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Originally posted by Locoman8
She believes ....that from 1914 on, heaven is available to all.
I believe in spirit beings with a physical aspect such as Jesus when He resurrected and was among the apostles (acts 1). In this sense, you are still spirit or immortal, but with an apearance that seems physical.
Some interpreters believe that the Thessalonians did not really have any doubt about the resurrection of the body. They say that the question bothering the church was whether the Christians who had died would rise soon enough to share in the joyful, glorious moment of Christ’s return. That interpretation could explain Paul’s desire to stress in these verses the promise of an immediate resurrection of believers (as he also does in I Corinthians 15:52) and the promise that they will actually participate in that event (cf. v. 17).
Note that like the KJV we are translating the phrase dia_ tou~ )Ihsou~, “in Jesus,” rather than “through Jesus.” C. Moule suggests that dia_ tou~ )Ihsou~ is an idiomatic expression which is no different from e)n Xristw|~ in verse 16. Some other translators feel strongly that the dia_ tou~ )Ihsou~ phrase should be connected with the verb “bring,” “God will through Jesus bring those who fell asleep with him.” Either way, the point is that the “sleeping” bodies of believers will not only be glorified, rejoined with their souls and raised, but this will happen at the very moment of Christ’s majestic return. They will not miss a thing.
This is similar to what Adam and Eve were except, they were not spirit. They were simply immortal humans as long as they followed the rules of God. When the rules were broken, immortality left the flesh.
Originally posted by spy66
I am totally lost here now. When it comes to the resurrection i thought that this was in two stages. Two stages before we get sent before Jesus the butchered lamb on the great throne of Judgement.
When i think about it. The souls that are under the alter who is crying to God must be us after we die. We must become spirits or we wouldn't be able to talk to god. And we wouldn't have been waiting for anything if we where just dead.
But i can only understand that the second death is a spiritual death,Because flesh wont burn for ever. Only the soul or spirit can suffer for ever.
Originally posted by spy66
Before i read all that. I have a brief question for you. Aren't we in the same boat as Able when we die. Why is Able under the alter and not us! Or did i understand you wrong. Or dose God separate us even in death by our sins. Or is it just a figure of speech for the dead resting and being non existing until we get resurrected.
Originally posted by miriam0566
there is nothing, nothing to suggest that a person can become a spirit without dying.
Originally posted by Locoman8
I think you are jumping the gun when you say that a transfiguration involves death before the body becomes spirit. If that is so, how do you explain Jesus transfiguring in front of His apostles? The same thing happened to two dead prophets.... Moses and Elijah for this temporary display of messiahship for Jesus by God. Jesus was in fact alive when He transfigured to spirit and was still alive when He transfigured back to the physical body.
Along with the so-called "rapture" verse in 2 Thessalonians, I think there is an argument that those who belong to the 144,000 saints that are still alive at the return of Christ will not die and transfigure but simply transfigure and meet Jesus along with the dead who rose as transfigured spirits.
Unless you account for the verse in Romans stating that the punishment of sin is death. A simple account can be made here because the saints would have had to undertaken water and spiritual baptism in which they bury the sinful body or lay it to rest.
Also, I'm glad I could make it clearer for you on the spirit/physical for my argument of spirits on earth.
Originally posted by doctorex
This plainly states there will be some still alive who are changed to immortality, or how else could they be forever with the Lord?
Christ also hints at this. While talking of the end times, he said that there would be some standing there that would not taste of death.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Originally posted by darkelf
Verse 26 is an interval between the 69 weeks and the 70th week of judgment. It deals with things after verse 25 but before verse 27. The threescore and two weeks (62 years) added to the week (seven years) it took to build the temple gives us 69 weeks. Then Messiah was crucified and the temple was destroyed. This interval is the Church Age and has no time frame.
Originally posted by miriam0566
Originally posted by darkelf
Verse 26 is an interval between the 69 weeks and the 70th week of judgment. It deals with things after verse 25 but before verse 27. The threescore and two weeks (62 years) added to the week (seven years) it took to build the temple gives us 69 weeks. Then Messiah was crucified and the temple was destroyed. This interval is the Church Age and has no time frame.
you had me until this part.
why would you add years to this ¨70 week¨ period? if its a year for a day, then the 70 week period ends in 36 AD.
that means that the events described in this passage have nothing to do with the tribulation or false prophet.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.