Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

Why is it, we can't find out what to expect when we reach heaven in the Holy Bible? What would we do in heaven? Pluck harps? Gaze upon God? British historian and author Paul Johnson says, "Heaven... lacks genuine incentive. Indeed, it lacks definition of any kind. It is the great hole in theology." (The Quest for God, 1996, p.173). The Bible does not say the righteous will recieve heaven as their reward. The Bible reveals that God has something else in mind... something far different and far superior to most people's concepts about heaven.

Ask yourself a simple question: Would a merciful God inflict excruciating pain and torment on human beings for millions and millions of years - throughout all eternity? Could the great Creator God of the universe be that unfeeling and uncaring?

Traditional beliefs about heaven and hell are based on an underlying teaching... that everyone has an immortal soul that must go somewhere after the physical life ends. What does the Bible say about the existence of an immortal soul? Does this belief have a foundation in scripture? The words "immortal" and "soul" appear together nowhere in the Bible. If it isn't found in the Bible, where did the idea originate? Belief in the separation of body and soul was popular in Greek society and was taught by the philosopher, Plato. In Plato's thinking, the soul.... "existed before the body which it inhabited, and which it would survive." (Fudge, p.32). When did this concept enter christianity? The Old Testament does not teach this idea. The first-century Church did not hold to this belief, either. It is a post-apostolic innovation that is harmful to proper biblical interpretation and understanding. No biblical text authorizes the statement that the 'soul' is separated from the body at the moment of death. Should we accept a teaching that is non-biblical?

The Old Testament teaches that the soul dies. Genesis 2:7 states that Adam became a "living soul" when created. In Genesis 9:12 the same Hebrew words are translated "living creature" and refers only to animals, not humans. We are shown that man will "surely die" (Gen. 2:17) and that man will "return to dust" (Gen. 3:19). In the Old Testament, man is referred to as a "soul" (Hebrew, nephesh) more than 130 times. The term also applied to sea creatures (Gen. 1:20-21), land animals (verse 24) and birds (verse 30). Soul refers to any "living creature" as opposed to an eternal separate essence temporarily inhabiting the body. Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20 states "the sould who sins shall die." This shows the soul "dies" and is a physical being. The scriptures tell us the dead do not have consciousness. "For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing.... (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

The New Testament mentions permanent death for the wicked in several statements. In Matthew 7:13-14 in exhorting His disciples to choose the way that leads to life. Jesus stated that the end of those who do not choose life is "destruction." Paul also stated that the wicked will die. In Romans 6:20-21 he talks about those who were slaves of sin and says that for them "the end of those things is death." Romans 6:23 plainly says "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." This proves that the punishment of the wicked is death, not a life of eternal suffering. It also proves that we do not already posess eternal life. It is something God chooses to give us. In 1 Timothy 6:16 Paul states that "God alon has immortality." In Galatians 6:8 Paul states "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." This tells us that sinners will eventually reap destruction and the obediant will recieve eternal life. In Philippians 3:18-19 Paul speaks of those who are "enemies of the cross of Christ." and how their end is "destruction," and not eternal torment after death. In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Paul says the wicked will come to a complete end: "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord..."

So, does man have an immortal soul? The Bible declares that man is temporary, of the dust of the earth. Immortality is only achieved through a resurrection from God. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 shows that immortality is only achieved at the resurrection, not at the end of one's physical life.

Now that the truth about immortal soul teachings has been uncovered let's look at one simple verse in the bible that proves no man other than Jesus is in or will enter heaven:

John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Not enough proof? How about Acts 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens....."

And then hellfire and the gnashing of teeth in torment.
In Matthew 25:30 it reads: 'And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

This verse references to Psalms 112:10 so let's see what that says:
"The wicked will see it and be grieved; He will gnash his teeth and melt away; The desire of the wicked shall perish.

Now word association shows that "gnashing of teeth" occurs followed by "melting away" and the "desire of the wicked... perish."

So you see, hellfire is a 2nd death.... not everlasting torment. All verses with hellfire mentioned or the punishment of wicked people refers to them all perishing or being destroyed... not sufferring eternally.

....Review.....
-The Bible does not teach doctrine of an immortal soul
-The Bible teaches us that no man enters heaven but Jesus (John 3:13)
-The Bible teaches us that the wicked burn up and die... not suffer eternally (Malachi 4:3, Psalms 112:10)

There are many more references but let's see what people say about this bit of proof. On a side note, I am not interested in ridicule by an athiest or scientologist. This thread was inteded for "self-proclaimed" christians and theologens. Civil comments are welcome by anyone though.

i agree with alot of what your saying, infact i used alot of the scriptures you quoted alot of times on this forum.

however you are missing a few things. ill post alot of it later but i wanted to at least mention one thing.

Originally posted by Locoman8
John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

¨no one HAS ASCENDED¨ is past perfect, reflecting an event that starts in the past and finishes now. meaning that noone before this statement was made ascended to heaven. it does not imply people will not go to heaven in the future

First thanks for a well thought out post. I can see you certainly put some time into it

But... I don't see how you equate your interpretation on various verses as proof. Seems a little cocky to me to be honest. Also, you say "now that this Truth has been uncovered". Hey, again thanks for this well written post, but this interpretation is not new. I have seen it before myself more then once.

I have a bunch of questions I am interested in hearing a response from you on. I'll post them soon.


[edit on 11-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Revelations talk about the second death during the Second Coming? For all of those that are currently in Hell, God throws them into the pit of fire and kills them all.

Also as for no one being in Heaven currently, what about Jesus turning to the thief next to him on the cross saying "on this day you shall be with me in paradise"?

Or is paradise not Heaven? That is a legitimate question, not sarcasm. I've heard that the words "paradise" and "Heaven" are two different words in Bible and describe two different things. The two words are "Hades and Sheol".

And isn't there something in the Bible that mentions two dead men seeing each other -- one that is righteous and one that is not? I forgot the specific story...

I think it may be Lazarus?

Get back to me. Thank you.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by cetta]

reply to post by miriam0566


Agreed. No one in the past has ascended, doesn't mean no one WILL ascend. Doesn't the Bible also teach Jesus going down into hell and freeing all the righteous souls?

Originally posted by cetta
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Revelations talk about the second death during the Second Coming? For all of those that are currently in Hell, God throws them into the pit of fire and kills them all.

it is after this second coming that the resurrection takes place. so it makes sense that the second death would be around that time too.

Also as for no one being in Heaven currently, what about Jesus turning to the thief next to him on the cross saying "on this day you shall be with me in paradise"?

if the dead are not existant, then to them they are not aware of the passage of time. from the thief´s point of view, he was instantly resurrected even though he is dead now (from everyone else´s POV).

Or is paradise not Heaven? That is a legitimate question, not sarcasm. I've heard that the words "paradise" and "Heaven" are two different words in Bible and describe two different things. The two words are "Hades and Sheol".

sheol and hades translate grave or hell. sheol is hebrew and hades is greek

paradise is earth. heaven is heaven lol. consider this, wasnt adam created on a paradise on earth?

And isn't there something in the Bible that mentions two dead men seeing each other -- one that is righteous and one that is not? I forgot the specific story...

jewish leaders in that day were haughty and kept the people spiritually starved, jesus was illustrating what would happen after his death and how their roles would be reversed. the people themselves would prophecy.

Originally posted by cetta
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Agreed. No one in the past has ascended, doesn't mean no one WILL ascend. Doesn't the Bible also teach Jesus going down into hell and freeing all the righteous souls?

actually it says he went to hell. being as he was dead for 3 days and hell is the grave it makes sense

And man, not God, not Christ, wrote the Bible

None of what's contained in the OP is confirmed by NDEs
or by the dying (who see and hear their deceased loved ones
quite often) or by post-death communication between the deceased
and living

I wasn't there when men were writing the Bible
but I know how often humans lie to bolster their agenda

So, I choose to put faith in the testimony and experiences
of ordinary people, who say they see glorious vistas during
NDEs as well as being overwhelmed by perfect love and
acceptance.

And I trust accounts provided, again by ordinary people, about
being contacted by deceased loved ones who assure them
they are well, happy and in a better place

Religion has an agenda and one of these is control

Control is achieved via carrot and stick, by threat and promise

in this way, humanity is kept afraid and obedient

First off, I am a biblical believer. If it's in the bible, I believe it because one repeated premise of christianity is that the bible is the inspired word of God. You don't have to believe it.

As far as near-death experiences and talking to loved ones in the afterlife, you only need to be aware of the fact that even Satan can transform into an angel of light. Satan has his army of angels as well who are all spirit beings. This could explain the fact that satan is using the tactic of glory and comfort in order to keep people believing. I'm not saying that's how it is but it's a possible reason for the NDE cases and such.

reply to post by Locoman8


So you are saying since almost all NDE experience doesn't validate what you believe about the Bible then it's most likely Satan's deception?

reply to post by miriam0566


You mention that maybe later people will go to heaven but I throw this idea at you.... if people accend up to heaven then why does a resurrection take place? The whole point of God's plan is to make peace on earth and make Christ king over the earth. What's our business in heaven? The bible doesn't say we go to heaven. It mentions the "kingdom of heaven" in matthew but that refers to the kingdom on earth ruled by Christ which came from heaven. Other gospels mention it as the "Kingdom of God". As for the second death, it happens after the 2nd resurrection which happens after the 1000 year peace. All remain in the grave until their appointed resurrection weather it be the 1st or 2nd. Just read Revelation 19-21... specifically chapter 20.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I'm just saying it's a possibility. Satan decieves and he's real good at it. I believe the bible. If you are christian, you should believe it also because it's considered holy scripture. Mens hands wrote the bible but it was under divine inspiration as if God was writing the words and the prophets and patriarchs were just moving thier hands. The whole point of this thread is to call BS on everlasting torment in fire and BS in going to heaven the minute you die. There are resurrections in the bible and how can you be resurrected if you're already in heaven? Jesus was the firstfruit of the harvest or the first to be resurrected. It is a fleshly resurrection. Just refer to Ezekiel 37 where he's in the valley of dry bones.

You have some good points there. Awesome song by the way heaven and hell.

reply to post by Locoman8


I believe in a creator God. I believe in Divinity. I do not believe in the Bible.

I do know why the people that believe in the Bible believe in the Bible

Anyways, as I mentioned earlier I do have some questions about what you said. I am juggling a few tasks right now but I will post them pretty soon.

Well, I'll be ready for them. Just a side note if you haven't figured it out yet. I am an Apostolic Christian. Non-protestant and non-catholic but of the 1st century church of the apostles.

reply to post by Locoman8


I was thinking along those lines yes

Thanks for the input. Seems like many of the Bibilians here don't specify which Church they belong to for some reason?...

Well, I don't belong to a specific church unless you use the idea of 2 or 3 gathering. My wife and mother-in-law talk all the time and they are both pentacostal baptists but I have made an impact on both of them. My wife use to argue me down for my beliefs but after doing the research herself, she believed it too. I follow a lot of my research with the United Church of God.

I'm a Catholic. An important part of Catholocism is its Ecclessiology wherein we are united with the whole Church not only geographically but temporally and spiritually. What the Church teaches today it does not do so on its own but based upon the experiences of grace of 2,000 years of members. It is to this "collective consciousness" that the intellect and will submit in the humble recognition that my own interpretations do not suffice it is essential to defer to the definitions of the Mystical Body of Christ. This is the apostolic tradition as lived by the early Church and since then throughout its history.
The teaching authority of the Church is the manifestation of this (mystical) corporate identity. Those with positions of apostolic authority are not to innovate acording to their own isolated interpretation but to maintain and preserve and "hand on" (traditio) the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic faith.

I would, for the sake of brevity, refer the OP's author and other's to the "compendium" of this faith The Catechism of the Catholic Church and particularly paragraphs 1021-1029. What is stated in these paragraphs is exhaustively, and appropriately, referenced to the tradition of the Church. Refer yourselves to this references and see the biblical and magesterial basis for the dogmatic belief in Particular Judgement and Heaven.

[edit on 11/10/08 by Supercertari]

reply to post by Supercertari

I. The Particular Judgment

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.595

www.vatican.va...

reply to post by Dock6

I wasn't there when men were writing the Bible
but I know how often humans lie to bolster their agenda

So, do you think the Bible is full of lies, and that truth is to be found in NDE's?
I am not saying that people are lying when they describe their experiences but I do not think they qualify as divine inspiration. They are what are manufactured inside people's minds and are not visions given by God.
The inspiration of the scripture can be described as:

"An extraordinary divine agency upon teachers while giving instruction, whether oral or written, by which they were taught how and what they should speak or write" Knapp

[edit on 11-10-2008 by jmdewey60]