Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

Originally posted by miriam0566 it is after this second coming that the resurrection takes place. so it makes sense that the second death would be around that time too.

I would love for ONE person to show me ONCE where G-d says the punishment for sin is 2 deaths.

You have a very faulty basis for what you read. You base things on the New Testament rather than basing the New Testament on the Old. When you use logic, you see the Truth and the deciet and the perversion.

ONce... just once show me where G-d says that the punishment is 2 deaths.

Not to mention, the 2nd punishment (which is NEVER ONCE spoken of by G-d.... again show me where He said it) is not even technically a death if one is to experience this for all eternity. Let's not be stupid about this stuff PLEASE!! The Creator was thinking wisely when He gave us a brain to weigh these things out so that we would have no excuse. We will not be able to say we COULDN'T have known when His words are there, clear as day. The foundation was laid and yet, so many refuse to acknowledge this because the new alone is subtle in its seperating the wheat from the chaff.

BTW... the soul that is referred to in the Old Testament had NOTHING TO do with being inside our being (which is just laughable that we would have believed this).. I know it is disappointing to find that you are not so special w/out Him.

The soul is exists as the place where one has communion with the one G-d. It is not something that exists within us save our communion with G-d that can only take place when we walk in accordance with what He has said.

[edit on 8-12-2008 by justamomma]

Basically, the phrase translated "eternal" is based on the latin vulgate, "Avaeturnis" rather than on the actual greek word in the oldest copies of the New Testament: Aiownios.

Aiownios is the term for "a really long time." It's where we get the modern English word "eon."

An eon may be a long time, but it's not eternal. Jesus uses this word in the last verse of matthew: "and behold I am with you to the end of the age. Age here is aionios, and notice that it has an end; therefore, it cannot last forever. In fact Jesus is refering to this present age, which will most clearly come to an end.

Here's where it matters most:

Revelation 20:13-14

13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Now, the lake of fire cannot be an eternal punishment; look at the next chapter, when Christ has implemented his kingdom:

revelation 21:4

4. and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

If death was cast into the lake of fire in the preceding chapter, then "death" should last forever, since the lake is eternal, right? But notice that by the final chapter, death has ceased to exist! So the lake of fire is not "eternal" in the sense of being unending.

But this is done all the time, bending scripture to uphold the catholic view of "eternal" torture.

Jesus never says this. Indeed, when he talks about the "day of the son of man," he compares it to Sodom, where the people were destroyed by fire in a day.

Against this, the catholic church points to Jude 7:

7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

See, the word "eternal" makes no sense there. Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? No. They are just ashes now. So how could anything about that story be considered "eternal?" The point is that the judgment is unalterable, not the duration of the sentence---that God's judgment cannot be altered once it is passed, and that it will be completed, with not change; not that the fire will burn, or that people will suffer, endlessly.

But the Catholic cosmology requires an eternal hellfire, and so they have inserted it into the text. And most protestants translate the text to follow the latin vulgate, even though the greek text has always been available. The RCC of course, claims that the latin text is infallible, not the greek its based on.

Jesus and Revelation both specifically refer to the punishment of the wicked as "second death." In other words, "REAL" non-existence.

Kudos to the original poster, for getting that right.

Lotta folks in for a shock that day.

.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Romans 6:7 In multiple bibles
1)"because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."
2)"For when a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men]"
3)"For he that has died is justified from sin"
4)"For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin"

So death is the ultimate price for sin, and it wipes out almost all sin that person did in his entire life.

i have a question...

i get the impression that when the 144,000 are resurrected they are resurrected perfect, incorruptible, immortal.

the impression i get from rev 20 is that the dead resurrected on earth are not. they are resurrected the way they were and raised to perfection.

do you happen to have any thoughts on why that is?

You are 100% correct, that's why it's a resurrection of Judgement for those on earth that never practiced good things, they have to change, and some have to change really fast too, or they die the second death sooner than even before the 1000 years ends. Perfection to a life without sin will be gradual however. But those that are getting a head start right now or those that lived and died faithful to God are that much ahead of the curve, it's going to be much easier for them to continue doing what they already were doing.

Isaiah 65:20
"Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. "

This scripture is talking a hundred year old man that dies at God's hand but he either never aged or had his aging reversed, and then did something bad enough to warrant death.

Those brought to heaven don't have this issue, they are instantly a perfect spirit being.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


*BZZZZZ* k... we learned this concept back in grade school (or at least some of us did) when we played the game "Simon says." Remember?

I said, I want someone to show me one place where *G-D* says that there were be two deaths as the punishment for sin. Not where it randomly says it in the New Testament. Where it is said that G-d declares two deaths?

Concept needed in answering my question again is found in "simon says" and if you do not know that concept, please ask and I will be happy to explain in elementary terms.

reply to post by paxnatus


Nope not spiritual, a spiritual death is much worse than a physical death. How could those ones die spiritually and then be instantly forgiven? That's not logical. They die the physical death just like Jesus did. But Jesus never needed to be forgiven anyway. At the physical death all can be forgiven, allowing some of these to go on to be in heaven with Christ. Especially those with a heavenly destiny never die a spiritual death, it would be an instant disqualifier.

Sorry mate your a tad mixed up on this one.

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by dr_strangecraft

 

ZZZZZ* k... we learned this concept back in grade school (or at least some of us did) when we played the game "Simon says." Remember?

I didn't answer because....I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to the original poster, and that original post.

I said, I want someone to show me one place where *G-D* says that there were be two deaths as the punishment for sin. Not where it randomly says it in the New Testament. Where it is said that G-d declares two deaths?

first off, I don't believe the New Testament is, what did you call it--random?

Second, for some of us, the New Testament is a satisfactory source for our theology.

Third, the Torah never even mentions an afterlife at all. That New Testament mentions the political party of the Sadducees, who opposed Jesus because they didn't believe in a coming judgement OR an afterlife. The Torah never mentions resurrection, therefore, there must not be one, right? So the Sadducees thought. (Matthew 22:23)





all the best.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by dr_strangecraft]

reply to post by justamomma


I appriciate your support on this subject but your argument on the 2nd death is flawed. Daniel and Isaiah in the Old Testament talk about the death in fire. Even Malachi.

Daniel 12:1-3

"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, SOME TO EVERLASTING LIFE, SOME TO SHAME AND EVERLASTING CONTEMPT.
Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

And here is the argument to those that say the OT doesn't mention a future resurrection or afterlife....

Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD,
"So shall your descendants and your name remain.
And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, ALL FLESH SHALL COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME," says the LORD.
AND THEY SHALL GO FORTH AND LOOK UPON THE CORPSES OF THE MEN WHO HAVE TRANSGRESSED AGAINST ME. FOR THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THEIR FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. THEY SHALL BE AN ABHORRENCE TO ALL FLESH."

And now the final book of the OT.... Malachi speaking of those who died in the fire after the final resurrection.......

Malachi 4:1-3

"For behold, the day is coming, BURNING LIKE AN OVEN, and all the proud, yes, ALL WHO DO WICKEDLY WILL BE STUBBLE. AND THE DAY WHICH IS COMING SHALL BURN THEM UP," says the LORD of hosts, "THAT WILL LEAVE THEM NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH.
But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness SHALL ARISE with healing in His wings; And you shall go out and grow fat like stall-fed calves.
YOU SHALL TRAMPLE THE WICKED, FOR THEY SHALL BE ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET on the day that I do this," says the LORD of hosts.


Point is, there is plenty of Old Testament scripture pointing to resurrection, firey death and a time of peace on earth. There's your proof ma'am. God bless you and have a nice day.

reply to post by Locoman8


Traditional Christianity? I think you should define this term so I know what you mean, do you mean the Catholic Church?

The Bible is VERY CLEAR about Heaven and Hell, hell is NOT eternal flames and nowhere in the Bible does i say that, and Heaven is also explained very well in the Bible.

I can't stand when people who have't even read the Bible make comments on it based on some denomination that claims to be Christian.

Read the words of Jesus in Matt. 24... They will say to me LORD LORD did we not cast out demons in your name did we not heal in your name etc etc,, and the LORD said ge away from me I NEVER KNEW YOU...

Just because someone claims Christ don't make it so, in fact the Anti-Christ will claim to be Christ himself...

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Is that suppose to offend me or support my argument? I stated that the hellfire in the bible is not an everlasting torment but a second death. The "lake of fire" in revelation is mentioned as the "second death" and that's where I root my argument on hell. As many know, not every word in the english bible translated "hell" actually means fire. In most cases, it means death or grave or "sheol/hades" respectively. Gehenna is the only word in the bible that translates hell and associates with fire. Gehenna was a place south of Jerusalem where corpses of prisoners and animal bodies were burned so it was only natural for Jesus to use this term in His teachings and the people would know right away what He was talking about. Fact is, this place consisted of DEAD bodies and fire.

As far as the term "Traditional Christianity" I am referring to "post-apostolic" christianity which started with the Roman Catholic church and continues today with it's splinter groups of the Protestant faiths. Pentacostals steal the term "Church of God" or "Apostolic" and those were the original churches in the first century.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by paxnatus

 

Nope not spiritual, a spiritual death is much worse than a physical death. How could those ones die spiritually and then be instantly forgiven? That's not logical. They die the physical death just like Jesus did. But Jesus never needed to be forgiven anyway. At the physical death all can be forgiven, allowing some of these to go on to be in heaven with Christ. Especially those with a heavenly destiny never die a spiritual death, it would be an instant disqualifier.

Sorry mate your a tad mixed up on this one.

No, you have misunderstood what I was saying. Only those in Christ Jesus are forgiven their sins and will spend eternity with God in heaven.

We as man must die to our own selves so we may live a life for Jesus. It was through Christ' crucifixtion that we went through death(of our old)
so that we may be born new, that is with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

If you are saying All who go through physical death are automatically forgiven,and go on to live with Christ, then you are the one who is mixed-up. Please show me scripture to back up your claim.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


I apologize. Your verses came right after my question and were exactly what I was expecting to hear.

(And I do agree that the New Testament isn't random, just the verses.. the ones that *you* pointed out were the random verses that I was expecting but not wanting... however, since you were not answering me, this matters little).


To the OP's reply to me: PERFECT! And thank you for those references. That was what I was looking for. Something specific in the Old to answer a question I have had floating around in my head for some time now.

I must make this clear. I do not think the New Testament is a mistake (mainly geared toward the first poster I am replying to) nor have I claimed it to be. I see the purpose, but without the Old Testament being used as the filter, it does not stand on its own.

But the intent of the New Testament is to filter and seperate. There is light that supports the Truth in the New Testament, but there is also light that supports man's truth in it as well. Those who discard the Old because it is confusing; because they think that G-d has changed His nature or that G-d was an imagined G-d; or because they like the message they are seeing (whether real or imagined) would do well by setting aside their feelings and taking another look at the Old. Without that foundation that is laid in the Old, you will get what you are seeking in the New.. and that is not necessarily a good thing. It, again, was the intent in how it was set up. It seperates the wheat from the chaff.. If your seeds are not sowed properly, well.... ya know.





[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

Wow this thread is deep too .sometimes I think we all really try to understand things spiritual using our physical brain ....(overthinking over analizing) something that can only be understood spiritually speaking ..

This dieing twice is about as hard to explain as being born twice (Born Again from flesh to spirit) (or thats how the Jews saw the born again situation) ..and now the secular world trying to understand born again and second deaths is similar to what Christ and the Apostles went through then in trying to explain things ...(I understand now what they went through lol) ........

They did not understand spiritual because they did not have the spiritual tools to understand it ...and most now are in the same situation as they were in ....(THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THAT SPIRITUAL TOOL one needs to understand these things) ...


Sorry ..just another of my 2 cents ...

Originally posted by paxnatus

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by paxnatus

 

Nope not spiritual, a spiritual death is much worse than a physical death. How could those ones die spiritually and then be instantly forgiven? That's not logical. They die the physical death just like Jesus did. But Jesus never needed to be forgiven anyway. At the physical death all can be forgiven, allowing some of these to go on to be in heaven with Christ. Especially those with a heavenly destiny never die a spiritual death, it would be an instant disqualifier.

Sorry mate your a tad mixed up on this one.

No, you have misunderstood what I was saying. Only those in Christ Jesus are forgiven their sins and will spend eternity with God in heaven.

We as man must die to our own selves so we may live a life for Jesus. It was through Christ' crucifixtion that we went through death(of our old)
so that we may be born new, that is with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

If you are saying All who go through physical death are automatically forgiven,and go on to live with Christ, then you are the one who is mixed-up. Please show me scripture to back up your claim.

No they don't all go on to live with Christ, and Romans 6:7 as previously quoted answers the question.

reply to post by Simplynoone


You are right about understanding things in a spiritual matter. A good example is when christians think the Law is done away with because of Jesus' sacrifice yet all over the new testament it says to keep the commandments of God and to uphold the Law. The spiritual side of things.... what Paul was trying to explain in Romans was that the laws are written in our hearts and minds because we follow in the footsteps of Jesus. By following the examples of Jesus, we automatically follow the laws... even the "clean and unclean meats" laws because Jesus was a Jew and He upheld the Jewish laws as written in scripture.... not the way the scribes and pharisees forced Jews to uphold the law which is what made them want to kill Him.

So spiritually one automatically follows the laws if they are true christians by following the ways of Jesus. Recieving the Holy Spirit and letting it lead you to God is ultimately what brings people into the 1st resurrection... the resurrection of the righteous who rule with Jesus in the melennium. I know this is slightly off subject but I just wanted to throw some "spiritual" things in the mix. The second death in revelation is a physical death seeing that the 2nd resurrection is physical as described in Ezekiel 37 (valley of dry bones). Those who call themselves "safe" in the name of Jesus must ask an important question.... are you working to take part in the first resurrection? If so, there is so much more involved. The steps involve repentance... very sincere repentance, water baptism.... in the name of Jesus Christ as a symbolic gesture to God to put away the old, sinful body and bury it by submerging in water while rising up to a new pure body, a laying of hands to recieve the Holy Spirit.... only done by someone who has been baptised by the Holy Spirit, and letting that comforter guide you in life until death or the return of Christ.

More later because I know I'll catch some slack for this one.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
You are 100% correct, that's why it's a resurrection of Judgement for those on earth that never practiced good things, they have to change, and some have to change really fast too, or they die the second death sooner than even before the 1000 years ends. Perfection to a life without sin will be gradual however. But those that are getting a head start right now or those that lived and died faithful to God are that much ahead of the curve, it's going to be much easier for them to continue doing what they already were doing.

Isaiah 65:20
"Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. "

This scripture is talking a hundred year old man that dies at God's hand but he either never aged or had his aging reversed, and then did something bad enough to warrant death.

Those brought to heaven don't have this issue, they are instantly a perfect spirit being.

so its possible in theory that some people will reach perfection early on in the thousand years. i can see that. would make things abit complex though.

reply to post by miriam0566


That too is correct, the only thing holding some people back is Adamic sin, once that is lifted, they can literally infleuance there own progress to perfection.

People like Abraham who is already considered a friend of God, will make very rapid progress to perfection. Compared to some pagan, that did evil out of pure ignorance, their entire lives 3000 years ago.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Do you realize the 2nd death is AFTER the 1000 years? The timeline is:

1. Tribulation
2. Return of Christ
3. 1st Resurrection
4. Satan bound til the 1000 years are up.
5. 1000 years of peace
6. Satan released for a while to decieve the nations
7. Satan and fallen angels first to be judged and thrown into lake of fire.
8. 2nd Resurrection to the White Throne Judgement.... some to everlasting life, some to a 2nd death.
9. Death and Grave thrown into lake of fire
10. New Heaven and New Earth.... the end (or more like "the beginning with no end").

This is the chronology of the book of Revelation. It is laid out in order of ocurrence, not wrapped up in a hop-scotch of mystery and time. The bible defines itself and I will give examples in a few days when I have a free minute. God bless you all.

Audio articles taken from the November 2008 issue of The Watchtower relevant to this thread:

What Really Happens at Death?

What Did Jesus Teach About Hell?

How Does Learning the Truth About Hell Affect You?

What We Learn From Jesus—About Hope for the Dead

Why Some Do Go to Heaven
Many readers of the Bible, however, are aware of Jesus' words: "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. . . . I am going my way to prepare a place for you." (John 14:2, 3) Does this not contradict the idea of life everlasting on a paradise earth? These teachings are not contradictory. In fact, one supports the other. To begin with, the Bible states that only a limited number of faithful Christians—namely, 144,000 of them—are raised as spirit creatures to live in heaven. Why are they given this wonderful reward? Because they make up the group that John saw in a vision who "came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 14:1, 3; 20:4-6) Compared with the billions on earth, the 144,000 truly are a "little flock." (Luke 12:32) Moreover, having experienced the problems common to humankind, like Jesus they will be able to "sympathize with our weaknesses" as they supervise the rehabilitation of mankind and of the earth.—Hebrews 4:15.

Source

reply to post by holywar


Your source claims that the 144,000 are raised up to heaven yet no scripture supports that. They are raised as Jesus descends to earth from a cloud. While He descends to earth, the 144,000 are caught up or raised up to meet Him as He is arriving to earth. This is common with any followers of kings going to the entrance of the city to meet with him and escort him into the city square. In conclusion, these members of the "small flock" meet Jesus in the air and escort Him to earth and that starts the conclusion of tribulation and the start of 1000 years of rule with Christ and His faithful followers leading. It's not led from heaven... but from earth in Jerusalem.