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Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

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posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
Your source claims that the 144,000 are raised up to heaven yet no scripture supports that.


that statement is pure interpretation.

there is a ¨heavenly calling¨, ¨fleshly bodies¨ made in to ¨spiritual ones¨, the 144,000 with christ in heaven ¨before¨ the throne of god.

even references to the 144,000 being the bride of christ, the ¨jerusalem above¨.

all these events happen in heaven.

i understand why you feel the way you do, but your interpreting instead of reading.




posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Good for you being so well read into the Bible. I have not read the Bible, but I do intend to before I die.

I completely agree that the religion itself has twisted and manipulated into a completely different form than the Bible itself teaches. That is how we got molesting priests, etc.

This is why I tell all of the religious people I meet to read the Bible for themselves, and get their own interpretation. After all, the Bible is a large series of metaphors that displays morals and physiological elements including life after death. The church has it's interpretation they would like you to follow, but it is not necessarily the correct one. Going to church simply further embeds their ideology in your mind, and further prevents you from thinking 'outside the box'.



posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I am reading it for what it is. I'm not interpreting it. Like I said before, you and I only see differently with the "heaven" concept and it may remain that way. It's not bad you believe that way and I understand if you do but when I read the bible, no support is there for humans in heaven. We were meant for the earth. It was made for us. Heavenly things come to earth at the end. Jesus and the saints rule from earth too. That's what I've read.



posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
We were meant for the earth. It was made for us.


i agree with this point. adam and eve were made to live forever on earth. isaiah lays out a hope for what the furture will look like for the earth. even revelation 21 talks about blessings on earth. i know that when i die, i will be resurrected on earth. im never going to heaven.

i agree, there is a hope for mandkind and the hope is on earth.

however, some go to heaven.

spiritual bodies do not reside in the physical world.

even look at the mosaic law. it suppose to be a shadow of the more perfect covenant with jesus right?

you have the majority which was the 11 tribes of isreal. then you have the tribe of levite (the priests) then you have the high priest.

jesus we know is the high priest. he presents his blood on behalf of all mankind.

the 144000 can be likened to the levites, they will serve as kings and priests.

the rest of ¨faithful mankind¨ is represented by the rest of the 11 tribes.

now let me ask you a question, if the law was symbolic for something more, then why werent the levites permitted to own land? the rest of the 11 tribes were permitted an inheritance. all except the levites...

why did they serve inside the tabernacle? the inside represented heaven. the most holy represented god´s direct presence. why would they serve in a place that respresents heaven, and then when the real covenant comes, they continue on earth?

your stuck on this idea that jesus is coming in the flesh. why would he need to do that?

if he was raised to heaven, as a spirit, and given immortality and kingship, serving as high priest in the very presence of god, why would he need to come back to earth in a phyisical body?

why would revelations say he commands the army of heaven, from earth?

it doesnt make sense.



posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


I agree with much of what you say also, the scriptures do support that 99%+ of humanity will live on earth, but if you read the scriptures, a few do have an heavenly destiny. My personal hope is earthly, I have no desire to go to heaven.

Scriptures such as Psalm 37: 11 & 29 support the earthly hope.

Psalm 37:11 (King James Version)
11But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:29
29The righteous shall inherit the land(earth), and dwell therein forever.


However some scriptures do support that at least some go to heaven.
Such as Revelation 20: 4-6

Revelation 20:4-6 (Darby Translation)

"4And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

5the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."



So these ones are with the Christ, their assignment for 1000 years is to help Jesus with restoring the earth and it's population to perfection. This theocracy power is based in heaven, not the earth. And they don't get demoted back to fleshly status after 1000 years is over either. Currently we have no idea how God will use them after that, but we do know they keep their rank and it is higher than the common angel.

Also on the second death, it's not always literally a second death, most of the time it is and will be. However people like Judas died the second death on their literal first death.



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


How about the apostle, Paul saying "flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Isn't the 1000 year reign of Jesus and His saints known as the Kingdom of God? I don't believe His return will be fleshly. I don't believe the 144000 are flesh when they resurrect. In comparison to your levite translation, know that the saints will live in the New Jerusalem with Christ for eternity. It's not a posession of land but a courtship in the royal city. The bible also says that Jesus and His saints will rule ON EARTH! If you need the reference for that, just let me know.



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Locoman8
 


Revelation 20:4-6 (Darby Translation)

"4And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

5the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."



So these ones are with the Christ, their assignment for 1000 years is to help Jesus with restoring the earth and it's population to perfection. This theocracy power is based in heaven, not the earth. And they don't get demoted back to fleshly status after 1000 years is over either. Currently we have no idea how God will use them after that, but we do know they keep their rank and it is higher than the common angel.

Also on the second death, it's not always literally a second death, most of the time it is and will be. However people like Judas died the second death on their literal first death.




Okay, every one of those verses had nothing to do with heaven. Where does it say "heaven"? Just because they're with Christ? Remember they were raised at the LAST TRUMPET while Christ was descending to earth for it's final judgement. It was a meeting of the Lamb and the Saints. They didn't go up to heaven, but all descended to earth to confront the armies of the world for armageddon. Also, where do you get that Judas died his second death the first time? I'm glad you agree with most of my stuff, but your proof of heaven for the saints is inconclusive for me. It just says they will be with Christ but even Christ rules on earth from Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 talks about the feast of Tabernacles when all of the world will come to the Great City to be with Jesus and learn His ways and for those who don't, it is certain destruction. Christ rules earth, God rules heaven with His angels. After the 1000 years are up and the judgement takes place, a new Heaven and New Earth come about in which the bride and Bridegroom will concimate their marriage. This refers to Christ and New Jerusalem comeing from heaven. After the new heaven and new earth are created, God dwells in New Jerusalem and then we will have literal "Heaven on Earth." God bless you all.



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
How about the apostle, Paul saying "flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God." Isn't the 1000 year reign of Jesus and His saints known as the Kingdom of God?


no, its only part of it.

jesus eventually hands that kingdom back to god, but the government still stands.


I don't believe His return will be fleshly. I don't believe the 144000 are flesh when they resurrect.
ok but now you are mixing things up. so jesus was resurrected spiritually and is in heaven, but the 144,000 are resurrected spiritually, but are on earth? are they ghosts?


In comparison to your levite translation, know that the saints will live in the New Jerusalem with Christ for eternity.


the saints ARE new jerusalem

rev 21:[9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

after, he goes on to describe the bride as new jerusalem. cross reference with..

2 cor 11:[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

the 144.000, the ones with a heavenly hope are the lamb's bride. they will be inseparable. everywhere he goes, so will they.

also... and we went over this on other threads, the new jerusalem is symbolic. its made of gold which has been refined by fire (persecution). the actual dimensions of it are too big to be literal.

jesus is its cornerstone. (matt 21:42)

the apostles are the foundation (eph 2:19-20), is it any wonder that their names are written on the 12 "foundations" of new jerusalem?


The bible also says that Jesus and His saints will rule ON EARTH! If you need the reference for that, just let me know.


yea, if you could because i cant find it.

the main point of what im saying
paul mentioned the flesh said that with a specific meaning. in 1 cor 15 paul talks about the very resurrection hope of this priestly class. he starts the chapter addressing people who said there is no resurrection. then the question turns logistical. some people couldnt fathom how anyone could be resurrected when the body is good and gone.

[35] But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

paul then goes on the explain different type of bodies, fleshly and spiritual. but then..

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

this is why later paul said that flesh cannot inherit god's kingdom. because god's kingdom is in heaven. this is why those who will inherit the kingdom of god "sow" a fleshly body, or are born with a fleshly body. but we are raised with a "spiritual" body.

this is where saying the 144.000 are on earth falls apart.

why would a person need a spiritual body when they are going to be on earth?

if the 144,000 do in fact receive a fleshly resurrection, why would paul compare it to the spiritual resurrection of jesus?

if flesh cannot inherit god's kingdom (1 cor 15) then how are people invited by jesus himself to inherit this kingdom?

matt 25:[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

the only answer is, that they are resurrected to a spiritual body and reside and rule in heaven.



posted on Dec, 28 2008 @ 12:29 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Your reference of 2 Corinthians 11:2 is interesting but reading further in the chapter, Paul wasn't necessarily talking about New Jerusalem. The fact is, Rev. 21 talks about the New Jerusalem with streets of gold, rivers of life, high walls, precious stones and gates on all sides. The gates represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the foundations had the names of the 12 apostles written in them but no point is made to suggest the Holy City is the saints. I agree that the saints are the Church and the Church of the saints creates the virginity of the Holy City which they will dwell in. The more I reference some of these points the closer I get to understanding why you believe the way you do but the bible does not specify or define these aspects of heaven that you reference so there's no clear indication of the saints going to heaven. That's where my argument comes in. There are at least two clear indications in the New Testament stating that no man has entered heaven. It does leave the room for a POSSIBLE future carrying away of the saints but no clear indication. I think our dispute will do nothing but come in full circle and start over again. I like you and don't want to start heated debates about this so I maintain that we agree to disagree on this point. God bless you and good luck on your further research of the scripture.

P.S. I haven't heard much on your opinion with the "hell" issue. We've been concentrated on the "heaven" issue so long I'd like to know what you think.



posted on Dec, 28 2008 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566
 


Your reference of 2 Corinthians 11:2 is interesting but reading further in the chapter, Paul wasn't necessarily talking about New Jerusalem. The fact is, Rev. 21 talks about the New Jerusalem with streets of gold, rivers of life, high walls, precious stones and gates on all sides. The gates represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the foundations had the names of the 12 apostles written in them but no point is made to suggest the Holy City is the saints. I agree that the saints are the Church and the Church of the saints creates the virginity of the Holy City which they will dwell in.


revelations is written in ¨signs¨right? it was signified by an angel in the form of visions.

that is a very important point. it raises a question of literalness to symbolism.

ill give you an example, revelation refers to a temple from time to time. (7:15; 11:1,2,9; 14:15,17; 15:5,6,8; 16:1,17) all of them refer to a temple in heaven.

yet..

rev 21:[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

so there was a temple, but new jerusalem doesnt have a temple? how do the 144,000 serve as priests?

trying to apply physical logic to an intangible realm is impossible. trying to explain the actual being of god to a human is impossible. john would not be able to understand or relate what he saw. hence why revelations were given to john in visions. images he could understand and relate.

but this creates a confusion. for example, seraphs are described as having eyes all over their wings. do seraphs literally have alot of eyes all over their wings? i doubt it, they probably dont even have ¨wings¨, but how else are you going to describe a person who is allseeing and able to go wherever they wish when they wish?

the answer to revelation´s ¨code¨ if you will is found in the rest of the bible. cross referencing scriptures with revelation is extremely important to understanding it.

i cant tell you how many different interpretations ive heard regarding the ¨seven headed ¨beast that comes out of the ¨sea¨. yet all you have to do is look into daniel to see that this beast is a government (or group of governments). daniel not only provides visuals that are too similar to ignore, but also provides somewhat of an explanation.

why all this regarding new jerusalem, well because there is not only scriptures that point to this new jerusalem as a ¨heavenly¨ thing, but this is rhetoric all through the NT that this ¨city¨ IS the congregation.

galatians 4 startes to talk about whether we are still tied to jewish law, but it talks about christians who are adopted and ¨heirs¨ with christ in the kingdom of god.

[3] Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
[4] But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5] To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[7] Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

but its interesting, at the end of the chapter, the law (which paul called a tutor) and the new covenant which jesus instituted are compared with an anology.

[22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
[23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
[24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
[25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
[27] For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
[28] Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
[29] But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
[30] Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
[31] So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

clear contrast between the literal jerusalem with was a city and the center of worship for mosaic law, and the jerusalem ¨above¨ which is made from the blood of christ.

but then the rhetoric kicks in. jesus is the ¨cornerstone¨the builders threw away (showing the jewish leaders rejecting him). the apostles are the foundation.

hebrews 12:[21] And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

sounds like a literal city in heaven. however we have more rhetoric.

rev 3:[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
[12] Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

not only are those who hold fast desribed as an actual part of the building, but there is reference here to having jesus´name on the person. it is customary that when someone is married, they assume their husbands name.

my point is that if you think that the new jerusalem is a literal cubed city that will literally come out of the sky and land on earth, made of gold, taking up a space literally the size of eastern europe, towering hundreds of miles into space, then you are ignore what even jesus himself is saying. you ignoring the fact that this ¨city¨ is the bride of christ, and stated so bluntly.


the bible does not specify or define these aspects of heaven that you reference so there's no clear indication of the saints going to heaven.


the reason why is because of 2 reasons.

1 - the 144,000 would chosen over time. it would all depend on who accepts the invitation. jesus knew an apostasy would set it, he prophesied it himself. so while its sad, to think, less than 144,000 people have actually learned, accepted, practiced jesus´commandments until death between pentecost 33 and the early 1900´s. its not to say that other people who lived during that time arent to be save, it just means that they didnt have this truth presented to them for them to even make a decision. that how effective satan´s apostasy has been.

this span of time though makes placeing their whereabouts difficult. in the time of john, they were on earth living their lives. some had died. some where yet to be born. even in the last days their would be some on earth. rev 7 talks about holding back the winds until they are sealed (or have received their crown of life). now if heavenly calling and ¨spiritual¨ bodies is not enough for you (although i cant see why) to see that they are not on earth, but instead resurrected to the spirit realm, then you must look at the context. in revelation they are always described with jesus and jesus is always described in heaven which leads me to my second point.

2- the church (and others) has consistently taught that jesus will return in the flesh. jesus is always described either in heaven or with angels or before the throne of god. how this means that he will return in the flesh baffles me.


There are at least two clear indications in the New Testament stating that no man has entered heaven. It does leave the room for a POSSIBLE future carrying away of the saints but no clear indication.


what i dont understand is how 2 passages which give no indication to future arrangements are used to to argue that noone besides jesus will go to heaven. if they give no indication of future plans, then they a null and void in the discussion. the only information they provide us is that faithful jews were not sent to heaven but instead are still asleep in death.

all reference to god´s future plans for people would have to be derived from other scriptures. all of which support a 2 flock hope.


P.S. I haven't heard much on your opinion with the "hell" issue. We've been concentrated on the "heaven" issue so long I'd like to know what you think.


lol, long answer or short answer?



posted on Dec, 30 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Okay, now I understand the temple made up of Jesus and the saints but you never mentioned the city of New Jerusalem being a body of people. Obviously Jesus is the cornerstone and the apostles are the foundations which leads to the saints being the priests in the temple. They are priests of Jesus and the apostles. The city is said to be a dwelling place for God when the new heaven and new earth are created, so yes I do believe it to be a physical city. You are reasoning with the fact that spirit and flesh can't mingle together but I beg to differ. The spirit realm and physical realm will be one and the same and the two will co-exist with each other when the melennium starts. I understand about symbolism and referencing but the bible defines itself. I know what the symbolism in revelation means because it simply references back to the Olivet Prophecy or the books of Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zechariah, Hosea, etc. All define aspects of revelation. Truth be told, it doesn't matter what the aspect of New Jerusalem's image is. We simply disagree on one small point. I have a question though. If you believe some go to heaven, when do they go? Do you believe in the rapture or something? Or do you think it's at the time of Christ's return that it happens? Also, about the "hell" issue.... give me all you got.



posted on Dec, 31 2008 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
You are reasoning with the fact that spirit and flesh can't mingle together but I beg to differ. The spirit realm and physical realm will be one and the same and the two will co-exist with each other when the melennium starts.


im sorry, but i have never heard any bible passage say that.


If you believe some go to heaven, when do they go? Do you believe in the rapture or something? Or do you think it's at the time of Christ's return that it happens? Also, about the "hell" issue.... give me all you got.


first resurrection happens after christ´s return. so sometime after early 1900´s (as i mentioned in the other thread.)

no i do not belief in the rapture. 1 cor 15:[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

if flesh an body cannot inherit god´s kingdom and we ARE souls, then this means we must die. but 51 talks about what it would be like for some. for peter and paul and the other apostles and first century christians, they ¨slept¨ in death. nearly 2000 years would pass before they were resurrected. but for those who have this hope and die after the resurrection started, for them it would be instant. like a ¨twinkling of an eye¨

hellfire, lol give me some time please. i spent like 3 hours on the last post and i need a break. im sorry



posted on Jan, 1 2009 @ 08:38 PM
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hellfire -

i realized that i actually already posted extensively on this subject.

an exhaustive study of the ¨afterlife¨

www.belowtopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 
1 Peter 1:3-5
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

this seems to state that are souls will wait in heaven until the last time



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by neil a
 


"1 Peter 1:3-5
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

this seems to state that are souls will wait in heaven until the last time "


You are misreading the passage. The passage speaks of our inheritance being in heaven for us but does not mention US actually going UP to heaven. When Christ returns and the Kingdom of God is set on earth, those heavenly inheritences mentioned in Peter's epistle will come out of heaven to earth. Just like Jesus mentioning mansions in heaven for His saints. If you are in heaven, why do you need a mansion to live in? Your reasoning on "souls waiting in heaven" leads people to believe that body and soul separate when you die but many posts and threads here have explained the problem with that. The word "soul" in the bible simply means "life" and the hebrew word for soul is used for animals and humans. In the opening chapters of Genesis it says that God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam and he became a "living soul". When your body dies, your soul dies with it because they are one and the same. That's why there are 2 resurrections mentioned in revelation. Why are there resurrections to life if you are already in heaven or hell?



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
You are misreading the passage. The passage speaks of our inheritance being in heaven for us but does not mention US actually going UP to heaven. When Christ returns and the Kingdom of God is set on earth, those heavenly inheritences mentioned in Peter's epistle will come out of heaven to earth. Just like Jesus mentioning mansions in heaven for His saints. If you are in heaven, why do you need a mansion to live in? Your reasoning on "souls waiting in heaven" leads people to believe that body and soul separate when you die but many posts and threads here have explained the problem with that. The word "soul" in the bible simply means "life" and the hebrew word for soul is used for animals and humans. In the opening chapters of Genesis it says that God breathed the Breath of Life into Adam and he became a "living soul". When your body dies, your soul dies with it because they are one and the same. That's why there are 2 resurrections mentioned in revelation. Why are there resurrections to life if you are already in heaven or hell?


but... 1 cor 15 explains thats. those that are resurrected to heaven dont ¨separate¨ from their bodies. they die, and then are resurrected in a different form.

paul even acknowledges ones inability to live with out your body when he said that flesh and blood cannot inherit gods kingdom. he was saying that you HAVE to die and be literally remade.

if the kingdom is literally and physically coming to earth like you say, then paul was lying

your taking passages like 1 peter 1 and saying that its not saying christians go up, but in a way it is. the flesh is a barrier. if the kingdom was to BE on earth not just figuratively, but literally, why would flesh be a barrier?



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Okay, you don't have to die to become spirit, or to inherit the Kingdom. The "transfiguration" of Jesus Christ in front of His apostles (matt. 17) proves that. Paul states, "in the twinkling of an eye" and that "those who are alive and remain will meet Him in the clouds" so that alone leads me to believe those alive in Christ when He returns will simply transfigure into spirit while the dead in Christ will rise and be changed into spirit.

The "heaven" argument is getting tiresome and it really isn't a big issue as long as we're clear that no one enters heaven UNTIL the return of Christ.

On a side note, it sounds as though you said you were studying with the Jehova's Witnesses? The paraphrase of 1914 was something I was told by a friend who is JW. I'm not. I follow the United Church of God and Living Church of God but consider myself a Judeo-Christian. The interpretations you gave for the 1914 date make some sense but I guess people take those verses to mean other things. It seems to me that someone had too much time on hand and tried to fix a date for the Kingdom of God to be established. With our two outlooks butting heads, we will not gain ground in the "heaven" issue.



posted on Jan, 4 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


This issue has to do with when the war in heaven actually took place as talked about in the book of Revelation. Empowered by God, Jesus and his angels would clear the heavens of Satan and all his demons, making a symbolic new heavens, not a literal one. Only then would heaven be able to receive it's newest members. When did this happen? All bible prophesies I know point to the time period around the first world war.

Also of note with God losing some of his angels as they converted to demons and Satan's side, it is reasonable to assume that he would want at least some replacements for these. Who better to pick from than those that battled Satan in a fleshly state in a spiritual war and came off victorious.
Some like Stephen gave there life up, in defense of Jesus, because their faith in being brought back to life was so strong.

My personal belief is that someone like Stephen a real martyr for true Christianity is in heaven right now.



[edit on 4-1-2009 by Blue_Jay33]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


You go on believing that. The bible doesn't give us indications of this notion so I'll go on not believing that. Godspeed to you.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


1.God is Thee Spirit not of flesh. We cant see God.

2.Angels are spirits not of flesh. We cant see angels.

3.Humans are spirits in flesh. And we "can" see other humans. There is a guy in the bible that talks about our body as it was just a tent that shelters the spirit. That clearly tells me that we are spirits in flesh.

If i look at it this way! What you say makes sense. And it is also mentioned in Book of Revelation that the once who are still alive in the end will ascend to meet Jesus. Or something like that i have not read the Bible.
But i do believe that when we die our next stop will be before Jesus. Because we are all going to die. God has prepared earth for the second destruction by fire this time. So a spiritual demention sounds good to me


PS: miriam keep it coming your interpretation sure open my mind.
And by the way i think miriam knew the point you tried make she just forgot to mention it. Man look at her comment they are huge
so lets give her a brake for missing out on some of the details.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



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