It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Natural Selection and the Genetic Basis for Homosexuality

page: 8
5
<< 5  6  7    9  10  11 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 11:05 PM
link   
Hi Bigwhammy,

Before I answer your question i would like you to also consider some other scenarios in addition to homosexuality. To begin with male pseudo/ female pseudo hermaphrodites. They often result in a misconfiguration of sex as one would display characteristics of the opposite sex - these were not just limited to behavioral - but some also exhibits physical characteristics such as genitalia. Now this is due to genetic a genetic mutation. So I suppose it is somewhat safe to assume that homosexuality could be linked to genes - however it is true that some people turn gay after emotional trauma (which is not really genetic). They could both be true just like asthma can be inherited - or could be triggered by sudden exposure to an environmental stimulus.

As to why natural selection hasn't gotten rid of homosexuals. Well it has it's reason (a good one is the population control). But then again maby natural selection has tried in the past - (remember HIV used to be more common with homosexuals than heterosexuals, although this isn't true at present). Then again why hasn't natural selection gotten rid of cystic fibrosis yet?. It could just be a matter of time really. For natural selection to occur an environmental pressure that places heterosexuals over homosexuals needs to occur. Natural selection would not knit pick behavioral attributes at it's own whip until a reason to do so presents itself.

As to your statement of homosexuals appearing in the near present. Well it might not be true. They could have existed with the primitive man (or before). The reason there haven't been records of it could purely be due to social pressure. Homosexuality was looked down upon by a majority so such activities would be kept secret. even if known to the public; they would choose to omit such detail from written records as it would have been considered work of "a devil".




posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 11:42 PM
link   
This is my first post. So please excuse me, but I just have to wonder how many of you understand how genes work? I never made a choice to like females. it just came natural to me. Did I have my expermentation with the same sex in my learning years of course! Thats what all kids do, but it was not for me. This was not social pressure or anybody telling me who or what I should be. I like women! Now the type of woman I like could be and most likley is a product of my social upbringing. Now back to genetics. A human has dominate and recessive genes. For example: blue eyes are a recesive trait. Both parents have blue eyes the child will have blue eyes. If one parent has brown eyes and one blue.. this child could could have blue,green or brown eyes dependent on what gene was being covered up by a dom. brown gene in one of the parents. [this is a very simple ex. it get's a lot more complicateed] Now let's take somthing that I hope everybodys heard of, and thats sickle cell a it is a genetic defense aginst malaria if you only have one gene. If you get both recessive genes then it manifistes as sickle cell. On the otherhand why would anybody go the hell that gays go through by choice [unless there is an unknowen S&M gene]I cannot Imagine a person choosing this as a life style. Nature has a way of taking care of genetic defects! Hemophilics would die out if we let nature take it's course. Since females are sterile and most males would bleed to death before being able to reproduce. But we have evolved (read as regressed) into a society that feel everybody must reproduce regardless of their genetic defects.



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 11:42 PM
link   
reply to post by Heike
 


[homosexuals can because their difference doesn't lead to criminal or predatory behavior]

Do you happen to have any info on that ? Are they more violent than their neighbors ..are they mostly all law abiding citizens etc ?How do we know that they are not doing other sexual fantasies along with that one ?
And what age would yall consider them as not being a pedophile if they were to go about finding a date ? ..The reason I ask is because alot of states in our country have a legal consent of only 14 ....would you consider a gay man dating a gay teen of only 14 as non criminal acceptable non predatory behaviour ?Did you also know that a traveling citizen only has to be 12 to give consent ?
www.avert.org...
Seriously I am curious what have they studied and found about some of these questions ...

(This is not a condemnation or accusations ..it is just being curious on the statistics of my questions ?) ....



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 11:45 PM
link   



posted on Oct, 20 2008 @ 11:50 PM
link   
*I did not read the entire thread so this may have been said but,*

If homosexuality is actually caused by a genetic determinant it would quite possibly be due to random genetic mutations. This definately would not contradict Evolution due to the belief in homosexual geneticity. Evolution heavily depends on random mutations and in many cases they are succesful. In the case of homosexuality they are not, if mutations are the cause. Although I don't have any problems with homosexuality, it isn't a succesful alteration of the genes because in humans there is no way for two male gametes to produce a zygote. If your theory is that genetics are the cause of homosexuality than you are agreeing with a large part of the evolutionary factor, that genes mutate, and sunsurprisingly some genetic mutations are unproductive/harmful.


Medline



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 12:01 AM
link   
reply to post by MedLine
 


Well said!
thats what I was trying to say in my post.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 12:34 AM
link   

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Are they more violent than their neighbors ..are they mostly all law abiding citizens etc ?How do we know that they are not doing other sexual fantasies along with that one ?


In order to even ask these questions, you must assume that there is something "wrong" with homosexuals. Don't lots of heterosexuals have sexual fantasies? Don't heterosexuals indulge in all of the same "depravities" that homosexuals do?

So far as I can find, crime statistics by the sexual orientation of the offender are not separately reported. Of course it's late and I'm old, maybe I didn't look hard enough. But all my searches returned statistics on hate crimes against homosexuals, not crimes committed BY homosexuals.

But I'll try and line it out for you by simple logic. Necrophilia is attraction to people who are deceased. Acting on this preference requires either violation a dead body (a crime) or killing someone in order to utilize their body, which is of course also a crime.

Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. Some pedophiles prefer one gender over the other, some don't care as long as the child is young enough. Sexual interaction with a prepubescent child is a crime, period. Therefore a pedophile can NOT act on his preferences without committing a crime.

Homosexuals are attracted to their own gender, and it's common sense that most homosexual relationships are between two homosexuals - thus, normally, two consenting adults. Not a crime. Are homosexuals sometimes attracted to younger men, or boys? Yes. Are heterosexuals sometimes attracted to younger partners, boys or girls? Yes. So, what's the difference?

Why would sexual orientation have any impact on other types of crimes? Are you suggesting that homosexuals are more likely to be thieves or bank robbers, or what? If so, why? I personally can't see a probable cause-and-effect relationship between homosexuality and general crime.


And what age would yall consider them as not being a pedophile if they were to go about finding a date ?


By definition, anyone seeking a date with a child past puberty is not a pedophile.

Furthermore, all the fuss about 'preying on children' is a cultural value.


In parts of Ethiopia and Nigeria, over 50% of girls are married before the age of 15 and some girls are married as young as the age of 7.[2] In parts of Mali, 39% of girls are married before the age of 15. In Niger and Chad, over 70% of girls are married before the age of 18.[1] In South Africa, there are legal provisions made for respecting the marriage laws of traditional marriages whereby a person might be married as young as 12 for females and 14 for males.
Source


Thirty years ago, the renowned sexologist R.E.L. Masters and Allan Edwardes said in their study of Afro-Asian sexual expression (_The Cradle of Erotica_, Julian Press, New York:1962) said, "Today, in many parts of North Africa, Arabia, and India, girls are wedded and bedded between the ages of five and nine; and no self-respecting female remains unmarried beyond the age of puberty."
Source

Why all the focus on homosexuals preying on boys? Heterosexual men preying on girls is astronomically more common, so why is all the outrage directed at the Gays who seek out young partners? It does not make sense.

Are men who seek out young girls for sex not just as wrong? And yet, in other countries, cultures, and even religions the mating of an adult male to a female child is acceptable and condoned. It's a double standard.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 09:12 AM
link   
You brought it up ..it was you who said this
[homosexuals can because their difference doesn't lead to criminal or predatory behavior]

I just want to know what your basing this assumption on ..Do you have anything that can back it up ?Any statistics at all would do .

I believe that if they seek out a boy or girl who is only 14 even though the law says they are of age for consent ....is seriously bordering on pedophile behaviour which would be (In my opinion) criminal and predatory behaviour .
(Once again I am not accusing anyone of anything I would just like to see some statistics on this ) ..

I mean most of the Priests and Preachers (who we all agree are pedophiles) seek out young boys ..so I am pretty sure it is not just priests who prefer boys .
These are GAY men who are doing this to those boys ...they are not heterosexuals .



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 09:58 AM
link   

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You brought it up ..it was you who said this
[homosexuals can because their difference doesn't lead to criminal or predatory behavior]
I just want to know what your basing this assumption on ..Do you have anything that can back it up ?Any statistics at all would do .


I thought I explained this very clearly and simply. Please tell me what grade level I need to drop to for you to understand and I'll try.

Sexual relations with a corpse is a crime. Sexual relations with a prepubescent child is a crime. Sexual relations with a person of the same gender is not. How can you not see the point?

Necrophiliacs and Pedophiles have only 2 choices: be celibate or be a criminal. Homosexuals can fulfill their desires without being criminals.

Necrophilia and Pedophilia INVARIABLY and WITHOUT EXCEPTION lead to criminal acts if acted upon. Homosexuality does not.

Why do you need "statistics" for this? Can't you comprehend plain and simple LOGIC?


I believe that if they seek out a boy or girl who is only 14 even though the law says they are of age for consent ....is seriously bordering on pedophile behaviour which would be (In my opinion) criminal and predatory behaviour .


In YOUR opinion.. not most of the world .. but your opinion. Okay. So what? Your point is? I never said or implied that homosexuals are not capable of criminal or predatory behavior. I said that their *difference* (homosexuality) doesn't *lead to* criminal or predatory behavior. In other words, the expression of homosexuality does not require criminal behavior. Homosexuals do not HAVE to prey on children or kill people in order to find sexual gratification. Again, why are you so focused on homosexuals? What is the difference between heterosexuals preying on (ages 12 and up) "children" and homosexuals doing the same thing? I don't claim they're saints or angels, I simply claim that being homosexual does not make them intrinsically any worse than heterosexuals.


These are GAY men who are doing this to those boys ...they are not heterosexuals .


Gay men are doing what to boys? Where? Do you have some statistics? Do you have statistics to prove that boys are victimized by gay men more often than girls are victimized by straight men? No? Then you don't really have a point, do you?

WHY are you so worried about what gay men are doing with boys and not concerned about what straight men are doing with girls? The case you have so far is "homosexuals are NO BETTER THAN heterosexuals." Of course they aren't (in general terms). But you haven't made a single point that indicates that homosexuals are ANY WORSE THAN heterosexuals.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:07 AM
link   
In my eyes I see gay as anyone (even if considered a straight person) who likes sex with the same gender as being a gay person .
(that would include bisexuals )
What am I missing here ?



[edit on 21-10-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:08 AM
link   
Bigwhammy

If this is a,

This is not a moral or religious statement of any sort . It is a purely scientific question.

Why do you then go on to say,

And on the wiki article on homosexuality, they Gay rights movement is attempting to assert that homosexuality has a genetic origin:


By saying 'attempting' you have brought your own morals into the debate.You have nailed your views to the mast,therefore it is not a purely scientific question.



Simplynoone



These are GAY men who are doing this to those boys ...they are not heterosexuals .


I'm afraid you're wrong.

In any serious study on pedophilia the abuse is referred to as male-male molestation and male-female molestation.

You will find that the distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation.

They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults,either men or women.Instead,their sexual attractions focus on children – boys,girls,or children of both sexes.
www.belowtopsecret.com...



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:23 AM
link   
I would like to know how yall determine then who is a homosexual and who is not .


Are there any certain traits or whatever that determines who is or who isnt a homosexual ?


For instance ..why dont you consider a bisexual person as a homosexual too ?

Is a homosexual just someone who only prefers their same gender ?

If a male priest does not like to have sex with women and only has sex with males (boys and grown men) Is he a pedophile or a homosexual pedophile ?



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:43 AM
link   
reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


You do bring up an interesting question though.And asmeone2's statement below,shouldn't be dismissed so easily.



One theory that's been presented is that homosexuality is a natural safeguard against overpopulation. When a sort of critical mass is reached, the "Gay gene" if we can call it that, is triggered, thereby encouraging the population level to become more managible.


Especially when you take Darwin's opinions into account.


Natural selection is a process that occurs over successive generations.If all the offspring that organisms can produce were to survive and reproduce, they would soon overrun the earth. Darwin illustrated this point by a calculation using elephants.He wrote:"The elephant is reckoned the slowest breeder of all known animals,and I have taken some pains to estimate its probable minimum rate of natural increase;it will be safest to assume that it begins breeding when 30 years old and goes on breeding until 90 years old; if this be so,after a period from 740 to 750 years there would be nearly 19 million elephants descended from this first pair."

www.globalchange.umich.edu...



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:59 AM
link   
reply to post by Simplynoone
 


A bisexual is a person sexually responsive to both sexes,homosexuals respond only to the same sex.

In the UK a pedophile is classed as someone who attacks children aged 13 and under.Having sexual relations with a kid aged 14-16,that is consented to by both participants,means you can be done under the statutory rape laws,but you are not classed as a pedophile.

As you've already been told,a pedophile has to break the law to fulfill his urges,homosexuals and bisexuals do not.Just as hetrosexuals don't,but it happens on occassion with consensual sex,thats why we have statutory rape laws.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:59 AM
link   

Originally posted by Simplynoone
If a male priest does not like to have sex with women and only has sex with males (boys and grown men) Is he a pedophile or a homosexual pedophile?


You keep asking a question, ignoring the answer, and then asking the same question a different way trying to get the answer you want.

Puberty does not happen at the exact same age for everyone, so it's hard to set an exact age. But let's pretend for the sake of the discussion that it's 12. There is a hypothesis that says that the critical factor for some pedophiles is the lack of pubic and body hair, so physiological "maturity" is more important than chronological age. But for the sake of making the point, we'll say puberty occurs at 12.

Men who are attracted to children under 12 are pedophiles. Men who are attracted to other men and/or boys over 12 are homosexuals.

A man who is attracted to boys and men of any age would be something undefined as far as I know although there's probably a word for it in some medical journal somewhere. He isn't really a pedophile because he doesn't ONLY prefer children under 12, and he isn't really a homosexual because homosexuals are attracted to men (and possibly boys over 12.)

Homosexuals are not pedophiles. Pedophiles are not homosexuals. Now can we get back to the topic here yet?



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 11:05 AM
link   
Homosexuality as far as I have been able to determine is triggered by population density.

The denser the population the higher the ratio of homosexuals... its how it works in a lot of colony animals and there is no reason to think the same forces are at play in humans... it is a genetic form of population control.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 11:25 AM
link   
What someone is physically attracted to is determined by body and neuro-chemistry, right? Wouldn't that indicate the homosexuality and bisexuality would be caused a chemical imbalance as opposed to a genetic factor?



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 11:29 AM
link   
[Men who are attracted to children under 12 are pedophiles. Men who are attracted to other men and/or boys over 12 are homosexuals.]

None of that makes any sense to me at all .Just because the law says a certain age is ok ..doesnt make it ok morally speaking ....

Me personally cannot even consider dating someone who is 18 when I am 48 years old ..It would feel like I was a pedophile if I were to date even an 18 year old boy .Or even a 30 yr old man ....(way too immature for me to have any kind of serious relationship with) ...even at 52 the men I know are still immature ....
And if I was 18 and I wanted a 12 year old (pubic hairs or not) would make me feel like a child molester .What would you a homosexual think of me (Even if I was only 18) a heterosexual female having sexual relations with a your son if he was the 12 year old ?Would you approve of that ?


And seriously your trying to tell me that homosexuals have never had a lover of the opposite sex ? And that they do not desire the opposite sex at all .?
I dont believe that .



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 11:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by Simplynoone
[Men who are attracted to children under 12 are pedophiles. Men who are attracted to other men and/or boys over 12 are homosexuals.]

None of that makes any sense to me at all .Just because the law says a certain age is ok ..doesnt make it ok morally speaking ....


But we are not morally speaking. We're talking about classifications.


And seriously your trying to tell me that homosexuals have never had a lover of the opposite sex ? And that they do not desire the opposite sex at all .?
I dont believe that .


No, that's not what it means. The terms homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual are not retrospective.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 11:39 AM
link   
reply to post by Simplynoone
 




And seriously your trying to tell me that homosexuals have never had a lover of the opposite sex ? And that they do not desire the opposite sex at all .?


Many have,usually because they are unsure at first,others because their afraid of telling people they are gay.

From the time of my sexual awakening,11-12,i have never desired the opposite sex.I love men and will quite happily point out the attractive ones.But that's an only an observation of what pleases the eye,kinda like a painting.The thought of doing anything sexual with a guy though...well,lets just say,the feeling is definatly the opposite of desire.lol.Friendship is all i've ever wanted out of the opposite sex.Why is that so difficult to believe??



new topics

top topics



 
5
<< 5  6  7    9  10  11 >>

log in

join