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Natural Selection and the Genetic Basis for Homosexuality

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posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by Heike
 


Tons of good points...

but disagree with the population factor, If this were true India would be the hot bed of Fashion and Style




posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 


It is your Christian belief that homosexuality is sin right? And heterosexuality is not? I don't mean any additional extensions of sexual acts like adultery, rape, etc etc. I just mean the orientations themselves. Homosexuality is sin?

If you believe it's sin do you believe its your duty as a Christian to discourage it in others? Christians are supposed to spread the Gospel right?

Also, do you support Gay Marriage? Civil Unions? Would you vote in its favor or against?

Do you agree with the Military's stance on homosexuality within the military?

Do you agree or disagree that homosexuals should be able to adopt?

Thanks in advance if you answer my questions, and thanks for answering my other ones.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by Simplynoone
To add, I am glad you would rather ask questions than just go by what you've heard. I swear, for about the first year that I came out to my parents, everytime I talked to mom, she had a list of questions she had thought of since our last talk. I didn't mind it at all.



LOL! That's funny, my mom did the same thing. My dad... he doesn't want to hear about any of his daughters sex lives.


[edit on 10/21/08 by Skamindy77]



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by mopusvindictus
 


Well homosexuality is illegal in India and discrimination against homosexuals is not.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by Deaf Alien
 


So are you alluding to the fact that it could be prevalent in India, but in response to the discrimination they are under that it is primarily hidden?



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by Deaf Alien
 


Yeah but realistically, you can't keep a tide of people down by sheer force or rule...

If that was the case we would have managed to eliminate prostitution... sex itself in many places would be nonexistant given religous beliefs...

India is so dense, that if the population theory (alone) could account for homosexuality, then this would be a major conflict within the culture...

I could think of other locations where the poulation is very dense and you don't see homosexuality very prevalent

New Jersey... densest state in the Union, Manhattan has a large Gay community, Jersey? Sure there are Gay people in jersey but... it's just not a very Homosexual State...

The culture is Macho, but not to a degree that Homosexuals would Fear it or refuse to come out of the closet...

I still say culture and upbring and social norms and exposure have alot more to do with it...

I think the reason people won't admit this and look for a genetic basis is...if it was common knowledge... that Homosexuality could be Caused, Homosexuals might face alot more problems and looking for a Genetic basis is a way to disarm that.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
 


Yes. In response to mopusvindictus' post


but disagree with the population factor, If this were true India would be the hot bed of Fashion and Style

We will not know how many homosexuals there are in India until the law is repealed and homosexuals are more accepted.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:24 PM
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I used india for a reason,

In essence you will find very few homosexuals in India because the spititual nature of Hinduism and other practices encourage meditation and changes to the state of inner being...

Unlike in the west where we choose to want write aspects of ourself in stone, your typical Indian has more of an open mind to dynamism of personality.

In Tantra, you are encouraged to switch sex roles between masculine and feminine during sessions with your lover... it is important to understand Male and Female sexuality to be a good lover... so in this, the concept of a single driven sexual nature, simply doesn't exist

You also don't see very wide spread "homosexuality" in China (although more so than India...

The Eastern belief systems as a whole are simply more fluid, people more commonly can entertain dynamic sexuality in which they control and choose how they desire

It is largely a Western Thing for Homosexuality to exists

In some cultures until recently, like Greece and Brazil... it is perfectly heterosexual to take a man... but Homosexual to be taken, it is dominance and submission as it was in Sparta, but not aside from the sex act what in America we would call "homosexuality"

The West is to a degree largely alone in the issue of "gay culture" It is a limitation of our thinking not to diofferent from the way Asians see things over time and Americans live for the here and now...

The mind is everything, particularly sexually



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:36 PM
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First I'd like someone to name one medical condition that has EVER been cured. None. Nada. Zilch. Not one. Cancer? No. Viruses? No (there ARE vaccines, but no cure). Disabliities? No. None have ever been cured. Same goes for mental disorders. None have ever been cured. There is no pill, no treatment that had ever been developed to cured. Treatments, yes. Cures, no. Name one, and I'll change my mind on that.
Having said that, there are many theories as to "why" people are gay. It is a genetic disorder. Hormones in the womb. Stress on the mother. Choice (personally, I'd only agree to this when it comes to behavior, not impulses or orientation).
I don't think it matters "why" people are gay, so much as people learn to accept that people are. People don't like to accept others who are different than them. Fact. It's been like that throughout the history of mankind. Whatever the difference. Religion. Skin color. Gender. You name it. Humanity has difficulty accepting it.
Personally, I think that the One theory that's been presented is that theory that homosexuality is a natural safeguard against overpopulation, sounds very plausable. I don't think it really matters though, as a gay person, you arent' going to change me. Believe me, I've tried.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone . . .
Just so yall know ..I am different too ...in many ways ..(I dont like any sex) not that I am celebate because I am not ....
(I am thinking I could also have some sort of genetic defect ) which is one reason why I ask so many questions from everyone about sex ..
I feel like it is so totally physical that I actually hate it because of that .(Always have even before knowing anything about sex)
. . .


There are many different types of sexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, lesbianism, homosexuality and asexuality being the most common.

It could be that you just happened to be born asexual.
This is not a defect, any more than the others I listed are, it is merely a difference.
On the other hand, I have known several women who believed they were asexual, only to eventually discover they were lesbians, and were only really happy being intimate with other women.

You suggested to a gay person they try with the opposite sex again to double check their orientation. Perhaps you should try your own advice and experiment with another woman.


Re evolution, humans evolution is complex. Individually humans are weak, lacking in claws and fur. Human evolution is not merely about the survival of the individual, it is about the survival of the social group. Thus any genetic variation which aids the survival of the social group will be passed on, even though some individuals with it are not propagating their own DNA.

It's possible that middle aged women losing their fertility is one such trait. The woman becomes unable to breed, so her focus is not always on her own children. Thus she can be a healer, teacher and guide to her group.

Homosexual men may have a similar positive effect on the tribe as a whole.

If you feel homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so, you need to look at all the laws in the Old Testament, and work out why this issue is pushed so hard while other Levitican rules are classed as outdated and irrelevant.

And while you are at it, read the beautiful love story of David and Saul.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by mopusvindictus
In essence you will find very few homosexuals in India because the spititual nature of Hinduism and other practices encourage meditation and changes to the state of inner being...


I usually agree with your thoughts.

I am hesitant to agree with this one! Although I admit I am not sure what you are getting at.

I have been a long time practitioner of Ashtanga and Kundalini Yoga. I embrace Bhagavad Gita philosophy, and some Vedic scripture (as well as Taoist philosophy). I am an even longer practitioner of mediation and lucid dreaming. I also chose the vegetarian diet for moral and spiritual purposes (a fairly common Indian approach).

Are you suggesting these practices changes a person in such a way that they are no longer a homosexual? Act on it less? Just less sexual in general? Would this not also apply to heterosexuals? What did you mean?


**Edit: I reread your post and I think I see what you are getting at. That through certain Eastern practices, such as tantric yoga, one transcends orientation altogether, and is able to switch their orientations?

Well I am bisexual and I practice tantric yoga. So not sure if it was the chicken or the egg heh..

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by mopusvindictus
 




You also don't see very wide spread "homosexuality" in China (although more so than India...


Its not that it isn't widespread,its just that it isn't being debated about every single day.

In Confucianism,for example,loving and sexual relations between individuals of the same sex have been traditionally accepted as long as they do not impede fulfilling one's obligations to the family and the state.(getting married
and having a son and heir)In states that follow Confucianism non-exclusive homosexuality is permissible and widely practiced.

When it comes to sex most eastern countries still have the traditional values of not talking about it and keeping it behind closed doors.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 06:49 PM
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you probably don't see homosexuality in china because the government won't let you!!! Jeez. They either cover up, or kill those that are. Just like the former soviet union did. They denied they even had an Aids crisis until recently. China did the same thing. I'd be willing to bet that homosexuality is everywhere. People deny it, you can deny it all you want. Fact is, it's there. Women don't want to believe that thier husbands are out having sex with other men, but they are. How many so-called Right-wing republicans have been caught doing homosexual things in the last year or two? My point is, it's there, people just deny it.



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 09:25 PM
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[Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy]

[It is your Christian belief that homosexuality is sin right? And heterosexuality is not? I don't mean any additional extensions of sexual acts like adultery, rape, etc etc. I just mean the orientations themselves. Homosexuality is sin?]

I think all sexual encounters without wanting to procreate may be wrong IF it is just for pleasure pleasure pleasure .(sure once in awhile is ok ) (yeah I know I am strange LOL) .......humans tend to overindulge in sex just like anything ..And the more you feed that lust (fleshly desire) it grows ..and most men and women it ends up being more of a habit (to feed the needs of the flesh not the spirit) and then it gets boring which is why some stray and look on the other side of the fence for something more ..then it leads to wanting more (porn) and more (threesomes or maybe even two side flings or more ..or prostitution ..etc etc ... ..they are not only feeding that flesh lust but also feeding a beast (spiritual) inside of them which means it is also a spiritual problem .....which is really the same thing as what promiscuous people do .which I believe promiscious people will be in the same boat that yall may be in (Biblically speaking anyway ) . but to me all the same thing they are sinning against their own body with the steady feeding of the flesh lusty sexual desires which the end results are death is what the word says ...because of so many reasons ..one being disease the other promiscuity ... ... my point ..feeding the lust of the flesh over endulging in it is the sin .
All I know is the bible says your sinning against your own body when it is a man with a man and woman with a woman .......I am not exactly why it is sinning against your body ..all I can do is guess that it is because it is not natural and will have serious consequences to the body .(at least thats what I think as a possibility) ...
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

[If you believe it's sin do you believe its your duty as a Christian to discourage it in others? Christians are supposed to spread the Gospel right?]

Maybe not discourage them ..but at least let them know what the word says about it in case they have never heard it that is all my duty is to plant a seed to cause them to think about it more than they may have ...I know drug addicts and alcoholics and bisexuals and young 20 yr olds who think its ok to just destroy themselves and drink and drug all they want to ..I try my best to at least warn them where they are heading and what to expect if they keep on going ..I wouldnt tell them hell ... but hell on earth through the lifestyle they lead ..because it is not for me to decide who should or would go to heaven or hell and I would not tell them they are since I would not know what God has planned for them or what their choices will be before they die ........

[Also, do you support Gay Marriage? Civil Unions? Would you vote in its favor or against?]

I dont know that I would be a part of voting on it ..(I dont vote anyway)..but I would not care nor be against them getting married ..the way I see it ...thats between them and God and just because the state may approve doesnt mean God will and even if a preacher said sure I will marry you under God ..doesnt mean God approves it either ..So what does it matter ? ..The state approves almost everything anything ..so why not that ?
besides I dont care what people do in their personal lives ..that is their business ....And maybe if they did allow it ..it would not be so heated and so out there (The Gay Parades etc ) it would all die down and yall could just go on and live your lives and so could the heteros ....I would like that myself ...for it to all just die down and not get so hot and hateful ..whats the point with all the parades and the violence on both sides ..it just causes more rebellion and cause all to push a little harder even ....and could end up a civil war ..Well it pretty much already has ..at least with words on ALL SIDES >

[Do you agree with the Military's stance on homosexuality within the military?]
Why would it matter what your sexual preference is in the Military ? It would not matter to me ...

[Do you agree or disagree that homosexuals should be able to adopt?]

I dont know ..I never really thought about that ..but alot of fathers are Gay and alot of Mothers are Lesbians (Married already before)and they do not seem to be bad parents ....I dont see what that would matter if they had kids or not ..or if they were allowed to adopt ...alot of kids need homes bad ...and I would be thrilled for one of them to at least have a home with parents who will love them .....As long as they were good parents and considered their children more than their own selves (which alot of hetro parents do not even do that ) ....I dont think it really matters much one way or the other ...the only troubles I see is the child would be sort of confused about having two moms or two dads ..and I am also thinking maybe that child would be homosexual too just because thats what they would think they are supposed to do because of seeing it that way in their house ..(I married a wife beater twice because I watched my mom get beat and just thought that was supposed to be that way for me even ) ...so it does happen where what you see is what you will do too thinking it is normal ( I really did think all men beat their wives because so many of the men did that I knew ) ..............



You asked and I gave you honest answers
I hope none of it upsets you ..



[edit on 21-10-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by jakyll
 



Here is what Wiki says about China ..
All major religions in ancient China have some sort of codex, which have traditionally been interpreted as being against exclusive homosexuality when it interferes with continuation of the family lineage. For example the Confucians have the codex that a man should behave according to somewhat traditional male gender roles and a woman likewise. So, for example, crossdressing is a deed that is against the Confucian natural law.

There were some historical accounts of emperors who used to dress themselves in women's clothes, and this was always interpreted as an ill omen; and to beget children (especially sons) is a very important duty for a man in traditional Chinese society. So a man who only has male lovers is not dutiful. Taoism emphasizes maintaining the balance between Yin and Yang. A man-man relation is thought to be a Yang-Yang relation and so is imbalanced and destructive.

But on the other hand, none of the major Chinese religions consider homosexual acts as sin as many Christian churches do. Compared to sin in Christian culture, the list of sinful deeds in the codex of Confucianism does not include homosexuality. As long as a man does his duty and sires children, it is his private affair to have other male lovers.
The rest at LINK
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 10:11 PM
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And in India

Religion has played a significant role in shaping Indian customs and traditions. While homosexuality has not been explicitly mentioned in the religious texts central to Hinduism, the largest religion in India, some interpretations have been viewed as condemning homosexuality.[6] Scholars differ in their views of the position of homosexuality within India's main religious traditions. There have been arguments that homosexuality was both prevalent and accepted in ancient Hindu society.[7]

Sexual acts 'against the order of nature' remain illegal in India, though the government no longer seeks to prosecute adults engaging in private consensual homosexual acts (as per the Home Ministry's legal affidavit in the Delhi High Court). However, harassment and blackmail of gay men and women is not uncommon. According to some estimates, at least 50 lesbian couples have committed suicide in the past 5 years, due to general disapproval from their parents and / or society. In recent years, the campaign to decriminalize homosexuality has strengthened. Campaigners emphasize both human rights and health issues, particularly the need to disseminate information about HIV/AIDS.

The Rest at link
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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reply to post by mopusvindictus
 


In Sociology 101, we learned that England and Holland had more people per square mile than India. Thats actually a misconception. We were told to list 4 countries in order of population (Brazil, India, Holland and England) then in terms of wealth, just to free our minds from the normal perception that poverty was a population thing.

My friend from Holland had far more gay friends there than she ever met in BC.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 02:10 AM
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I've been extremely hesitant to enter this topic. BigWhammy brought up excellent points and arguments but ultimately seemed to have trouble accepting alternative views and theories. SimplyNoone entered the topic fueled by her beliefs that homosexuality was wrong but never once said anything negative personally about homosexuals as individuals or a group, and has been insulted and ridiculed by the same people who previously defended their sexual orientation while being insulted and ridiculed. I also can't believe someone really said "It is too bad gays didn't reproduce more often. The intelligence of society would probably rise a few points." while arguing about the equality between homo- and hetero-sexuals. There have been many hypocritical posts throughout the whole thread, and yes, from both sides.

Before the labels of "bigot", "ignorant" and "homophobe" get thrown around as easily as they normally do, I'll begin by taking my "defense positions". I am straight, I am not religious, I've read the entire thread, I have a lesbian friend (and she's not fauxmo-sexual either). I have nothing against gay people or gay sex. I am undecided on gay marriage. I personally believe homosexuality is unnatural but harmless. And I also want to say that I am very proud that ATS is allowing this discussion to exist and I am also happy that there are quite a few that are still being respectful to others in this thread.

I believe homosexuality is unnatural. I can understand why that offends some, but it doesn't have to be taken negatively because it does not imply that it is a bad thing. We naturally reproduce sexually and also enjoy sex as a pleasure. Our natural instincts tell us to seek out an attractive mate of the opposite sex to reproduce and sometimes we form familial and sexual bonds with them. Since humans of the same sex cannot reproduce together, it is unnatural, in that way, as a homosexual, something is "broke". You are not wired correctly. But I have to also look at the other part of this, sex being a pleasuring activity. The gain from this being the fulfilling of sexual urges and it can also relieve stress. Because the same sex can enjoy sex with each other, there wouldn't be anything wrong with being a homosexual. It could very well be that a homosexual has just evolved to let go of those instincts. But in that theory, it would make more sense for one to be bisexual, in order to increase our field of possible sexual partners.

I believe that our orientation is wired from birth, and I don't think environments and experiences would influence orientation very much. However, I wouldn't technically say that you are born gay or straight, since children do not have a sexual attraction to each other.. instead it makes more sense to me to say that you are programmed to be a homosexual or heterosexual (or bisexual). While it IS a choice to have sex and who you have sex with, I don't believe it is a choice when it comes to what gender you are attracted to. Whether its genetics or an imbalance, I don't know. I DO know that I was born with autism, and I certainly didn't choose it. In this way I feel I can empathize with homosexuals a little.

BigWhammy made several valid points that were dismissed early on that I want to bring back. Anal sex is more predominate in homosexual sex than heterosexual sex, the tissue of the anus is thin and can be torn much more easily than the thick tissue of the vagina, which makes the partner more susceptible to diseases and infections passed on through bodily fluids. Also, the possibility of pregnancy is not there so homosexual partners may be less willing to use condoms. I don't know why it was disputed, it is factually true that the majority of HIV/AIDS carriers are male homosexuals. You can check with the CDC on that.

I also wanted to address the issue of large communities not having a significantly increased homosexual presence. I could be mistaken but it looked like a few didn't understand the reason it was being addressed. It's in reference to the theory that homosexuality is an evolutionary response to halt overpopulation, and that if it were true, we should see a significant increase in homosexual presence in highly populated areas. I don't know if anyone has actually checked the numbers on that or not but I'd be interested in finding out. I thought the theory was really interesting.

I just wanted to end this post by saying that the whole intention of everything I've written is to add to the idea that homosexuality is unnatural. In no way do I mean to offend or have hopes of "converting" someone.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by MrAndy
 




I just wanted to end this post by saying that the whole intention of everything I've written is to add to the idea that homosexuality is unnatural. In no way do I mean to offend or have hopes of "converting" someone.


That's all well and fine. You have the right to believe whatever you want. The real problem is that some people want to control people's lives based on their beliefs. I believe that is where the real problem lies.

So many homosexuals have been prosecuted, killed, harassed, jailed, being told that their lifestyle is sick and should be changed, etc, etc. We are here to prevent that from happening and to defend our freedom to our sexuality.

Like I always say, religious people should keep their beliefs in churches and themselves. Non-religious people who believe that homosexuality is "unnatural" should keep to themselves unless brought up in debate or when asked.

If it was permissible to discriminate, harass, jail, and kill homosexuals, then where will it end? Where will the line be drawn? History has shown that without acceptance, the "undesirables," i.e. homosexuals, mentally retarded, different races, lower classes, etc. have always been treated badly.



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 03:00 AM
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It is unnatural. It's as unnatural as domesticating wild animals, selective breeding, GM etc etc. But it's not inherently 'wrong' or immoral as so many people would argue. That's why homosexual persecution is unjustified.



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