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Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

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posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by One4truth
 



Originally posted by One4truth
i would like to first say that I am greatful to you all who have posted on this thread for being curtious in your responses. It is encouraging to see this among christians.
I do have a question or a train of thought that I think is relative to this topic. Here goes... When Adam was created in the garden, the bible says he was created in the image of God. I believe it is safe to assume that God is a spirit. So was Adam originally a spirit?


This is a difficult question to answer. We are bound by 4 dimensions. God is outside of those dimensions and so He is not bound by them. In fact, scientist believe that there are at least 10 dimensions (11 if you count string theory) and that is how particles are able to exist in many localities at once. God is triune or what most people call the Trinity. He is three separate beings yet He is one. I believe that our being created in His image means two things. One, that we are triune; that is we are body, soul and spirit. And two, that we were created with the freedom to chose or reject God.


Also, God told Adam not to eat of that certain tree or in that day he would surely die. Now by our earthly standard of time, Adam did not die that day but lived almost a thousand years. So I know that one day with the lord is as a thousand years, so I know it is not a contradiction. Maybe though he did die that day, spiritually, since anything incorruptable cannot be in the presence of a holy and incorruptable God he drove Adam in his newly fallen nature out. Adam could no longer commune with God like he did before


The Bible didn’t say how long they were in the garden before they disobeyed God. Adam and Eve began dying physically the day they ate of that tree. They were created with perfect bodies so it took a long time for their bodies to give out on them. I believe that their understanding that they were naked was a physical transformation from that perfect state to their fallen one. They became bound by the four dimensions we are bound by now.


There is more to this but I am being distracted and I am finding it hard to concentrate on what's in my head, sorry. Gonna go talk to my kids for a moment. Your comments are welcome.


Hope that helped.




posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by One4truth
When Adam was created in the garden, the bible says he was created in the image of God. I believe it is safe to assume that God is a spirit. So was Adam originally a spirit?


not necessarily, image means that he had the qualities of god. like freewill, love, his sense of justice.

also consider that the garden was on earth. adam was made from dust. these point to a physical existence not spiritual.


Also, God told Adam not to eat of that certain tree or in that day he would surely die. Now by our earthly standard of time, Adam did not die that day but lived almost a thousand years. So I know that one day with the lord is as a thousand years, so I know it is not a contradiction. Maybe though he did die that day, spiritually, since anything corruptable cannot be in the presence of a holy and incorruptible God he drove Adam in his newly fallen nature out. Adam could no longer commune with God like he did before


in a way yes. adam as a sinner put himself and his offspring in an alienated position with god.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Weeks are not being added. All but the last week of years have been accounted for; there is still seven years of God’s judgment that has not happened.


my question is, why would you count the weeks, stop, then continue?

in other words, why would that last week not happen immediately after the previous 69 weeks? it doesnt make sense.

the angel said seventy weeks then gives a start date. logically the full 70 weeks would run its course without stopping. not 69 weeks, 2000+ years, then 1 week.


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


thing is, your slightly miscalculating. the order to rebuild jerusalem went out 455 BC. first 7 weeks came to 406 BC which was the point that jerusalem was more or less rebuilt. 62 weeks from there brings you to 29 AD. 29 was the baptism of christ, not him entering the city on an ass. when he entered jerusalem, yes it was him admitting he was the messiah, but he actually started being the messiah when he was baptized.

to confirm the covenant means to keep the covenant in effect. not to make a new one.

GOD made a covenant with the seed of abraham and this is the covenant that would continue to be in effect for one week after the baptism of jesus.

in the midst of the week, or half way through it (3 1/2 years) jesus would do away with the need for sacrifice. jesus´ ministry was 3 1/2 years long before he was killed. his death made animal sacrifices at the temple obsolete.

however the covenant was to continue for one full week. meaning the invitation to heaven was given exclusively to the jews for 3 and 1/2 years after jesus´death. because the jews did not fill the 144,000 spaces available, the invitation was opened to the gentiles. in 36 ad (3 1/2 years after the death if jesus) the first gentile was baptized.

this point was illustrated with the parable of the marriage feast

[2] The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
[3] And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

the jews as a whole rejected jesus, to the point of handing him over to the romans. the sad part is, because of their covenant with god they were invited to this heavenly feast. but they refused.

[4] Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
[5] But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
[6] And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

after jesus´ death, the early christians were sent to preach to the jews. instead of the jews accepting the invitation, they persecuted them and killed many. paul (saul) even ordered the death of stephen by stoning.

[7] But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

the jews eventually as a whole were rejected as god´s people. god kept his promises to them and they ignored it. the messiah came and went and the covenant between them and god was fulfilled. eventually jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD

[8] Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
[9] Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
[10] So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

since the 144,000 spots were not filled, the invitation was extended to the gentiles. from 36 AD onward, gentiles were being baptized.

[11] And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
[12] And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

some would claim to be invited, partaking of the communion, but would fail to work in harmony with holy spirit



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
This plainly states there will be some still alive who are changed to immortality, or how else could they be forever with the Lord?


actually it says they would be alive when the lord arrives. after the lord arrive, they would not ¨sleep¨ but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. it doesnt say that they will be changed while still alive.


Exactly, and it when the Lord arrives that they are changed. Do you think Jesus has to kill them, then change them?



the reason i say that is because there is an obvious contrast to those who die and sleep for a period of time and those who die and are changed instantly.


Where is this contrast mentioned?



Christ also hints at this. While talking of the end times, he said that there would be some standing there that would not taste of death.


actually he said ¨Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.¨

immediately after that verse (a few days after) he took peter, james, and john up the mountain for the vision of the transfiguration. he wasnt lying, they did see his coming in his kingdom.


Jesus has not yet come in his kingdom, even the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his kingdom, and Jesus didn't correct him. It is states it a little differently in Mark...

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

The Apostles did not see the Kingdom of God come.

Also, when jesus said "stand here" the word transalted as "here" is hode, which also means "there, the same place", and what was Jesus talking about? The previous verses....

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.



posted on Jan, 7 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

There could be another meaning ....

Read this ....
ze 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.

Eze 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Eze 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
Eze 14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

Eze 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn [yourselves] from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.

Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:

Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Eze 14:10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh [unto him];

Eze 14:11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.


Eze 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

Eze 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 14:15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:

Eze 14:16 [Though] these three men [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

Eze 14:17 Or [if] I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:

Eze 14:18 Though these three men [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

Eze 14:19 Or [if] I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Eze 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, [both] sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, [even] concerning all that I have brought upon it.

Eze 14:23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.


NOTICE THE REMNANT ....they are from the sons and daughters of Noah Daniel and Job ..*they will play a huge role in the end times according to this scripture above .......because we know Noah Daniel and Job are not still physically alive ...and I dont believe scripture says anywhere that they were taken up alive (as was Elijah and Enoch ) ........so it is the spirit of them ..
Names always mean something to GOD and names are symbolic of peoples ..(certain groups of people maybe ) ......

NOah means rest
Noah = "rest"

1) son of Lamech, father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth; builder of the ark which saved his family from the destruction of the world which God sent on the world by the flood; became the new seminal head of mankind because his family were the only survivors of the flood

Daniel means
Daniel = "God is my judge"

1) the 2nd son of David, by Abigail the Carmelitess

2) the 4th of the greater prophets, taken as hostage in the first deportation to Babylon, because of the gift of God of the interpretation of dreams, he became the 2nd in command of the Babylon empire and lasted through the end of the Babylonian empire and into the Persian empire. His prophecies are the key to the understanding of end time events. Noted for his purity and holiness by contemporary prophet, Ezekiel

a) also, 'Belteshazzar' (01095 or 01096)

3) a priest of the line of Ithamar who sealed the covenant with Nehemiah

Job = "hated"

1) a patriarch, the subject of the book of Job


I dont know I just think there is more to this than meets the eye ..and should be studied more indepth ...to determine what it means ...

[edit on 8-1-2009 by Simplynoone]



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 05:24 AM
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Originally posted by doctorex
Exactly, and it when the Lord arrives that they are changed. Do you think Jesus has to kill them, then change them?

let me ask this then, how is that some one can be changed without dying and still say that they partook of the first resurrection?



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 06:00 AM
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reply to post by darkelf
 



Wrong we humans in flesh are bound by just this dimension. This infinite dimension. There is no other dimension in our reality. Until we die and are resurrected.

But in theory there are two other dimensions out side our own. (1)The spiritual dimension and (2) heaven. Death is just nothing inside this infinite dimension.

We live in a third dimension inside a infinite dimension(space). And all object inside this infinite dimension must have a minimum third dimensional shape to exist. A dimension is just a shape of a object. A dimension is Height.Length.Width and Depth. All Matter no mater how small or what shape must have at least a third dimensional shape to exist. Even energy as light or dark matter. We humans are a dimensional shape of a minimum of three dimensions inside a infinite dimension(space)

So if a spirit comes into our infinite dimension(space) it must have a third dimensional shape of some form. Unless it comes into this dimension as a thought or a cause.
All the people mentioned in the text who have seen a angel have seen minimum a third dimensional object. Even thou it might of only been a light. But light has a minimum of a third dimensional shape. A funny thing is that some people wonder how light can talk or communicate with us humans. Well we also use light to day as a way to communicate. So it is not impossible any of this stuff.
Without light we cant even see.

That's why i believe that the Bible is a inspiration given to prophets by God. It came to them as a thought and a vision given to them by God.

I also believe that god could of walked with Adam in the garden of Eden because he came into this dimension as a third dimensional being. Or it wouldent say that God walked with Adam. It would say that God was in Adam while he was walking around.

But if God was always in Adam. Adam wouldn't be fooled by the evil spirit. God gave Adam free will. But Adam didn't know what evil was until he sin.
Neither did Eve.

That's why i also believe that we are not really born as sinner but made into sinners by our own search and eager for knowledge. That's why God called the forbidden tree, The tree of knowledge. That is the curse we have inherited from Adam and Eve. We humans are to day borne innocent into a evil system that hungers for knowledge. In other words hunger for evil. But not everyone sees it like that. I guess thats what God is trying to tell us!! That we are wrong.

Knowledge can make us see and do evil. Knowledge is how we humans see prosper and evolvement into something bigger and better. God sees our prosper as our doom. Because what we see as bigger and better is not what God thinks i best for us. I sure can agree with that. Because we like to own others with our inventions. We make others into slaves by what we create. Because that's what a common person would call a smart man with common sense. But that's not what God thinks.Only the victims can feel what God is saying.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by One4truth
When Adam was created in the garden, the bible says he was created in the image of God. I believe it is safe to assume that God is a spirit. So was Adam originally a spirit?


not necessarily, image means that he had the qualities of god. like freewill, love, his sense of justice.

also consider that the garden was on earth. adam was made from dust. these point to a physical existence not spiritual.


I think Adam died spiritually that day and caused man to be born spiritually dead from then on. So when Jesus died and rose, we were given the chance to once again be spiritually alive. Then when Christ comes back, we which are alive in Him, will dwell with Him in the new earth, void of death and sin.

Also, God told Adam not to eat of that certain tree or in that day he would surely die. Now by our earthly standard of time, Adam did not die that day but lived almost a thousand years. So I know that one day with the lord is as a thousand years, so I know it is not a contradiction. Maybe though he did die that day, spiritually, since anything corruptable cannot be in the presence of a holy and incorruptible God he drove Adam in his newly fallen nature out. Adam could no longer commune with God like he did before


in a way yes. adam as a sinner put himself and his offspring in an alienated position with god.


Also, God will do away with our corrupted flesh, which we received from Adams fall, and we will be raised with a quickened spirit (or made alive spirit which happened when we became born-again).



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


Sorry miriam, part of my last post got put into your quote section. As you can tell, I am new to this posting and quoteing process



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by One4truth
 


I got a few question:

Dose God say that we will inherit free will if we get elected into the new life.

Maybe i should start to read the Bible.

Do i have to read the bible to be saved or could i just listen to my hart and common sense.
I dont read the Bible but i do get a lot of details from post like this. Will that do or do i have to learn all the details like you do.
What i do is that i put things together and use my common sense to put things in perspective. Is that wrong!



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


You have done a lot of good research and I commend your study of the scripture. I had answered each of your points individually but due to my answer’s length, I decided to condense it for readability.


24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


24Seventy weeks are determined (chathak = divided) upon thy people (the Jews) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem). This is seven, 62 and one.

The seventy weeks do six things:

1. It finishes transgressions (pesha = rebellion) hasn’t happened yet. People still rebel against God.
2. makes an end of sin hasn’t happened yet. People still sin against God.

3. makes reconciliation (kaphar = atonement) for iniquity (avon = guilt or depravity) was completed on death and resurrection of Christ.

4. brings in everlasting righteousness (tsedeq = justice or judgement) this could be viewed as salvation or the rule of Christ on earth. Salvation has come, but Jesus has not set His kingdom here yet.

5. seals up (chatham = locks or finishes) the vision and prophecy hasn’t happened yet. There are still unfulfilled prophecies

6. anoints the most Holy hasn’t happened yet. The anointing was done to bring a king into power. Christ is King of kings but His rule on earth has not yet begun.


In my opinion, only one of the six things that Gabriel proclaims is actually complete. The only way that this prophecy can be fulfilled is if all conditions are met. Since this is a prophecy for Israel, it appears to me that God is not finished with them yet.

Calculating the 69 weeks is not simple. First, the Jewish year consist of twelve 30 day months. So one Jewish year is 360 days. A prophetic week is seven Jewish years so 7 x 360 =2520 days. If you multiply the prophetic week by 69 you get 173,880 days (69 x 2520 = 173880.) The problem arrises when you convert these days to our calendar year. The Jews use a lunar year where we use a solar year. A solar year is basically 365.2422 days. If you divide 173880 lunar days by 365.2422 solar days you get 476 years and 24.7 or 25 days. When counting from BC to AD we have to subtract a year as there is no year 0. Subtracting 445 from 476 gives us a remainder of 31 years. This bring us to March of 1AD (there is no year 0.) Add the remaining 31 years and we arrive at March 32 AD. Then add the remaining 25 days which brings us to April and the triumphant entry.


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Since you can’t use a pronoun without an implied noun, in my opinion, ‘he’ can’t be the Messiah. The last personage in verse 26 is “the prince that shall come.” It is his people (the Romans) who destroy the city and the sanctuary. Not only did they destroy the temple in 70 AD, but around 145 AD they destroyed the city and built a Roman city complete with their own temple on top of the city. But let’s break it down:

27And he shall confirm (gabar = make mighty) the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (minchah = offerings) to cease (shabath = finish or rest) and for the overspreading (kanaph= extremity or border) of abominations (shiqquwts = idol) he shall make it desolate (shamen = devastate or appalling), and that determined (charats = decreed or mutilate) shall be poured (nathak = melted and/or poured) upon the desolate (shamen = devastate or appalling).

And he shall make a mighty covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of that week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to be finished, and for the border of the idol he shall make it devastated and that decree shall be poured upon the devastated.

The he who makes the covenant and causes the sacrifice and offerings to be finished places an idol in the temple and desecrates it. So in my opinion the ‘he cannot be Messiah but is the person often referred to as the antichrist. The borders where the idol is placed are the borders of the Holy of Holies where the beast places an image of himself and make everyone worship it. (See Matthew 24: 15 and Revelation 13:14)

It is God’s longsuffering, mercy and grace that give us the gap. Up to the death and resurrection of Jesus, there were only two groups of people; the Jews and Gentiles. After Pentecost the Church was born which is neither Jew nor Gentile. If the 70th week had come immediately after the 69th, the world would have ended seven years after Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem and Jesus would be ruler of all earth. God has given the world 2000 years to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah. He has not ended His covenant with the Jews. The last week is God’s final judgment on Israel, hence the rest of the world.

You make many good points. I hope this helps to explain why I believe that Daniel 9:26 is a time gap between verses 25 and 27.



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by spy66
 


The dimensions I was referring to are the dimensions of height, width, depth and time. Scientists have discovered that there are at least six, if not seven other dimension. Sorry if I confused you. I too believed that God walked with Adam prior to his fall.



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by spy66
 


The dimensions I was referring to are the dimensions of height, width, depth and time. Scientists have discovered that there are at least six, if not seven other dimension. Sorry if I confused you. I too believed that God walked with Adam prior to his fall.


Ok i have never hear of a dimension of another time. But i know Einstein and others have a theory about traveling faster within a finite dimension(space). A dimension of infinite space that is curved by gravity. But it is still within the infinite space it is not out side of it. That is impossible.



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by One4truth
Also, God will do away with our corrupted flesh, which we received from Adams fall, and we will be raised with a quickened spirit (or made alive spirit which happened when we became born-again).


that would depend on which hope you have.



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by spy66
Dose God say that we will inherit free will if we get elected into the new life.


bible doesnt mention freewill directly, it holds you accountable for your actions which suggests freewill, otherwise wouldnt it make god cruel to punish you for things you were ment to do?


Do i have to read the bible to be saved or could i just listen to my hart and common sense.


jesus talked about people worshiping god in spirit and in truth. how do you know that your worship has truth? would you really trust someone else to tell you what to believe?

its not necessarily whether or not you will be ¨saved¨ if you read the bible. its not a to do list for salvation. however i would say its advisable. people have a tendency to lie


What i do is that i put things together and use my common sense to put things in perspective. Is that wrong!


i dont see anything wrong with it. your thinking about it which is good. some people dont do that.



posted on Jan, 8 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
The seventy weeks do six things:

1. It finishes transgressions (pesha = rebellion) hasn’t happened yet. People still rebel against God.

2. makes an end of sin hasn’t happened yet. People still sin against God.

3. makes reconciliation (kaphar = atonement) for iniquity (avon = guilt or depravity) was completed on death and resurrection of Christ.


why would they not be fulfilled? ok there is a literal way of looking at it, but there also is a figurative. the death of jesus loosened sin´s hold. no longer would be remained condemned for their sins, instead they would be sanctified. yes they still sin because they are imperfect, however things would now be able to progress.

it finished transgression by proving that a perfect human can remain faithful unto death without sinning.


4. brings in everlasting righteousness (tsedeq = justice or judgement) this could be viewed as salvation or the rule of Christ on earth. Salvation has come, but Jesus has not set His kingdom here yet.


actually, ive always seen this as referring to god´s justice toward humanity. the ransom is paid and so there would be everlasting justice.


5. seals up (chatham = locks or finishes) the vision and prophecy hasn’t happened yet. There are still unfulfilled prophecies


to seal up THE vision, i dont think that referring to ALL vision. could be just referring to messianic prophecies pointing to jesus.


6. anoints the most Holy hasn’t happened yet. The anointing was done to bring a king into power. Christ is King of kings but His rule on earth has not yet begun.


actually it did. jesus was anointed with holy spirit when he was baptized.


First, the Jewish year consist of twelve 30 day months. So one Jewish year is 360 days. A prophetic week is seven Jewish years so 7 x 360 =2520 days. If you multiply the prophetic week by 69 you get 173,880 days (69 x 2520 = 173880.) The problem arrises when you convert these days to our calendar year. The Jews use a lunar year where we use a solar year. A solar year is basically 365.2422 days. If you divide 173880 lunar days by 365.2422 solar days you get 476 years and 24.7 or 25 days. When counting from BC to AD we have to subtract a year as there is no year 0. Subtracting 445 from 476 gives us a remainder of 31 years. This bring us to March of 1AD (there is no year 0.) Add the remaining 31 years and we arrive at March 32 AD. Then add the remaining 25 days which brings us to April and the triumphant entry.


i see what your saying, but essentially your applying the day for a year rule twice. other examples in the bible dont do that, even the calculating of the gentile times only applies day for a year once even though it spans thousands of years.



27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Since you can’t use a pronoun without an implied noun, in my opinion, ‘he’ can’t be the Messiah.


im sorry, but thats an assumption. the messiah DID in fact cause sacrifice to cease. so there is no real reason to think that ¨he¨is referring to anyone but the messiah


The last personage in verse 26 is “the prince that shall come.” It is his people (the Romans) who destroy the city and the sanctuary. Not only did they destroy the temple in 70 AD, but around 145 AD they destroyed the city and built a Roman city complete with their own temple on top of the city. But let’s break it down:

27And he shall confirm (gabar = make mighty) the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation (minchah = offerings) to cease (shabath = finish or rest) and for the overspreading (kanaph= extremity or border) of abominations (shiqquwts = idol) he shall make it desolate (shamen = devastate or appalling), and that determined (charats = decreed or mutilate) shall be poured (nathak = melted and/or poured) upon the desolate (shamen = devastate or appalling).

And he shall make a mighty covenant with many for one week: and in the middle of that week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to be finished, and for the border of the idol he shall make it devastated and that decree shall be poured upon the devastated.

The he who makes the covenant and causes the sacrifice and offerings to be finished places an idol in the temple and desecrates it.


wait, what?

first, nothing says he makes the covenant. it says he confirms it. meaning its already there. you can also use ¨reaffirm¨ or ¨to keep¨. jesus did do that. his ministry and the subsequent disciples preached ONLY to the jews for a certain period of time. also, the article ¨the¨ before covenant suggests that daniel would immediately know which covenant gabriel was talking about. if you said the covenant to daniel, of course he would understand you as talking about god´s covenant with the Israelites, not some unknown covenant in the future.

second, the b part of 27 can just a simply apply to romans who destroyed jerusalem. ¨and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

this could be a direct reference to the romans destorying the temple.


You make many good points. I hope this helps to explain why I believe that Daniel 9:26 is a time gap between verses 25 and 27.


i understand now, but forgive please for me not agreeing. the fulfillment of this passage doesnt require further fulfillment. the timing of the weeks i believe is very specific.



posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by One4truth
 


I got a few question:

"Dose God say that we will inherit free will if we get elected into the new life."


Man has always had freewill regardless of new life
Maybe i should start to read the Bible.

"Do i have to read the bible to be saved or could i just listen to my hart and common sense.
I dont read the Bible but i do get a lot of details from post like this. Will that do or do i have to learn all the details like you do.
What i do is that i put things together and use my common sense to put things in perspective. Is that wrong!"


Reading the bible does not guarentee salvation, but I would advise reading it so you can see for yourself the truths it contains. Some people can take scripture and pull it from context to prove their point, distorting for their own selfishness. Example... Scripture says that Judas hung himself, somewhere else in an unrelated topic it says "go and do thou likewise". Without knowing scripture for yourself you would have to trust the person telling you what it says. Common sense helps but knowledge of the scripture helps to weed out the rest. Hope that helps.




posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by spy66
 


Also read romans10:1-17. That's how I learned what is meant by getting saved.God bless



posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by Dock6
 


Dock6:

Do you not think that maybe God is allowing NDE to happen so we can come back and tell what we saw and were told? Maybe this is his way of showing us little pictures of what is beyond so we can share it with others.

I also think he allows our loved ones to come back to us sometimes to say goodbye or to let us know they are alright. He lets us see behind the veil.

I saw many wonderful things in my NDE and was told many things. It was truly a religious experience to say the least. It was very beautiful and also confusing, but I will always be humbled by it.


Peace,
Grandma



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by darkelf
 


I would wish for you to keep on topic with this thread. It's about heaven and hell and I have yet to see a response of this subject from you. I disagree with you on the rapture.... because the famous rapture verse happens at the "last trumpet" which would lead me to believe it's after the tribulation. I also disagree with your "triune or trinity" which has been false doctrine since the catholics instituted it into christianity. That's all I'll say about that and I wish you would keep on subject with the theme of this thread. God bless you.



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