reply to post by Jemison
Very interesting. Thanks for the update. The last 2 years, I've gotten the shot and I usually feel tired after and find mild muscle stiffness at the
injection site but no big deal. I do think that's better than dealing with the flu for a week or so.
I have to admit. I think I'm more confused by this issue now than I was before I started this thread. More informed though, too. So I guess better
off. LOL.
Should we get the flu vaccine?, page 4
privacy
Last year my entire family had the
flu, a house full of germs and i didn't get a sniffle *shrugs*.reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 10:34 AM by Amaterasu
Originally posted by Static Sky
reply to post by Amaterasu
You make some very good arguements. And you've done a terrific job presenting them. Thank you very much for your quality in this thread.
You're most welcome. I know it can be confusing, all of this, but once you start thinking about what you would do if you loved money more than humanity, and had a pharmaceutical company to run, you begin to see clear signs that something is amiss.
You see that a large effort is made through advertising and "studies" that are overtly or covertly done by such companies, and you begin to question the advisability of injecting things into your bloodstream.
It is a fact that mercury is in most vaccines, regardless of the label. And mercury, in ANY amount, is toxic - let alone running through your veins.
Formaldehyde, in the form that is in virtually all vaccines, is scary stuff, too. If you don't want a small amount to pass your lips, why would it be ok to pump it into your veins?
On top of that, there are many other things which might seem ok - because one can ingest them orally - that the body is very ill-equipped (no pun) to handle through the unnatural ingestion of injection.
For this reason I advise people not to inject any vaccines - or ingest them in any way without knowing fully what is in them and what those things do.
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 10:59 AM by Static Sky
reply to post by Artista
Hi Artista. Thanks for sharing. I like how you covered points for both sides. At this time, I think I'm leaning towards skipping it for myself. My wife will get hers, I know. And I'm okay with that as it's her choice. I'm still wondering about our toddler son, though.
I know my wife wants him to get it and I'm somewhat leaning that way too. Daycare is almost a flu guarentee and we both work at a smaller place that can't really afford us to miss any work. Winter is our busy season. Thanks again for your thoughts. Take care.
Hi Artista. Thanks for sharing. I like how you covered points for both sides. At this time, I think I'm leaning towards skipping it for myself. My wife will get hers, I know. And I'm okay with that as it's her choice. I'm still wondering about our toddler son, though.
I know my wife wants him to get it and I'm somewhat leaning that way too. Daycare is almost a flu guarentee and we both work at a smaller place that can't really afford us to miss any work. Winter is our busy season. Thanks again for your thoughts. Take care.
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 11:38 AM by Static Sky
reply to post by SIRR1
Great post and from a relevant point of view. I'm really not very worried about the microchip conspiracy idea. I think it's hogwash. But my eyes have been opened to the fact that there are some ingredients in some of the vaccines that I really don't want in my body. Can you recommend a brand that would have the least amount of these questionable ingredients, or are they all pretty much the same?
Thanks again for taking the time to share your opinions on this thread. Be well.
Great post and from a relevant point of view. I'm really not very worried about the microchip conspiracy idea. I think it's hogwash. But my eyes have been opened to the fact that there are some ingredients in some of the vaccines that I really don't want in my body. Can you recommend a brand that would have the least amount of these questionable ingredients, or are they all pretty much the same?
Thanks again for taking the time to share your opinions on this thread. Be well.
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 11:54 AM by asmeone2
reply to post by SIRR1
I'm not sure that's true though... I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your medical experience, but looking at this from a pathological point of view...
A virus is a specific combination of proteins. For flue they name them with Ns and Hs. Let's use H1N5 since everyone is familiar with that.
A vaccine is like locking a door. It's made to stop a specific strain.
So a vaccination for H1N5 is going to, in theory, stop H1N5.
It's misinformation to say that getting a flu shot is going to stop people from getting sick period. If we take the companies at their word, it gives them immunity for certain flu strains--typically the previous years.
It won't cover any mutations that have cropped up since that batch was released.
It's especially disinformative to say that a flu shot will protect a person from a pandemic. If it does happen to be H1N5, a normal flu shot won't protect from that, since it isn't keyed to.
Most likely the next pandemic won't be anything we are familiar with at all, though. It would be some new influenza strain that takes off like wildfire within humans specifically because we have not had it, and have no natural immunities. That's if it's even flu at all--there's a whole host of other diseases, viral or not, with a higher mortality rate or communicability rate that we don't have any vaccine or cure fore, period.
Edit to add: Yes I've had that kind of infection... I had a pleural infection after a bad bout of the flu... certainly wasn't fun. Ranked up there on my "most painful" list.
[edit on 17-10-2008 by asmeone2]
I'm not sure that's true though... I'm not trying to be disrespectful to your medical experience, but looking at this from a pathological point of view...
A virus is a specific combination of proteins. For flue they name them with Ns and Hs. Let's use H1N5 since everyone is familiar with that.
A vaccine is like locking a door. It's made to stop a specific strain.
So a vaccination for H1N5 is going to, in theory, stop H1N5.
It's misinformation to say that getting a flu shot is going to stop people from getting sick period. If we take the companies at their word, it gives them immunity for certain flu strains--typically the previous years.
It won't cover any mutations that have cropped up since that batch was released.
It's especially disinformative to say that a flu shot will protect a person from a pandemic. If it does happen to be H1N5, a normal flu shot won't protect from that, since it isn't keyed to.
Most likely the next pandemic won't be anything we are familiar with at all, though. It would be some new influenza strain that takes off like wildfire within humans specifically because we have not had it, and have no natural immunities. That's if it's even flu at all--there's a whole host of other diseases, viral or not, with a higher mortality rate or communicability rate that we don't have any vaccine or cure fore, period.
Edit to add: Yes I've had that kind of infection... I had a pleural infection after a bad bout of the flu... certainly wasn't fun. Ranked up there on my "most painful" list.
[edit on 17-10-2008 by asmeone2]
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 02:19 PM by SIRR1
Originally posted by Static Sky
reply to post by SIRR1
Great post and from a relevant point of view. I'm really not very worried about the microchip conspiracy idea. I think it's hogwash. But my eyes have been opened to the fact that there are some ingredients in some of the vaccines that I really don't want in my body. Can you recommend a brand that would have the least amount of these questionable ingredients, or are they all pretty much the same?
Thanks again for taking the time to share your opinions on this thread. Be well.
Here is a breakdown of this years vaccine, Ingredients and known adverse reactions.
All inflenzia vaccines IMHO will containe pretty much the same ingredients due to CDC guidelines, the only other choice would be the "flumist" form of vaccine.
"flumist" is a live vaccine and it's sprayed up your nasal cannal and does not contain preservatives, so this might be the way to go for your vaccine.
Influenza Virus Vaccine
Flulaval 2008/2009 formula
Single dose 0.5ml
GlaxoSmithKline
Each 0.5ml dose contains 15 mcg hemagglutinin (HA) of each of the following influenza virus strains recommended for the 2008-2009 season.
A/Brisbane/59/2007 (H1N1)-like virus
A/Brisbane/59/2007 IVR-148.
A/Brisbane/10/2007 (H3N2) – like virus
A/Uruguay/216/2007 NYMC X-175
B/Florida/4/2006 – like virus
B/Florida/4/2006
Thimerosal (25mcg mercury/dose as a preservative).
The vaccine is prepared in eggs.
Each dose contains very low concentrations of formaldehyde
(
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 02:31 PM by Static Sky
reply to post by SIRR1
Great information! Thank you very much again, for taking the time to post. Those are some interesting numbers as far as reactions in the first 4 days after vaccination are concerned. And the specific symptoms suggest to me I have some more reading to do. Thanks again. Be well.
Great information! Thank you very much again, for taking the time to post. Those are some interesting numbers as far as reactions in the first 4 days after vaccination are concerned. And the specific symptoms suggest to me I have some more reading to do. Thanks again. Be well.
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 02:34 PM by americandingbat
ATS is pretty heavily anti-vaccination, at least the members who are interested in the topic. And it's not hard to see why people are wary of
believing anything the drug companies say. I happen to believe that most doctors are not in the profession to make money (unless we're talking about
upscale plastic surgeons or something), and are genuinely concerned with what's best for their patients.
When I answered before I didn't know two things: that you have a young child and that it is important to you to avoid being sick.
The second may sound stupid, but I think there's different levels of wanting to avoid sickness. Certainly, there are different economic considerations, so you have to take into account things like your health coverage and sick leave policy at work.
Anything you put into your body carries a risk. As the parent of a young child in daycare, you are very likely to be exposed to flu virus; getting the flu is also likely to be far more of a hardship for you than for someone like me who would not have to cope with a sick infant as well. These are all factors to keep in mind.
Here's the link to the CDC statement on Guillain-Barre Syndrome and flu. Basically, in 1976 there were several cases of GBS linked to a swine flu vaccine. Since then they have monitored whether it can be linked to other flu vaccines. One study suggests that there is a one in a million likelihood of contracting GBS following flu vaccination; all the other studies have found no link. I didn't look up the studies, but my feeling is that if the likelihood is 1/1000000 then given how many millions of flu vaccinations have been given we would have more confirmation of the linkage.
Here's the lists of non-active ingredients in the flu vaccine:
From a pdf available here.
I'm not sure what Amaterasu was referring to when she said that the formaldehyde in vaccines is not the same formaldehyde that the body itself produces in tiny amounts; as far as I'm aware there is only one chemical formula referred to as formaldehyde (or formalin). And of course, all these ingredients have been tested as safe at the levels found in the vaccines. That's really something you have to judge for yourself, just like with food: I personally won't use artificial sweeteners because I think their "safeness" is dubious and the benefit is minimal.
If you are especially concerned about mercury (thimerosal) – especially for your child – you might ask your doctor about the nasal mist flu vaccines, which are completely thimerosal-free (they don't use thimerosal in producing them as I understand it). It does use live virus rather than inactivated, so the risk of mild illness after vaccination is increased. Also, it is not recommended for children under a certain age or anyone with asthma.
Be sure your doctor knows about any allergies your child may have – there are potential allergy triggers including egg white and MSG in many of the vaccine formulas.
To sum up: I would let your wife do what she wants and vaccinate your child. If the child is young enough for daycare, he is probably young enough to have a higher risk of complications from influenza. For yourself I would weigh the risks involved: you will very likely be exposed to the virus via your child – your immune system may fight it off without the vaccine, but it may not. You run a higher risk of mild, short-lived illness if you do get the vaccine; your risk of getting seriously ill is much higher if you don't get the vaccine.
Hope some of this information is helpful.
[edit on 10/17/08 by americandingbat]
When I answered before I didn't know two things: that you have a young child and that it is important to you to avoid being sick.
The second may sound stupid, but I think there's different levels of wanting to avoid sickness. Certainly, there are different economic considerations, so you have to take into account things like your health coverage and sick leave policy at work.
Anything you put into your body carries a risk. As the parent of a young child in daycare, you are very likely to be exposed to flu virus; getting the flu is also likely to be far more of a hardship for you than for someone like me who would not have to cope with a sick infant as well. These are all factors to keep in mind.
Here's the link to the CDC statement on Guillain-Barre Syndrome and flu. Basically, in 1976 there were several cases of GBS linked to a swine flu vaccine. Since then they have monitored whether it can be linked to other flu vaccines. One study suggests that there is a one in a million likelihood of contracting GBS following flu vaccination; all the other studies have found no link. I didn't look up the studies, but my feeling is that if the likelihood is 1/1000000 then given how many millions of flu vaccinations have been given we would have more confirmation of the linkage.
Here's the lists of non-active ingredients in the flu vaccine:
Chemicals commonly used in the production of vaccines include a suspending fluid (sterile water, saline, or fluids containing protein); preservatives and stabilizers (for example, albumin, phenols, and glycine); and adjuvants or enhancers that help improve the vaccine's effectiveness. Vaccines also may contain very small amounts of the culture material used to grow the virus or bacteria used in the vaccine, such as chicken egg protein.
Afluria Beta-Propiolactone, Calcium Chloride, Neomycin, Ovalbumin, Polymyxin B, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Phosphate, Sodium Phosphate, Sodium Taurodeoxychoalate.
Fluarix Egg Albumin (Ovalbumin), Egg Protein, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Gentamicin, Hydrocortisone, Octoxynol-10, alpha-Tocopheryl Hydrogen Succinate, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Deoxycholate, Sodium Phosphate, Thimerosal*
Flulaval Egg Albumin (Ovalbumin), Egg Protein, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Sodium Deoxycholate, Phosphate Buffers, Thimerosal
Fluvirin Beta-Propiolactone , Egg Protein, Neomycin, Polymyxin B, Polyoxyethylene 9-10 Nonyl Phenol (Triton N-101, Octoxynol 9), Thimerosal (multidose containers), Thimerosal* (single-dose syringes)
Fluzone Egg Protein, Formaldehyde or Formalin, Gelatin, Octoxinol-9 (Triton X-100), Thimerosal (multidose containers)
FluMist Chick Kidney Cells, Egg Protein, Gentamicin Sulfate, Monosodium Glutamate, Sucrose Phosphate Glutamate Buffer
From a pdf available here.
I'm not sure what Amaterasu was referring to when she said that the formaldehyde in vaccines is not the same formaldehyde that the body itself produces in tiny amounts; as far as I'm aware there is only one chemical formula referred to as formaldehyde (or formalin). And of course, all these ingredients have been tested as safe at the levels found in the vaccines. That's really something you have to judge for yourself, just like with food: I personally won't use artificial sweeteners because I think their "safeness" is dubious and the benefit is minimal.
If you are especially concerned about mercury (thimerosal) – especially for your child – you might ask your doctor about the nasal mist flu vaccines, which are completely thimerosal-free (they don't use thimerosal in producing them as I understand it). It does use live virus rather than inactivated, so the risk of mild illness after vaccination is increased. Also, it is not recommended for children under a certain age or anyone with asthma.
Be sure your doctor knows about any allergies your child may have – there are potential allergy triggers including egg white and MSG in many of the vaccine formulas.
To sum up: I would let your wife do what she wants and vaccinate your child. If the child is young enough for daycare, he is probably young enough to have a higher risk of complications from influenza. For yourself I would weigh the risks involved: you will very likely be exposed to the virus via your child – your immune system may fight it off without the vaccine, but it may not. You run a higher risk of mild, short-lived illness if you do get the vaccine; your risk of getting seriously ill is much higher if you don't get the vaccine.
Hope some of this information is helpful.
[edit on 10/17/08 by americandingbat]
reply posted on 17-10-2008 @ 03:19 PM by Static Sky
reply to post by americandingbat
Hi again americandingbat. Thanks for another well thought out post. this thread is starting to get quite a good little collection of these types of very well presented posts.
You too, make some very good points. I am aware of my increased risk due to my son, and of course his risk via daycare is through the roof. I think we'll have to do it for him, anyways. I'm starting to get a little more clarity on the issue now. For myself though, I still waver back and forth. I've got a couple more weeks to decide. And like last year, I'll likely wait until the last minute to make my mind up.
Hi again americandingbat. Thanks for another well thought out post. this thread is starting to get quite a good little collection of these types of very well presented posts.
You too, make some very good points. I am aware of my increased risk due to my son, and of course his risk via daycare is through the roof. I think we'll have to do it for him, anyways. I'm starting to get a little more clarity on the issue now. For myself though, I still waver back and forth. I've got a couple more weeks to decide. And like last year, I'll likely wait until the last minute to make my mind up.
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