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Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

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posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


You haven't read the bible? How can you talk about our physical body being a tent for our spirit? The only thing about our physical body that separates at death is the "Breath of Life" which is God's essence of life for us. The bible teaches about "transfiguration" to spirit which is the transformation from a physical body to a spiritual body. This is what Jesus did. He remained in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights before being resurrected from the grave. He even stayed with His apostles for 40 days before accending to heaven. Miriam does agree with me on this point. She agrees that when you die, you remain in your grave until the return of Jesus. At that point we disagree. She believes Jesus has taken His throne in 1914 and that from 1914 on, heaven is available to all. I believe Jesus will return in the future and set His kingdom up on earth. The bible says this but miriam believe's it's a metaphorical kingdom ruled from heaven. I believe it will be ruled from earth. I believe in spirit beings with a physical aspect such as Jesus when He resurrected and was among the apostles (acts 1). In this sense, you are still spirit or immortal, but with an apearance that seems physical. This is similar to what Adam and Eve were except, they were not spirit. They were simply immortal humans as long as they followed the rules of God. When the rules were broken, immortality left the flesh.




posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
She believes ....that from 1914 on, heaven is available to all.


not at all. only the chosen 144,000 have any hope of going to heaven.

i know that when i die, if i am resurrected, it will be on earth.


I believe in spirit beings with a physical aspect such as Jesus when He resurrected and was among the apostles (acts 1). In this sense, you are still spirit or immortal, but with an apearance that seems physical.


i was waiting for you to explain your beliefs on this. i couldnt understand why you felt they would be resurrected in spirit and still be on earth.

thing is, angels can materialize bodies. there are several examples of this like the ¨sons of god¨ having relations with women on earth. or when angels came to earth to relay messages.

materializing a body doesnt mean that they ARE the body. their body is spiritual. and any physical body they have wouldnt be THEM the same way our bodies ARE us. it would be more likened to a puppet or costume. its not them. they can dematerialize them when they are done. in the end, they are still spirits living in the spiritual realm.

we know this because 1 cor 15 specifically states that a spiritual body is different from a physical body. if jesus was resurrected in the flesh, then he would not be able to ascend to heaven would he? yet the apostles saw him and were able to touch him much like the angels were able to grab lot and his family and lead them out of sodom. his body was materialized, so it was tangible, but is not evidence that jesus was flesh. he was transfigured in his resurrection to spirit

thing is ¨transfiguration¨ requires death. we know jesus died, because if he didnt die, then the ransom is not paid and we are still slaves to sin. there is no evidence to support transfiguration without death. even the supposed ¨rapture¨ scripture of being caught in the clouds with jesus doesnt rule out death.

excerpt on 1 thessalonians 4:13-18 by walter westphal


Some interpreters believe that the Thessalonians did not really have any doubt about the resurrection of the body. They say that the question bothering the church was whether the Christians who had died would rise soon enough to share in the joyful, glorious moment of Christ’s return. That interpretation could explain Paul’s desire to stress in these verses the promise of an immediate resurrection of believers (as he also does in I Corinthians 15:52) and the promise that they will actually participate in that event (cf. v. 17).

Note that like the KJV we are translating the phrase dia_ tou~ )Ihsou~, “in Jesus,” rather than “through Jesus.” C. Moule suggests that dia_ tou~ )Ihsou~ is an idiomatic expression which is no different from e)n Xristw|~ in verse 16. Some other translators feel strongly that the dia_ tou~ )Ihsou~ phrase should be connected with the verb “bring,” “God will through Jesus bring those who fell asleep with him.” Either way, the point is that the “sleeping” bodies of believers will not only be glorified, rejoined with their souls and raised, but this will happen at the very moment of Christ’s majestic return. They will not miss a thing.


being caught up implies that they wouldnt ¨sleep¨. they still die, they are just resurrected instantly if they die AFTER the return of christ.

there is nothing, nothing to suggest that a person can become a spirit without dying.


This is similar to what Adam and Eve were except, they were not spirit. They were simply immortal humans as long as they followed the rules of God. When the rules were broken, immortality left the flesh.


there is a difference between everlasting life, and immortality. to have everlasting life means that you are allowed to live forever. that god would not let you die. however everlasting life is conditional. you disobey god, you lose your right.

immortality is different. immortality means you are exempt from death. you cannot die. immortality is unconditional.

adam and eve had the prospect of living forever, but they were not immortal. we know this because the proof is simple. they died.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



I am totally lost here now. When it comes to the resurrection i thought that this was in two stages. Two stages before we get sent before Jesus the butchered lamb on the great throne of Judgement.

First the Devil is chained and cast into the pit. And God puts a seal on him or something like that. So he cant be known. This happend when when Lucifer wages war with God in heaven.
Then there is a lot of bla bla bla just joking this to is important
until the end is near.

The first resurrection. Defeating the Beast and the false prophet.

That happens when Jesus sat out on his whit horse to judge and make war with the governments and people here on earth. In other words Jesus gathered his fa lowers to engage a war against the armies of the Beast and the false prophet.

The Beast and the false Prophet is defeated in this staged and cast into the lake of fire for ever.

Then a 1000 year reign here on earth is made where Jesus is going to reign with the once who where a witness of him and butchered in Gods name. These are all called the saints. These will be resurrected in flesh to reign here on earth with Jesus for a 1000 years. These have to be the 144 000. But when you talk about a time span i guess some of these saints will also still be alive when this takes place and will join Jesus when the beast and the false prophet is defeated.

The other souls had to wait under the alter or something like that until this 1000 year reign was done. Because when they cried out to God and asked!! How long do we have to wait. Then God tells them to have patients because there are still people who is going to earn their place in the new heaven. Meaning after the 1000 year reign the Devil is let loose and evil will be at it again. And the children of the saints will be tested in their faith.

Then the Devil is let loos from his prison after Jesus and the saint children have reign for a 1000 years. And the final battle will begin. When the Devil gathers a great army to wage war against the children of the saints.

God defeats the Devil and cast him into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet is to suffer for ever. I dont know to much about this part i but i have read somewhere that God will destroy earth and the Devil with fire from heaven.



Then the final resurrection is going to happen.

I know that in this part a second death is used for the once who are judged and not found in the book of life. They are cast into the lake of fire where the Devil,Beast and the false prophet is for ever. But i can only understand that the second death is a spiritual death,Because flesh wont burn for ever. Only the soul or spirit can suffer for ever. Man i feel sorry for them and i hope i am not one of them.

Then God makes a new heaven and a new earth. because the old earth has passed away. And a new Jerusalem is going to come down from heaven and onto earth. I think this is also described as the bride coming from heaven and down to earth.

I am probably going to be corrected on this because i am just plucking this out of my mind




PS. When i think about it. The souls that are under the alter who is crying to God must be us after we die. We must become spirits or we wouldn't be able to talk to god. And we wouldn't have been waiting for anything if we where just dead or non existing.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:43 PM
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My understanding is that heaven was made for God and the angels. It is also where the wedding feast for the Bride of Christ will take place. After the final judgment, there will be a new heaven and a new earth to replace the current ones. The new earth is where the followers of God will reside.

Hell was created for Satan and the angels that followed him. This is where all those who reject God will eventually end. If you require scriptures, I’ll be happy to look them up for you.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
I am totally lost here now. When it comes to the resurrection i thought that this was in two stages. Two stages before we get sent before Jesus the butchered lamb on the great throne of Judgement.


there is two stages. first resurrection and a second.

the events that me and locoman are debating are the details of the first resurrection.

both jesus and the apostles make it clear that the first resurrection doesnt occur until the return of christ.

john 11:[23] Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
[24] Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
[25] Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

1 thess 4:[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

if you cross reference verse 17 with 1 cor 15, we get an interesting picture. people like paul and peter and john died and spent time ¨sleeping¨ in death. when jesus arrives, then things change for those who participate in the 1st resurrection. they do not ¨sleep¨. instead they die and are instantly raised.

the point me and locoman disagree on is that i believe the resurrection is to heaven and he believes that it is to earth.

scriptures like
eph 2:[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
are more figurative to locoman than they are to me.

but spy, to understand the resurrections you have to understand the condition of the dead. (eccl 9;5,10 and ezekial 18;4)


When i think about it. The souls that are under the alter who is crying to God must be us after we die. We must become spirits or we wouldn't be able to talk to god. And we wouldn't have been waiting for anything if we where just dead.


remember that abel´s blood cried out for justice too. abel was dead. so likely this cry for justice is figurative in that god´s perfect justice demands and answer for their deaths.


But i can only understand that the second death is a spiritual death,Because flesh wont burn for ever. Only the soul or spirit can suffer for ever.


death doesnt equal torture. remember that the dead arent conscience of anything at all. they cant suffer. also remember too that death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire too.

lake of fire stands for eternal destruction.

i went into this more thoroughly here....

www.belowtopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



Before i read all that. I have a brief question for you. Aren't we in the same boat as Able when we die. Why is Able under the alter and not us! Or did i understand you wrong. Or dose God separate us even in death by our sins. Or is it just a figure of speech for the dead resting and being non existing until we get resurrected. Ehm but then again how could Able cry to God if he is resting in the ground.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
Before i read all that. I have a brief question for you. Aren't we in the same boat as Able when we die. Why is Able under the alter and not us! Or did i understand you wrong. Or dose God separate us even in death by our sins. Or is it just a figure of speech for the dead resting and being non existing until we get resurrected.


technically.... able is not under the alter. that passage in revelation is speaking of a very specific group. its those who are the 144,000 who are called to heaven.

they die (for whatever reason) and wait for jesus to return to be resurrected.

they are dead (nonexistant), but some, or alot, have been martyred. like ables blood, theirs calls out to god for justice.

anyway as for us (you, me, able), we take part in the 2nd resurrection, that of the just and unjust. when i die, i go to hell (or the grave) which means i wont exist, however i would likely have the hope of being resurrected. those in hell (the grave) are not separated or judged until we are raised on judgment day (christ´s millennial reign). it is then that we have the oppurtunity to prove ourselves in a world free of satan.

deep i know. but im honeslty exhausted so i cant give you a more indepth response at the moment, im sorry.

i touch on the hell doctrine in the link i provided in the post above.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


It's ok you did a great job. Thanks!!! Now you can rest
And ill read that huge poste you have on all of this.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I get what you're saying and I agree that angels can take on a fleshly form or body that isn't them. Also, I think you are jumping the gun when you say that a transfiguration involves death before the body becomes spirit. If that is so, how do you explain Jesus transfiguring in front of His apostles? The same thing happened to two dead prophets.... Moses and Elijah for this temporary display of messiahship for Jesus by God. Jesus was in fact alive when He transfigured to spirit and was still alive when He transfigured back to the physical body. Along with the so-called "rapture" verse in 2 Thessalonians, I think there is an argument that those who belong to the 144,000 saints that are still alive at the return of Christ will not die and transfigure but simply transfigure and meet Jesus along with the dead who rose as transfigured spirits. I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying there is an argument there because there's no conclusive evidence that you have to die to transfigure.... Unless you account for the verse in Romans stating that the punishment of sin is death. A simple account can be made here because the saints would have had to undertaken water and spiritual baptism in which they bury the sinful body or lay it to rest. Just laying out possibilities. Also, I'm glad I could make it clearer for you on the spirit/physical for my argument of spirits on earth.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
there is nothing, nothing to suggest that a person can become a spirit without dying.


1CORINTHIANS 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The word translated as corruption means decayed (rotted away), and the word translated as sleep means to be deceased, to be dead. The word translated as mortal mean liable to die, meaning it is not yet dead. Verse 51 says that not all the ellect will be dead, but all shall be changed. Verse 52 says at the last trump, the dead will be raised, and we (the living) will be changed. Verse 53 talks of the mortal (not yet dead) putting on immortality, so yes there is verses that suggest that a person can become immortal without dying, that is what Paul is talking about saying not all will be dead, but all will be "changed".

Now if you for some reason think that is not what he is talking about, Paul makes this even clearer....

1THESSALONIANS 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This plainly states there will be some still alive who are changed to immortality, or how else could they be forever with the Lord?

Christ also hints at this. While talking of the end times, he said that there would be some standing there that would not taste of death.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by spy66
 


One thing you have to understand is the fact that John saw visions in his account of Revelation. The saints crying out under the altar or from their graves for redemption is a metaphore and not actually what happens. The picture here is that Jesus is getting ready to avenge the blood of His saints. You have to also understand that a human body does not posess spirit but transforms into spirit when resurrected to life or added to the book of life. In the first resurrection, those who rise, rise to a transformed or transfigured spiritual body because they posess immortality. Those in the 2nd resurrection rise to their original fleshly body for judgement. Those who are found worthy become children of God. My guess is they transfigure to spirit as well or put on a new physical body that doesn't die. Those not found worthy or deny God in His presence are cast into the lake of fire and die... for a second and final die. The bible never teaches everlasting torment in fire but permanent death. You see, those resurrected physically do not receive a spiritual body unless they repent and accept God in His presence at judgement. Since physical bodies don't posess spirit, they burn and die in the fire. Keep this in mind and realize that "Hell" is a word falsely used in the bible because there are 4 different meanings in the bible for this horrible translation of words. In most cases "hell" means "death" or "grave". In a number of cases the word "Gehenna" is used mainly by Jesus to explain the "Lake of Fire" but researching "gehenna" you find that it was an actual place in south Jerusalem used for a waste site during the years of Jesus' ministry. Dead animal bodies and criminal corpses would be among the trash and it would stay burning day and night. The interesting thing here is that Jesus used it to explain the fate of the wicked. A place of fire where there's a lot of dead bodies..... you see the picture? They die, not live in torment. The final word translated to "Hell" in the bible is used only once is the greek word "tartarus" and is in 2 Peter 2:4 explaining the imprisonment of the angels of darkness or satan's angels being in confinement. My suggestion is for you to read the bible. Read the New King James Version because of all translations to english, it's the most accurate... though not completely. Use a reference bible also that way you can see some of the translations and cross-references to research.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
I think you are jumping the gun when you say that a transfiguration involves death before the body becomes spirit. If that is so, how do you explain Jesus transfiguring in front of His apostles? The same thing happened to two dead prophets.... Moses and Elijah for this temporary display of messiahship for Jesus by God. Jesus was in fact alive when He transfigured to spirit and was still alive when He transfigured back to the physical body.


ok, i understand what your saying, but is there anything in the scriptures that suggests that the transfiguration was more than just a display? i havent seen any scripture that suggests that. so its quite possible it wasnt a literal transfiguration but rather to show what will happen in the future


Along with the so-called "rapture" verse in 2 Thessalonians, I think there is an argument that those who belong to the 144,000 saints that are still alive at the return of Christ will not die and transfigure but simply transfigure and meet Jesus along with the dead who rose as transfigured spirits.


the key to that scripture is understanding the ¨last trump¨. alot of people immediately think of revelation with the trumpet blasts. but if you look at the trumpet blasts, it doesnt coincide with the arrival of jesus. that and there are 2 trumps mentioned which gives this awkward translations

¨at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound,¨

it is possible (only saying possible) that ¨last trump¨ is referring to something else, like a persons final moments. then after god´s trumpet sounds. just a theory

the second things that lends me to believe that all the 144000 die is that they all take part in the 1st resurrection, not those who are resurrected and those who are changed. revelation is somewhat clear about that.


Unless you account for the verse in Romans stating that the punishment of sin is death. A simple account can be made here because the saints would have had to undertaken water and spiritual baptism in which they bury the sinful body or lay it to rest.


that is a tough one to call. i would say that that is a separate aspect. judging by the fact that people can fall away and lose their inheritance even after being baptised, i would say that you are not ¨sealed¨until you die faithfully.

paul also mentioned running the race to the finish. ¨finish¨meaning faithful unto death.

there are lots of scripture that suggest that death is necessary, but i think 1 cor 15 mentions it in more specific terms when it says that ¨flesh and blood cannot inherit god´s kingdom¨.


Also, I'm glad I could make it clearer for you on the spirit/physical for my argument of spirits on earth.


i dont agree lol, but at least not i see what your saying



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 04:27 AM
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Originally posted by doctorex
This plainly states there will be some still alive who are changed to immortality, or how else could they be forever with the Lord?


actually it says they would be alive when the lord arrives. after the lord arrive, they would not ¨sleep¨ but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. it doesnt say that they will be changed while still alive.

the reason i say that is because there is an obvious contrast to those who die and sleep for a period of time and those who die and are changed instantly.


Christ also hints at this. While talking of the end times, he said that there would be some standing there that would not taste of death.


actually he said ¨Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.¨

immediately after that verse (a few days after) he took peter, james, and john up the mountain for the vision of the transfiguration. he wasnt lying, they did see his coming in his kingdom.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


i reread the transfiguration. i think it was a vision.

matt 17:[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 06:14 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 



Thanks!!! This and what miriam is saying in her post on death and hell makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for the great post and good knowledge. Now i can add some more to my thought on this mater.
I am new to accepting God so i have a lot to learn about details on this subject. So keep the questions rolling so i can get some more input.

Thanks again



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 08:18 AM
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In order to understand the book of Revelation, you need to understand the 70 weeks of Daniel. Daniel 9: 24-27


24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


In the previous verses, Daniel state that he had been reading from the prophet Jerimiah and understood that their captivity was near its end. He began to pray to God for Israel asking forgiveness of their sins. In verses 20-23, his prayers were interrupted by Gabriel who then in verses 24-27 gives Daniel a new prophecy of the judgment of Israel.

Verse 24 gives the overall scope of the judgment of God on Israel; that there are still seventy weeks (prophetic years) of judgment due to God’s people Israel.

Verse 25 states that from the time of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah will be 69 years. Counting 69 years from the time Artaxeres gives Nehamiah permission to rebuild Jerusalem you come to Palm Sunday when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the donkey and proclaiming Himself as their Messiah.

Verse 26 is an interval between the 69 weeks and the 70th week of judgment. It deals with things after verse 25 but before verse 27. The threescore and two weeks (62 years) added to the week (seven years) it took to build the temple gives us 69 weeks. Then Messiah was crucified and the temple was destroyed. This interval is the Church Age and has no time frame.

Verse 27 is the final week of judgment or the Tribulation. The he in verse 27 refers to the prince that shall come in verse 26. He is the false messiah that shall deceive many. The “people of the prince that shall come” is a reference to a revived Roman Empire. Keep in mind that the Roman Empire had two legs, one in Europe and the other in Asia and Africa. The Eastern leg outlived the western leg by many years. The 70th week is God’s judgment on Israel to bring them back to Him and His judgment against an unbelieving world that rejects Him. The Church (Body of Christ) is not “appointed to wrath” so does not enter into the tribulation.

Why is understanding Daniel important to understanding the book of Revelation? In Matthew chapter 24 and 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21, we see four disciples (Peter, James, John, and Andrew) come to Jesus and ask when will He return, what are the signs of His coming, and when is the end of the world. Jesus refers to the book of Daniel and the abomination of desolation as a sign of His triumphant return.

The Church does not replace Israel. They have different missions and destinies. Read Romans 9, 10, and 11. There are three categories of people; Jews, Gentiles and the Church which is neither Jew nor Gentile. The seven parables that Jesus spoke deal with the Church which was a secret in the old Testament and the “mystery” that Paul spoke of.

The harpazo in the Greek is the catching away or the snatching out of the world which the modern person calls the rapture. It is rapturo in the Latin Vulgate. Jesus tells the Church of Philadelphia that He will keep them from the hour of temptation (the Tribulation) but He tells the Church of Thyatira that they will be cast into the Tribulation.

The seven churches were seven actual churches at that time. They are also prophetic of seven church ages. The church names, meanings and prophetic church ages are:

Ephesus (desired one) The Apostolic Church
Smyrna (death) The Persecuted Church
Pergamos (perverse marriage) The Legal Church
Thyatira (daughter) The Medieval Church
Sardis (empty or no name) The Denominational Church
Philadelphia (friendly or brotherly love) The Evangelical (Missionary) Church
Laodicea (rule by the people) Apostate Church

The rapture is not a new idea. It was taught in the early Church, but the Medieval Church suppressed this teaching for many years. It was during the age of the Church of Philadelphia that the doctrine of the rapture was resurrected and regained popularity.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Verse 26 is an interval between the 69 weeks and the 70th week of judgment. It deals with things after verse 25 but before verse 27. The threescore and two weeks (62 years) added to the week (seven years) it took to build the temple gives us 69 weeks. Then Messiah was crucified and the temple was destroyed. This interval is the Church Age and has no time frame.


you had me until this part.

why would you add years to this ¨70 week¨ period? if its a year for a day, then the 70 week period ends in 36 AD.

that means that the events described in this passage have nothing to do with the tribulation or false prophet.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 12:03 PM
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i would like to first say that I am greatful to you all who have posted on this thread for being curtious in your responses. It is encouraging to see this among christians.
I do have a question or a train of thought that I think is relative to this topic. Here goes... When Adam was created in the garden, the bible says he was created in the image of God. I believe it is safe to assume that God is a spirit. So was Adam originally a spirit? Also, God told Adam not to eat of that certain tree or in that day he would surely die. Now by our earthly standard of time, Adam did not die that day but lived almost a thousand years. So I know that one day with the lord is as a thousand years, so I know it is not a contradiction. Maybe though he did die that day, spiritually, since anything incorruptable cannot be in the presence of a holy and incorruptable God he drove Adam in his newly fallen nature out. Adam could no longer commune with God like he did before
There is more to this but I am being distracted and I am finding it hard to concentrate on what's in my head, sorry. Gonna go talk to my kids for a moment. Your comments are welcome.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 12:21 PM
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Sorry I meant to say anything corruptable or corrupted cannot be in the presence of a incorruptable holy God.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 



Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by darkelf
Verse 26 is an interval between the 69 weeks and the 70th week of judgment. It deals with things after verse 25 but before verse 27. The threescore and two weeks (62 years) added to the week (seven years) it took to build the temple gives us 69 weeks. Then Messiah was crucified and the temple was destroyed. This interval is the Church Age and has no time frame.


you had me until this part.

why would you add years to this ¨70 week¨ period? if its a year for a day, then the 70 week period ends in 36 AD.


I’m not quite sure what you mean. A week is seven year prophetically speaking. Verse 25 mentions 69 weeks where verse 26 only mentions 62. But verse 26 leaves out the first seven which was 49 years to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. Many people are confused about the missing seven weeks in verse 26 so I added it in for clarification.

Weeks are not being added. All but the last week of years have been accounted for; there is still seven years of God’s judgment that has not happened.

Had the people been as diligent in reading the scriptures as Daniel was, they would have recognized Jesus as Messiah when He rode into Jerusalem on the donkey. This is why He weeps over Jerusalem before He enters. It ushered the Church age into history and will not pick up again until the Church age is complete and the Church is removed from the earth.


that means that the events described in this passage have nothing to do with the tribulation or false prophet.


Not necessarily. The temple and the city of Jerusalem was destroyed in verse 26. There has to be a third temple for the next verse to take place. Verse 27 hasn’t happened yet.


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Hope that clears things up.



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