Natural Selection and the Genetic Basis for Homosexuality

reply to post by Simplynoone


So what is homosexuality to you?

What is your personal definition of it?

What is your personal opinion as to what causes it?

How does this orientation, in your eyes, affect their standing in the eyes of divinity?

Sorry if you answered these already. If you have, perhaps just a another concise answer?

[edit on 20-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Well then maybe yall need to talk about that among yourselves because some would disagree with you .
Lucid did ..

You misunderstood what he said... I don't know if I shoudl go on, it's already been solidified that the only reason you don't approve of gays is because of your religious beliefs, plus you were unable to come up with any real reason why homosexuality is wrong... What you, and BigWhammy did come up with however was absurd

Destruction of civilization??? Absurd

Collapse of the family unit??? Laughable

It affects family??? No, it only affects the homophobes in the family

They have a big risk of catching AIDS because they have unprotected anal sex??? Anybody who is promiscuous, and has unprotected sex runs the risk of contracting HIV...

But, I love debating on ATS so I'll think I'll go on lol...

We don't know if it is genetic. We know that it is born. Exactly how is the question we do not yet have an answer for. It is a natural born orientation.

PERIOD.... No one ever claimed that it was genetic, I know I didn't, I was only speaking hypothetically...

I will answer your posts on my personal opinion after I tend to real life ok .
I have to do domestic chores right now .

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Now will you please undo me as a foe ? lol please ...it hurts my feelings ......I mean you no harm and your not my enemy ....and I am not even a good foe am I ?

Your beliefs are fundamentally hateful.

Your entire position that the act of homosexuality is bad or negative in anyway is ignorant.

Besides the fact that it is not a choice, even it was, why do you think their is something wrong with it?

[So what is homosexuality to you?]
Personal opinion it is unnatural ..other than that I really dont care what you all choose to do it is your business (Now that is my unbiased unChristian opinion ) ..

[What is your personal definition of it?]
My own personal unbiased unChristain opinion is ..see above it is an unnatural sexual act and is also a sexual addiction but is not genetic it is a choice one makes ...(that is one thing I think it could be see below for the other)

[What is your personal opinion as to what causes it?]
My unChristian unbiased personal opinion I would say more than likely a hormonal imbalance (And even my Christian opinion could include that as a possible reason too ) ....

[How does this orientation, in your eyes, affect their standing in the eyes of divinity?]
If I was not a christian it would not matter to me at all what would happen if it turned out that it was wrong all along ..I would not give a crap what happened between you and God or you and your other half ....but my Christian opinion is I care about each and every one of you and do not feel anyone is below me or worse than me or better than me ....so I care enough to worry for you if it is wrong and you did not know it and had to stand before God with it and I did not tell you what the word of God says about it .....
I would also tell you that in the end it really wont be my business then either ..and I do believe that just like a drunk or a drug addict .or an adulterer or a smoker or a prostitute whatever GOD LOVES YOU JUST AS MUCH AS HE DOES ANYONE ELSE >....God could choose to have mercy on you like he would anyone else ...the word says he will have mercy on who he will have mercy on ...So who am I to argue with that ......

I personally love people no matter what they do .... ...and would be your friend and help you in anyway I could and would even take a bullet for you to spare your life even RIGHT NOW in the here and now ...so it really does not matter to me personally if your gay or not ..I still love you ..and I believe so does GOD ...Would I approve of it ...no ...but I am sure you would not approve of my smoking either ....and God may not approve of either or our sins ..but that would not change the fact that I would still care about you and would not interfere in your life as a friend if I told you ahead of time what I thought and you still chose to be my friend ..It would not come up again ...I would just accept the fact that was your choice even though I didnt approve of it and told you that God possibly does not either ..
Just as you would hopefully still care about me even If I choose to smoke after you told me you didnt approve of it ...

Now will that do ?

reply to post by Jezus




Ok Jezus ...that is your opinion and your just as entitled to it as I am mine .
Thanks for the input .that helps alot ...

reply to post by Simplynoone


I really enjoy most of your posts. I just want to say that first. In the one area you're not understanding. Homosexuality, or sexuality for that matter because that is all this is, is a very natural act, hardwired into humans that is a gift in life. Its also a real need for most people in order to feel truly alive, and connected to one another in a loving relationship. For single people, even ones who value freedom and the black pearl from the Pirates of the Caribbean, often due to heartbreak, do not do well living without this, and so chose to have meaningful special friends who they love in a less possessive way. Sexuality is not unnatural.
Sexual preferrence is fixed. Only bisexuals can swing either way. For anyone who is straight or gay, they shudder in response to the thought of the wrong match for the preference they're born with. As to why they don't deserve to be forced to endure celibacy.
See above.
God loves all of us. And cares for everyone tenderly with respect for their feelings. The respect we offer to others, and the belief we give that they really know their own minds and feelings is a mature and caring way to treat others.

[How does this orientation, in your eyes, affect their standing in the eyes of divinity?]
If I was not a christian it would not matter to me at all what would happen if it turned out that it was wrong all along ..I would not give a crap what happened between you and God or you and your other half ....but my Christian opinion is I care about each and every one of you and do not feel anyone is below me or worse than me or better than me ....so I care enough to worry for you if it is wrong and you did not know it and had to stand before God with it and I did not tell you what the word of God says about it .....
I would also tell you that in the end it really wont be my business then either ..and I do believe that just like a drunk or a drug addict .or an adulterer or a smoker or a prostitute whatever GOD LOVES YOU JUST AS MUCH AS HE DOES ANYONE ELSE >....God could choose to have mercy on you like he would anyone else ...the word says he will have mercy on who he will have mercy on ...So who am I to argue with that ......

Don't you see the idiocy in this post???

I mean, I don't want to disrespect you but if God loves everyone equally then no one would go to hell.... God's position (or the one you are describing) on an atheist, or a homosexual would be the same as my position with my uncle. I don't get along with him, but I love him, so therefore I wouldn't want him to suffer.

God does not approve of homosexuals, or atheists, and he will send them to an eternity of suffering, and torture, and pain, and agony, but he loves them???... Does that not register in your brain as a tad bit ridiculous??? If you would want someone to go through an eternity of torture, pain, agony, and suffering, then you must have a deep rooted hate for that person.

Alex he will send me or anyone else there too .Especially us Christians ..in fact it will be worse for us than with a nonbeliever ..he says we will get it tenfold what we have done in this life ..because we knew better and did it anyway ..

He has to do something we are all outta control .This world is outta control .
We are all so far gone with wickedness (especially our hearts) see how we treat eachother ....

It hurts my heart to hear how yall treat me too (like you feel I am you) ..someone who has a difference of opinion on what I THINK about something ..which is the same as you ...

Its ok though I am grown woman and I can handle it ..
You dont approve of how I choose to live and love my Lord either ..so we are even arnt we ?


Goodnight yall ..I am going back to discuss politics ...this subject is heartwrenching because I dont want to be hurting your feelings about this ...I dont .....and I sure think your wrong in your judgement of my intent here ..my motives in posting what I do really are sincere ...and I am so sorry if anyone was hurt by anything I have said ....





[edit on 20-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

Sorry I have zero belief that Homosexuality has any basis at all in Genetics, the constant attention that the topic gets in science just shows me that people are still hung on sexuality and homosexuals feel very not in the know as to the Why and many heterosexuals are still very uncomfortable with the subject.

the development of the Brain is Hormonal in utero... Yes, Genetics can affect that, BUT there is still a myriad of factors from diet to chemical exposure that can alter what happens...

In other words genetic might play a role in brain formation, but life plays a bigger role.

Sexualization in childhood matters alot too

Homiosexuals as we know them, culturally in the West IS Cultural and new and I would link a strong portion of the rise in Homosexuality to the absence of a Father in the home and a life dominated by a woman...

some homosexuals might disagree but bear in mind, the process is at work before your old enough to even remember those first imprinting moments that define your sexuality...

I don't think the bulk of homosexuality is anything more than the combonation of hormones and sexualization through early childhood due to experience...

I also don't think it is that big a deal...

The mind is a very plastic thing... you can induce homosexual behavior and desires...

I have watched this happen to guys on blow or speed plenty of time... the result of increased crosstalk between the hemispheres... in the same way it is difficult but not impossible for your sexuality to change in life... back to hetero or vice versa... and I have seen this happen too

to say it's not so... is to treat your brain like you have no ability to control it and everything is hardwired

The reality is once sexualized most people don't want to envoke brain change...it would screw up everything they know in life...

and ofcourse the Fear of it being forced on them is quite extreme too... that goes for heterosexuals too...

going to genetics is just...walking away from the ultimate sex organ... the hman mind

Truth is we are 99% all a bit bisexual weather we choose to act on the impulse or not...

There is learned behaviors and predispositions at work... but if any of us choose willingly to allow our minds to enjoy sex from the opposite stand point we could learn how... we just don't want top

all sorts of changes occour through life... like the way as a child I hated spinach and as an Adult I like it... what is different about my minds perception of the chemicals? Do you really believe that the same thing can't happen with pheromes?

Look, we control our minds... people just get thrown in a direction and choose to remain that way... seek complicated answers for things that...maybe they are made to feel wrong about...

But Homosexuality doesn't exist anymore than heterosexuality does...

All of our sexuality is Formed, genetics at best plays a role... but that's it...


If you really want to understand sexuality... look at Fetishes... really deviuances in sexual imprinting formed...

a foot fetishist can't help the desire without at least some serious effort and time...to suck on a luscious set of Feet... any more than a Gay person can control the urge to be with another of the same sex or a hetero sexual can control the urge to be with women...

tons of fetishes...Tress, dead people, animals... all sorts of sexualities and only 2 get attention because one makes sense biologically and the other really isn't that strange when you start to examine the thing people out there trip on for thier sexualities...

But it's no different, the process... Culture matters alot more than all of it... most kids, brought up in the tradition culture of... meet girls fall in love, and who...unlike Modern times aren't exposed to all sorts of sexual messages in youth sexualize heterosexual...

In a world of bad marriages and greed and single parent homes homosexuality has become more prevalent...anger at a mom, loss of a dad... all sorts of ways it can happen...

But look at Real sexuality... first boner looking at at pair of stockings and Boom... a lifetime of a fetish... will we one day have pantyhose and feet marches?

no... I don't think so...

Is it Bad... some points made about population and stuff which... maybe not as causation but as result ...homosexuality isn't really a problem... perhaps a help in some ways...


But me? I am far more concerned about what causes sexual formation in the first place and the results of early childhood exposure to Internet Porn, sex on TV and over education in the classrom and kids raised without parents...

Because what is real... our society has a big increase in homosexuality... not a big deal, what's worse is... the Fetishes dominating and sex addiction...

I hard;y know ayone who is straight in reality... everyone has some fixation if not sex addiction period... Pedophillia..,a result I think of sexualization way to early or trauma of abuse or both... is rampant...

people are worried about us accepting our sexualities and as adults thats fine...

But this argument is BAD because it takes the focus off the TRUTH... which is kids are sexualizing WAY too young and it leads to all sorts of mental fixations and homosexual and heterosexual norms are by far the least worrysome among them...


You want to know where traditional Heterosexuality comes from... obsessive hetero only behavior... not Nature where, homosexuality is part of normal dom and submissive play... but Culture which imprints through Ritual a set of norm and hyper fetish on the opposite sex and imposed disgust of same sex play

and homosexuality is largely from a release or breakdown in that culture... no Dad around, overbearing mom... etc, (many hiomosexuals love thier moms don't get me wrong... but look at the power association of who rules the roost in childhood and get your answer)

These basic factors will always be a part of life and wax and wane in our culture and not much a big deal...

Far more important is not dressing 8 year old girls like whores, showing kids cartoons that depict all sorts of sexual kissing etc, relations between critters, not exposing your kids young or in really strange ways to extreme sexual moments that register and last forever...


Violence in the media was the big worry for the last 2 generations and sex was not... not to the same degree at least and as Millions of us enter therapy for some really wierd sh%T... I think the jury is out...

Not genetic... genetic doesn't make ou talk with a lisp or like striesand...that's cultures imprint... and it also doesn't make big guys in Jail screw little ones... that's real... it's natural dominance and submission... in heterosexual fetishism, it becomes violence against other males... what we culturally define as "homosexual" is all an act a behavior.. a learned behavior and what we fetish on and how we develop our desires is Imprinted when we are young and when we are even in the womb...

easy to understand why people "have thier sexuality as long as they can remember" but... that doesn't make it genetic, nor does it mean it can' change or be changed

I would add...that if it's relatively normal and you like it... i.e. being homosexual, there is no need to even try... it would make...quitting heroin look comfortable realistically, to alter your mind once fully formed... but it is not genetic, it can be done, happens every day

we should embrace How it happens and not judge in order to control what should perhaps be controled which is an increasing culture of real sexual dysfunction...things far removed from what anyone would deem "normal" or behavior cunducive to anything but trouble and agony in life...

don't get me wrong, I have a kinky side myself... it can make you interesting espeially when you find a match in life...

but many people are forming fetishes that just go way beyond...the first that comes to mind are Pedophilles, and unlike homosexuality, that is a danger to society as we know it...

Kids need to be left to be kids and the basics of human sexuality accepted, plenty of time as adults to deal with sex...

and

it's counter productive...in terms of the mind to tell people they are genetically inclined to anything, last I checked I could make my mind do what I choose and what I PROGRAM it to do ... to convince people they are psychologically predisposed to anything takes away from the true capacities of the human mind...

In short, it's a Silly debate... teah me how to Run my programs... I am interested in that, tell me I am destined to be ruled by them or born a certain way... I completely reject that.

reply to post by Simplynoone


You missed the point of my post darling... lol

First of all, let's not act surprised when we see a Christian (or the majority of religious people) admit they believe homosexuality is a sin. Seriously. It's old. We all know what various religious texts say regarding the matter. We also all know what most religious people will tell you what those texts say when asked. I have no idea why people act so shocked when a religious person states their beliefs on the subject.

Regardless, that is not what this thread is about. This is actually a subject that intrigues me and I would like to know more on the subject. It's not about religion, morality, or 'feelings.' It's about science. Personally, I always assumed homosexuality was psychological or developed in early childhood and I am [was] enjoying reading the comments at first. However, other than the first couple of posts, the thread seemed to lose its track.

Can we get back onto that track? Homosexuality on a social/religious level has been debated a million times and nothing new will come from the insults. I'd truly like to see how evolution explains homosexuality.

reply to post by Nookster


Thanks for bringing that up Nookster. I swear I clearly remember reading that article 20 or so years ago - in Reader's Digest maybe? - but I can't find any reference to it now.

A study was done in which a group of rats were allowed to reproduce in limited space until they were overpopulated, whereupon some individual rats began to be homosexual. If I recall correctly, the percentage of homosexuality increased with the degree of overpopulation, and when the population was reduced to acceptable levels, the number of homosexual rats decreased significantly. This would indicate to me that homosexuality may be something that is triggered by stress or environmental conditions, not "genetic" in the traditional sense that eye color and hair color are.

The argument that homosexuality would not have perpetuated to the modern day if it were genetic can be made equally well against genetic diseases such as haemophilia, cystic fibrosis, sickle-cell disease, Tay-Sachs, hemochromatosis, etc. and yet they are still with us. I suggest that the premise that homosexuality would not be present today if it were "genetic" can be at least somewhat invalidated by the modern existence of other genetic disorders.

There is also evidence to suggest that at least the tendency for several physiological mental disorders is genetic, and yet they are still with us also. I doubt seriously that either schizophrenia or manic depression (bipolar disorder) are advantageous traits for survival and reproduction.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
If it is in fact a genetic thing or whatever ...why arent yall out to get it fixed then..

In scientific terms, this is very unrealistic. We can't "fix" albinism, color blindness, Down's, cystic fibrosis, or many other genetic defects that we understand far better than we understand homosexuality. It's also a question of priorities. Why would anyone try to make "curing" homosexuality a priority when there are disorders like cancer, diabetes, CF, and heart disease out there killing people?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
If it is in fact a genetic defect then you would think that they would not want that defect to keep going down the line throughout the generations .

You would think so, perhaps. But people who have sickle-cell, CF, diabetes, cancer, alcoholism, haemophilia, and heart defects/heart disease in their families continue to reproduce and have children, so a family that occasionally produces a homosexual is certainly no worse and need not be criticized for not "shutting itself down" if the others aren't.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
In fact I bet if a poll was taken ..most would say they were straight first and then went gay after doing it a few times .they enjoyed it so they stayed with it ...

And you would be quite wrong about that. In fact, most say that they felt pressured to have "straight" sex, tried and greatly disliked it, and thereafter finally came to some acceptance that they were homosexual. The ones I have personally talked to have told me that they knew they were "different" from earliest childhood although they didn't really understand their difference until after puberty.

If you say it is not then you need to include Pedophiles and Rapists and S&Ms in the genetic defect category too ...oh and maybe even Porn Addicts ...Because they cant help it either .

Actually, I think it is highly possible that paedophilia, necrophilia, and similar disorders have a physiological component and that they can't help who/what they are attracted to, either. But pedophiles and necrophiliacs are predators and can not be tolerated in society - homosexuals can because their difference doesn't lead to criminal or predatory behavior.

Rapists, S&M, etc. are a totally different thing. They are about violence and control. Most rapists are heterosexuals. It's not a different sexual preference, it's a tendency for violence. If we don't keep the "categories" straight, this discussion will rapidly get VERY confusing.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
My own personal opinion is that God would not say it was wrong and they will be judged for that behaviour (just like everyone else will be for their behaviours ) if it was a genetic defect or something that they could not help ..Wouldnt you agree ?
[edit on 20-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

Oh, I do agree, but I believe you have this argument by the wrong end.

It is equally valid to say "Because homosexuality is physiological and not a choice, a true loving God would not condemn homosexuals, and therefore the God of the Bible is not a true God" as it is to say what you said.

When science and medicine finally provide irrefutable proof that homosexuality is NOT a choice or a preference, but a physiological/biological condition, will you stick with your statement and invalidate your God? Or would you perhaps like to back down now?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Well then please explain why Aids is rampant among mostly homosexuals ?

Allrighty then, let's hit a couple of the AIDS myths while we're at it.

1. HIV/AIDS is not an STD. It's a blood-borne infection. Yes, you can catch it via sexual activity, but you can also catch the flu or a cold by having sex with someone who's infected. We don't call them STD's, do we?

2. HIV/AIDS in America was introduced into the homosexual population deliberately by people who didn't think it would spread to heterosexuals as much as it has. AIDS is an equal opportunity killer and by no means prefers homosexuals. It infects and kills heterosexuals, children, and people of all races with equal enthusiasm.

Personally, I find it highly plausible that the people who deliberately infected homosexuals with HIV were themselves religious people trying to eliminate an "undesirable" and "sinful" segment of the population. There is, of course, no proof of that - it's just my opinion.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
(It is a proven fact that Gays have some of the most violent fights than anyone

Umm, no it's not. I know of quite a few stable, long-term Gay relationships. I have also noticed during the time I worked as a veterinary technician that some of the best, most caring, and most conscientious pet owners are Gay couples. I can understand why you'd LIKE to believe that they can't have happy, stable, loving relationships, but the truth is, they do.

(continued next post)

reply to post by Bigwhammy


If your theory were true, we all would have brown eyes and six fingers on each hand as they are the dominate genes. But, thank God, we don't. Why can't people just accept that others are different? Not you in particular Bigwhammy.

Originally posted by Griff
If your theory were true, we all would have brown eyes... But, thank God, we don't.

Now what's wrong with us brown-eyed folk?

(Just comedic relief).

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Even if I was not a CHristian ..I still would say it is NOT NATURAL and is against the NATURAL order of things ..

Oh, not this one again. The same old tired arguments ...

Today we know that homosexuality is a common and widespread phenomenon in the animal world. Not only short-lived sexual relationships, but even long-lasting partnerships; partnerships that may last a lifetime.

Source

Homosexuality is quite common in the animal kingdom, especially among herding animals. Many animals solve conflicts by practicing same gender sex. ... "One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong. Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species," explains Petter Boeckman

Source

Homosexuality is not "unnatural."

Having sexual relations with someone IS a choice. Undeniably. But WHO you are attracted to (i.e. sexual orientation) is probably NOT a choice. Presumably a person who is sexually attracted to persons of the same gender and never acts on the attraction could still be "saved." (In fact, I know a few Christians who live in frustrated misery because they believe that the only way they can get to Heaven is through lifelong celibacy because they are homosexual.) But then we imply that God has arbitrarily sentenced all persons who are homosexual (by orientation) to a life of celibacy, or be damned. Can you explain to me why God would do something like that?

P.S. Before you lash back at me and get it wrong: For the record, I'm a happily married heterosexual and do not have any Gay family members.

Alex it wasnt you at all ..

I think it was more the hateful ignorant name calling from someone else that hurt me and made me decide whats the point to even give my opinion if it is going to be taken that way ..

Yall asked for respect from me ..I think respect should be showed towards me as well ...And name calling is just childish ....and gets us nowhere .

Goodnight ...

reply to post by Heike


Wow, great post man

Personally, I find it highly plausible that the people who deliberately infected homosexuals with HIV were themselves religious people trying to eliminate an "undesirable" and "sinful" segment of the population. There is, of course, no proof of that - it's just my opinion.

Whoa, lol... even I haven't gone that far, and I really don't like religion... But it could be possible...

reply to post by Heike




Ok I am sexually attracted to COPS in UNIFORM ..but I have never acted on that (In fear of going to jail LOL) ....I dont really like cops ..I just think some of them are sexy in their uniforms lol ....

As I said before ...it is the same thing in my opinion as Erotic Sex ..
And it gets fed through porn,etc ....that is the whole underlieing reason why people do kinky things sexually ...it is PURE LUST and sexual addictions from feeding that lust .... and I believe they all have the same affect on people ...addictions are the same ...you feed them they grow ...if you dont feed it it wont grow ..

if you dont act on it you cant get caught up in it ..

It is about control of your mind body and soul ..

Originally posted by AlexG141989
reply to post by Heike

 

Wow, great post man

Personally, I find it highly plausible that the people who deliberately infected homosexuals with HIV were themselves religious people trying to eliminate an "undesirable" and "sinful" segment of the population. There is, of course, no proof of that - it's just my opinion.

Whoa, lol... even I haven't gone that far, and I really don't like religion... But it could be possible...

Ok I would find that as a possibility too ...of course they would not have been Christains in my opinion but those who believed themselves to be Christians ...because I know I sure would not do something like that ..and I sure would not believe it to be ok for them to do something like that either.