already submitted to the priestly authorities. The Gentiles did not.

Is it not really the same argument of who you follow, Jesus or Satan? For wide is that path of destruction, but narrow is the path of Jesus.

**While I personally believe that no one could have possibly been able to kill Jesus without his agreement, the bible will often give us obscure not easily understood and seemingly contradictory verses to make us dig deeper for understanding.

Close - death is not real. Your body may no longer be, but your consciousness does not die from the physical. Thus fear not those who have no power after "death". Be happy when others pass on, not sad, etc. For if you truly believe then you know they are not dead.

This video is pretty much how I see reality.



[edit on 6-12-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #1 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

It wasn't person specific.

It could be construed that way. Afterall, you were talking to me and saying 'you'. Language, especially written, is a delicate matter. Attention to details are important.

I was saying that if someone only looks at the good, then they will not end up being right due to not looking at the entire picture.

I knew what you were saying at the time.

But now that you have expounded even more, it is interesting/curious/odd, even laughable, that you have this view.

It wasn't a prophecy, it was a plan/conspiracy against god.

Read this article:

www.hopeofisrael.net...

Just because Jesus knew it was going to happen doesn't make the plan somehow "good".

I'll refrain from putting a value judgment on it. Evidently Jesus could have easily prevented it; that is, if you believe Jesus.

I have never experienced it. Not once.

Yes, I had expected as much.

I wake up almost every day with answers to questions I had in the previous day, and I wake up saying them over and over.

Yes, this awareness of being educated while sleeping is a result of the awakened mind.

Just like the other morning I woke up thinking the church is inside you over and over and over.

And yet, this verification given to you in my reply regarding Jesus' mentions of the church was totally glossed over and ignored. The reason I bring this up is not for recognition, but instead because your reply to my post regarding submission to authority really felt like you were talking at me and not with me. But, I'll get more into that later and see if we can actually have a discussion.

As well, the vision itself has nothing to do with if it makes me right or wrong. It was nothing more than a comfort to let me know I was here by my own choice from that point on. It is the knowledge and understanding someone brings out that is important.

I too know the reasons for them and what follows as a result.

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #2 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

And thus, that is where my disagreements with Paul really begin. Especially when people replace their own personal relationship with Pauls understandings as has been done by the church.

How can their own personal relationship be replaced when it hasn't first even been developed yet?

To say Paul is needed to understand Jesus is to say there is another teacher. That what Jesus said and did doesn't hold up on it's own.

Again I repeat myself: I am not saying that Paul is needed to understand Jesus. I have only suggested that there is some things within the writings of Paul that could be helpful to you in your personal walk.

And besides, there is another teacher. The one that made the bible come alive for you. Whereas before this teacher came, you have said that it didn't make any sense to you.

No one, I believe, is given full complete knowledge from this teacher. As you have noticed, a chunk of knowledge came first, and thereafter answers come to the questions asked. We each receive to the capacity that we are able. Therefore, it is a wisdom to put aside that which is not understood or agreed with within the bible if the understanding that it generates doesn't show the goodness of God. To be humble, and realize that we may not yet have been given sufficient understanding and to continue to seek and ask for understanding is important for further growth.

If your understanding of Jesus doesn't include the understanding of Paul, you are somehow wrong.

Here's that you and your stuff again...

This time I get the impression you are saying: [I'm told that] If my understanding of Jesus doesn't include the understanding of Paul, I am somehow wrong.

Not necessarily, but then again, it could. Depends on the situation I'd have to say. Paul goes into more explanation than Jesus did about some things as Paul was trying to explain Jewish and Christic understandings to gentiles that Jews just grew up with and Jesus' audience just understood without extrapolation.

But I don't just label Paul. I give the reasons why I think these things, and the error of the way he shows. The label I give Paul is that same label Jesus gave people like Paul. What is said about those who distort the way?

What is the way as you understand it?

What is said about those who are a victim of those who mislead?

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #3 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

See, the big difference in me and Paul is that I would never become anyone's leader.

There are disciples that are also apostles and then there are disciples who always remain disciples. Apostles are those who are sent.

It just occured to me that your argument seems to actually be with Jesus for whom he chose to send to the gentiles.

I will tell those people they need to get their own understandings so they can lead themselves and be free. I have no interest in worldly power. I don't have some grand delusion that me being in charge is somehow going to change things.

And you think that that was what Paul was doing? Being stoned and left for dead, imprisoned, outcast by his Jewish family and brothers and more? He suffered at the hands of worldly powers. All because he was sent, as an apostle by and for Jesus.

We can all give conjecture on what we would or wouldn't do, until actually being asked by God to do something. Personally, through experience, I would advise not going against what is requested. Yet, you judge another man for what you have never experienced. Something comes to mind about walking a mile in someone elses shoes...

I understand this being free, and it doesn't include pointing to another of God's annointed and saying: fake!

And as for people getting their own understandings... isn't that what you have the most problem with? Their own understandings that contradict your understandings?

Understandings, even revealed ones, are limited to the level that is reached. Lead themselves? What if they are blinded by not having reached the highest levels and are misled by deceiving spirits? The spiritual path is fraught with mishaps, and you want people to have their own understandings no matter the harm that might be done?

Maybe Paul did follow Jesus, I hope so and I think in the end all will. But I can't take what he says as authority over the words of Jesus,...

I would not ask you to. I have only encouraged you to gain more understanding.

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #4 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

... and what else can I do aside from point out the contradictions.

You could seek understanding on these seeming contradictions and then pass these understandings on to those whom you see as deceived. Uplift them from their present state of consciousness. You see, many people think that they cannot ever live as Jesus taught. i.e. That was Jesus, and me... well, I am this smuck who can't even get through a day without looking at the pretty ladies or wanting a new pair of shoes. They need inspiration.

Jesus is on this unreachable pedestal. Yes, an idol. But, telling people that they worship an idol will only get their back up. And then telling them they are following a type of satan is not effective either in lifting their consciousness. It gets people more entrenched in the hole instead of lifting them up with the desire to become all that Jesus wants for everyone.

Of course I do understand that seeking for understanding is far more difficult and elucidating that understanding can be even more difficult.

Contradictions which btw also lead people away from the path.

What is the path as you see it, beginning to end?

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #5 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

Jesus doesn't just tell them not to make themselves leaders, he says why. That we are all equal.

No, he didn't say that we were all equal. What was said, was:

10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

11 "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. Matthew 23:10-12

What is Christ to you? Yes, all aspects.

Do those who have had the seed of the kingdom of God planted know Christ fully, partially, maybe only just vaguely?

Do all have Christ born within them? After being born, does that mean they are mature in Christ?

Have all been crucified into Christ?

Been resurrected and have ascended?

There is One leader, and that is Christ for all these stages. Is each stage equal? Why or why not?

Do you even know where you are at?

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #6 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

But Paul by making himself a leader doesn't follow that.

Paul didn't do that to himself. Jesus did. Made Paul a servant that is.

Pauls understandings are almost all very literal in meaning. "It is the way I say it is, and you'll be damned for believing otherwise".

Is it Paul's understandings, or is it the understandings of those who do not understand?

We have previously discussed the levels of understanding that can be obtained from each bible verse. If all you are seeing is literal meanings, then the allegorical, the seeking and the mystical meanings are missed, or lacking.

Could it be that those who do not understand Paul are those who do not yet fully understand Christ Jesus and what he knew?

So yes, I think I do have good reason to question if Paul is legit or not. And when compared to the example of Jesus, then it is clear he is not.

Questioning Pail is fine, imputing evil to him is another matter altogether. Questioning leads to answers only as long as the mind isn't already made up.

If Paul were here with us today, I'd have some questions regarding some of the things he has written, since they go against the Judaic teachings as I understand them. Does that mean I attribute evil to Paul? No, my freedom comes with responsibility.

It has to be also understood that we see only one side of the picture, which are his answers to the questions posed to him. We do not see the letters written to him.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have a purpose on a higher level. It doesn't mean everything he said is wrong/bad/evil. But he is not the one to follow, and if you follow him you will be mislead.

Then, inspire.

Also, I think it is important to keep in mine that towards the end times many will be mislead.

Yes, and it important to not be one of them by encouraging dispute and divisions within the body of Christ.

And when I see many people mislead by these teachings, and even those like them in other religions it's going to draw red flags.

Of course it would.

Is it really just coincidental that the people who religious hypocrites will counter anything Jesus says with quotes from Paul?

Are they truly hypocrits, or are they just ignorant?

What have you been finding their beliefs are?

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #7 of 7 to your reply of my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

Remember, I didn't learn my understandings from the bible.

Yes, I remember your saying that the bible didn't make any sense to you.

I learned them outside the bible, and then I would get random quotes from Jesus here and there and I was just like wow he is so right about things you never hear from anyone(mainstream). As such, I do not see that same truth when I read Paul. I see idol worship and literal meanings instead of understanding. I see Paul pointing at Jesus, then telling people to do things that are not what Jesus taught. And I see people today running around quoting Paul while saying Jesus all the time and doing things opposite of the example given.

I don't believe such things are just coincidence.

What makes you think that they can understand without the instruction of the Holy Spirit? You didn't did you?

What can you do to inspire them to reach past that first stage of belief so that the Holy Spirit can also work in their life?

When I read the bible and it says "jew", I do not take it as meaning literal "jew", I see it as also meaning "Christian". I see the relgious hypocrites in the mainstream as pharisee's. These things aren't there literally, but is seen only with understanding.

I do something similar with the word Israel. Jacob was renamed Israel because "he struggled with God". So those who struggle with God and are triumphant is Israel. I don't do that with Jew/Christian because it isn't definitionally correct. Even with understanding, definitions need to be correct. Otherwise, personal definitions will lead to all sorts of confusions, and not only in conversation.

Our spirituality has been put on halt for 2000+ years, while our technical know-how has been focused on. Now lets take a physical point of view on this, with heaven being out in the universe. It says the nephilum roamed the earth then - and still do. And it also mentions fallen angels, and that Satan will be cast to earth losing his freedom of travel. For this to happen it means you have to lose technology. Now, you use a computer all the time, but could you build one from scratch? So, if you are in control of mankind, you want to advance their technology as quickly as possible to "escape" the quarantine. Of course, as we are quarantined to this planet, to do so would they would have to war with those who quarantine us. So you get blind people to fight the battles, and move technology with war so they are ready.

But I have no direct knowledge of this, just makes sense. And even if it's not on this kind of a physical level, the same basic equation is used. ET's could be physical and angels/demons could be spiritual - or even both if you look into the possibilities of consciousness and how it is connected. Either way, they are basically perceived in the same way - not belonging to this earth, and they will be "our enemy" and fight against us. And of course, possibly even a combination of both.

It is good to know when one does not know. The Tao says something along the lines that: It is a disease to say I know when you do not.

1 thing is certain and that is spirituality has been put on halt and ridiculed for quite sometime now.

God's plan with not be thwarted.


Responses to your other post follows.

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #1 of 4 to your post on page 11, and prior to these are my responses to your reply to my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

Nevertheless, about your complaint, didn't Jesus say: Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." John 19:11

Jesus is saying the exact same thing that Paul is being harshly judged and accused of. ""

The keyword here is greater sin. The Pharisees delivered Jesus to the romans, and for that reason they had the greater sin. Also he says from above, not from god and that they have still sinned for killing him.

Come now, don't be guilty of what you charge others with. Please be as intellectually honest as you wish others to be and don't ignore what the rest of the verse says.

Are you denying that Jesus stated and is showing that he submitted to authority?

In your last post you wrote: "with heaven being out in the universe". The universe is above. Isn't our Father in heaven?

What is the only thing you can not be forgiven of? To blasphemy against the holy spirit. Now I know some people claim others have done it, and others worry if they have done it. But you can't do it if you don't actually even know what it is, you are just directing whatever to what you think it is. To truly do that you have to know the truth, and then deny it, which is what those who delivered him had done. Forgive them father for they know not what they do - they are blind to the truth, and as they have no understanding they are not truly to blame for their actions. But it is those who are not blind and do know the truth who act in such a way that truly have the greatest sin.

Which we see in what you called the prophecy earlier, where they had planned to kill him from the start for their own power.

While it is good to see examples of your understanding regarding who is actually more culpable, please do try to keep in mind that I also have revealed knowledge and your going into this is unneccesary and is an avoidance of what the topic is.

There is a very important distinction to keep in mind regarding the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul. Jesus was speaking to Jews and Paul wasn't (for the most part).

Truth and understandings are universal.

If that is true, and I am not saying it isn't; then, how come you didn't understand (any part of) the bible before your mind was illumned?

There were and are differences between Jews and the gentiles as well as differences between Jews and Christians. Yet, there is no difference in mankind... we are all the same in having the same falibilities, wants, desires, hopes, aspirations, disappointments, etc.

Do you wish to ignore the differences in the cultures that these two groups: Jew and Gentiles, were raised in?

If you cannot admit that there is as much difference between the Jews and Gentiles of that day as there are differences between bush peoples and city dwellers, then perhaps you wish to be intentionally ignorant. The two groups lived differently and did not have a commonly shared education/outlook.

I really thought that since you requested intellectual honesty from others that you would exhibit that same quality yourself.

Jesus' diciples were those who already knew, practiced and obeyed as best they could Judaic law; who through self-discipline were more ready for the receipt of the Holy Spirit. Paul wasn't speaking to these types of individuals. Paul was speaking to those who yet needed to discipline their carnal nature.

I believe that Jesus himself said to subscribe/submit to authority. Not just as referenced earlier in this post. I too have felt that there would be no churches if Jesus' teachings had been followed, but I at that time didn't totally understand the progression of the soul. I digress...

It was do as they say, not as they do. The hypocrite is right when he points out the man who killed another, but then when he kills that man for it, then he has become the hypocrite. Thus you do as they say (do not kill), but not as they do(kill).

The people will get the authority they deserve, not the authority they want. It is all based on the people. When people do not fall prey to the hypocrites, they get good leaders. Otherwise, they get GWB. If the people are dumb and don't keep up to their personal responsibilities, then they will submit to authority. If they are smart, educated and understand freedom and what it means, then they will demand and receive good leaders.

Just because they may be put there, does not automatically mean they are to be followed. We can think of plenty of bad leaders.

The point of what I said was again ignored.

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #2 of 4 to your post on page 11, and prior to these are my responses to your reply to my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

Jesus has reportedly said the word church on a couple occasions. Jesus spoke Aramaic and so the word translated as church could have meant communion in the following verses.

So when he said to Peter: And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Matthew 16:17-18

The true church you build is with knowledge and understanding(wisdom) which is built here and in heaven.

"I" am not building a church.

As I posted earlier, which you totally glossed over: It could be said that these verses actually mean: Communion with him and our Father will be built on revelation.

The communion of the saints made possible by communion with the Father through Christ is the church, which Jesus and the Father are building.

Through this mechanism authority is also given to the saints who have made themselves worthy.

I am really surprised that you didn't jump on this since it explains what you have been saying about John 14:11.

The rest of your reply within this post continues with wandering into discussion unrelated to this matter of discipline and authority:

It is the only thing you can take with you.

Treasures stored in heaven. An interesting topic all on it's own.

It is again no coincidence that these are the same things that makes a man rich in the eyes of god.

Are you ascended? If not, then you live in poverty.

Just as Jesus mentions in Matthew 7 about the wise man being the one who does what he says, and the fool being the one who hears but does not do. Notice how he likens each house as being built.

Interesting that that chapter starts out with the matter of judging.

A discussion - as we are having now - brings understanding and betters our understandings as we extend our perspective further than our own.

I wish! I wish that we were having that sort of discussion.

So when you do this, you are building your understanding and thus your church in heaven. When you forget something, it will be forgotten in heaven(bad knowledge/understandings, eg: kill or be killed). Again, this also has to do with forgiveness, as once you no longer make the error, all is forgotten as it is no longer an issue.

Understandings, wide-ranging or limited as they might be, are not the only types of treasures that can be stored in heaven.



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[edit on 9-12-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #3 of 4 to your post on page 11, and prior to these are my responses to your reply to my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

Jesus again upholds the authority of the priesthood by saying this even though he spoke against the hypocrisy practiced within it. He also indicated how to consider people who would not listen: as a Gentile, which are the unlearned and laden heavy with sin; and as a tax collector, which is someone who doesn't care about their fellow man i.e. the hell and damnation crowd, and/or those who do not see how we are all connected.

This goes back to people getting what they deserve. And again that you are supposed to follow Jesus and not Paul.

Again with the ignoring of the issue of Jesus upholding the authority of the priesthood followed with talking of self...

When i awoke, as I was learning it felt like synchronicity. Just 1 thing after another. I would have an idea/thought one night, and then the next day I would see it repeated to me in the oddest of ways. Like sometimes just like 4 words in a song would repeat it to me. And it was like wow, it was right in front of my face the entire time and I just never noticed. I found it kind of brilliant in a way of how it was hidden. Because it really wasn't exactly hidden from me, I just never thought to see it.

For that reason, I don't really mind so much who I talk to. If they don't have understanding, nothing I say will make sense to them. Only if they actually take the step to understand will I be talking to them. But that doesn't mean I should treat those people as my prey, my slave or otherwise. Even as much as I dislike the church, I would stand up for it's right to be there, it is not my place to choose. Those who have ears will hear. Those who take advantage of those without ears and hear themselves are not of Jesus.

Yes, I wish we were having a discussion.

I do hope that you can see that what you are doing is exactly what you charge others with, which is the ignoring of anything that challenges a cherished belief and not having the ears to hear.

Jesus is well known Jesus is well known for saying: whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Yet, there is a curious sequence of events described in Luke 22:35-38 just prior to going to the garden where he would be turned over to the chief priests and scribes. In those verses Jesus says to sell some stuff to buy swords. What could have been his motivation for this apparent contradiction?

You can defend yourself without actually killing someone. Not a sin to block a blow someone is trying to deal to you. Most telling here is how they used the sword. He did not live by the sword. Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

Okay, you wish to go with the literal, simple meaning. Yet you complain about those whom miss the allegorical/parable meaning, whom fail to seek for understanding, and therefore lack the mystical hidden meaning.

Fine.

You are entitled to do this as well.

Though? What are those who do the same thing that they complain about others doing called?

What happens when one loses an ear?

Enlighten me.



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[edit on 9-12-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by badmedia


This is response #4 of 4 to your post on page 11, and prior to these are my responses to your reply to my post on page 10. I couldn't even get all that you had written into the reply screen using the quote function.

I suggest that it is to show, for all time, his willingness to live by his own teachings in showing his own submission/obedience to the high priest/authority.

If he had done otherwise he would have sinned, and he gave his life to be the example, so that people could see that example and find the path to heaven. He did not have to do so, he choose to do that for people.

Perhaps there is hope for a discussion afterall.

Why would he have sinned?

These obscure verses are there for a reason, I believe. He was not going to allow anyone to kill him** prematurely thereby changing his obedience to the lawful Jewish authority's decisions. So, again, Jesus shows his respect for authority. He did not come to destroy, but to fulfill the law.

In fulfilling the law, he gives understanding to the law. But he only follows Gods laws, not mans laws.

Are you saying that Jesus was a hypocrite? Making himself exempt from what he told his disciples: "therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,"

And, let us not forget he was teaching Jews and that Paul wasn't. Therefore, the issue of discipline and submission to authority can be found far more frequently within Paul's writings. The Jews who Jesus taught already submitted to the priestly authorities. The Gentiles did not.

Is it not really the same argument of who you follow, Jesus or Satan?

No.

**While I personally believe that no one could have possibly been able to kill Jesus without his agreement, the bible will often give us obscure not easily understood and seemingly contradictory verses to make us dig deeper for understanding.

Close - death is not real. Your body may no longer be, but your consciousness does not die from the physical. Thus fear not those who have no power after "death". Be happy when others pass on, not sad, etc. For if you truly believe then you know they are not dead.

Please do try to keep in mind that I know these things already. The avoidance tactics that you are employing are quite easy to see through too, btw.

This video is pretty much how I see reality.

Cute video.

Yes, I recall you saying you being god and that you were arguing with yourself; I see from your response to this issue of authority that you are still in conflict with yourself.

Lots of replys, I will only address the parts where we have disagreements ok.

Originally posted by L.I.B.
I'll refrain from putting a value judgment on it. Evidently Jesus could have easily prevented it; that is, if you believe Jesus.

Yes he could have prevented it. But in doing so he would have had to break a commandment. Thus he did not do so. Because he is the example.

As for the prophecy part - I do not find it hard to say that will happen. But again, just because it is done, does not mean the action in itself was the point. The point was in the actions of Jesus. This is evil killing good in Jesus, but it HAS to happen so that people can see the truth in what he says - do not be afraid, death is a joke. Those things done were evil, a sacrifice of the truth to keep the evil and ignorance going. Which is what the return is about.

Just like the other morning I woke up thinking the church is inside you over and over and over.

And yet, this verification given to you in my reply regarding Jesus' mentions of the church was totally glossed over and ignored. The reason I bring this up is not for recognition, but instead because your reply to my post regarding submission to authority really felt like you were talking at me and not with me. But, I'll get more into that later and see if we can actually have a discussion.

I do not submit to authority. As such, there is nothing outside of understanding that I will listen to. I do not accept something as right because someone said something at a certain time. Never. I must gain understanding instead, and then I will know if what is being said is true or not. When the things said do not match my understandings then I either misunderstood, or I do not agree. But the only thing that will change my mind is actual understanding, because it is the only way I can know if something is true or not. If I just accept what someone tells me, then I am submitting to authority. I don't follow Jesus or think he is right "because he says so". I follow because I understand what he is saying and teaching, and I understand why he is right.