Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

reply to post by Locoman8

What's our business in heaven?

I think she was talking abut the 144,000.
There are some problems involved in deciphering all the different resurrections and judgments and trips to heaven described in the Bible, but any way you look at it, someone does go and specifically the 144,000 are included, at the very least.


[edit on 11-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Locoman8


hello

for me

those that die are in their graves until the resurrection

after jusdgment you die in Hell (not eternity in IMHO) or you live with God

the bible is quite open in my mind what we will be doing when we are living with God

david

Follow the bible?

Are you SURE it’s a good idea? Really sure?

Let’s find out! And remember, if you follow the bible you can’t pick and choose which parts to believe/follow or not believe/follow. I mean it IS the word of “God” right?


Here’s just a few beauties:


We may own slaves (Leviticus 25:44-46)

Excecute people that work on Sundays (Exodus 35:2)

Disobediant children should be put to death (Leviticus 20:9)

Stone to death women who are not virgins when they marry (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Women should remain silent in church (1 Corintians 14:34)

Women should not have authority over man (1 Timothy 2:12)

Wives should submit to their husbands in everything (Ephesians 5:22-24)

We should cut off the hand of a woman if she grabs the testicles of a man who is attacking her husband (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS

Follow the bible?

Are you SURE it’s a good idea? Really sure?

Let’s find out! And remember, if you follow the bible you can’t pick and choose which parts to believe/follow or not believe/follow. I mean it IS the word of “God” right?


Here’s just a few beauties:


We may own slaves (Leviticus 25:44-46)

Excecute people that work on Sundays (Exodus 35:2)

Disobediant children should be put to death (Leviticus 20:9)

Stone to death women who are not virgins when they marry (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Women should remain silent in church (1 Corintians 14:34)

Women should not have authority over man (1 Timothy 2:12)

Wives should submit to their husbands in everything (Ephesians 5:22-24)

We should cut off the hand of a woman if she grabs the testicles of a man who is attacking her husband (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

First off, many of these ordinances of the old testament were meant for ancient Israel due to the fact God was working directly with them to be a model nation for peace. If one of these by-laws were broken, a punishment or judgement had to me made as an example that what God says goes. Slave owning was a common thing in their time and was not required by God. In Judaism and christianity, the woman came after the man and was put on earth to serve man. It was like this up until the 20th century "women's rights movement". Your blunt and dry views reflect the modern world vs the ancient world. Also, slaves were set free every Jubilee year in ancient Israel. Also sunday workers were alright due to the fact that the holy sabbath was on saturday, not sunday.

To those of you mocking my views, they were the beliefs of early christians. Even the Encycolapedia Brittanica confirms this with their article on Christianity. The 144,000 are not in heaven yet. They are the chosen "elect" during the time of tribulation who are protected for a time, times, and half a time or better known as 3 1/2 years. They are sealed and after they are sealed a great multitude convert.... these are the martyred saints of tribulation. Some will be safe from persecution, some will be persecuted by the beast. Read revelation. Lazarus and the rich man was a parable Jesus said to the scribes and phareeses to explain the consequences of their actions. Nowhere in the bible does it say man will or has entered heaven aside from Jesus. Nowhere does it say that unrepentent sinners have or are being thrown into hellfire. Hellfire is punishment after judgement which begins after the 1000 year peace on earth. The hellfire or "lake of fire" is known in revelation as the "second death." It's not eternal punishment in fire, but a final, eternal death sentence. Repeatedly through the bible it is mentioned that the unrepented sinners would perish, be abolished, surely die, destroyed, be ashes under our feet, and cease to exist. Jesus even said in Matthew 10 to not be afraid of those who can destroy the body but not the soul, but to fear Him who can destroy body and soul in hell. This tells us that the body and soul can be destroyed proving that body and soul are one. Soul simply means "life". The words soul and life are interchangable in the bible in their greek and hebrew meanings. I'll leave it at that for now and ready myself for more criticism.

reply to post by Dock6


A lil offtopic on this part, but my wife had an NDE, herself, and has a really interesting experience with it.


To the topic:

According to the beliefs the jews held, til the new testament era, upon death, the person "falls asleep", and is in Sheol, the grave, hades. There's no living there, no awareness, all is black and done, no passage of time exists, all is gone.

To them, anything that will happen, will happen during THIS LIFE. If God is to punish you for a sin, you will be punished while you live, and that is all. If your punishment for your sin is death, then you are killed, and that is it. God's done with you. There's no eternal hellfire or punishment. You are erased.

As ecclesiastes has to say, all is vanity, all is nothing.

That was what they held to be true until the time of Alexander the great came and the jews were hellenized. it was at that point that we see the conception of eternity, eternal hell, eternal heaven and eternal soul come into play. That was then transferred into the Christian mythos, and you see the result today.

reply to post by Jomina


That's interesting because part of my research on the words "heaven" and "hell" speak of the greek influences, especially from Aristotle and Plato who created the idea of an eternal spirit separate from the body... a non-biblical belief.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Jomina

 

That's interesting because part of my research on the words "heaven" and "hell" speak of the greek influences, especially from Aristotle and Plato who created the idea of an eternal spirit separate from the body... a non-biblical belief.

Thats basically what I have run across as well. It was very prevalent in those days after Alexander came into the land, and drove out the persians. His whole reason for going to the lengths he did to conquer the world was to ensure the spread of his hellenistic views. He was absolutely dedicated to them.

Once the area was conquered, it didn't take long at all (100 years or so) for the views expressed by the greeks to be integrated into the belief systems of the jews. From the research I have done, it would totally account for the "seed bed" of Christianity. A great amount of ideas that were spread in the area at the time were later incorporated into christianity.

What that means for anything, you can work out from there. I think it's significant, though, and it's historical evidence that should be looked at. At the very least the historical context is crucial for understanding WHY the beliefs arose as they did.


the persians left the jews alone for the most part, and allowed them to foment their own belief systems as they saw fit, without much interference. That was fine for the jews, they were allowed to study and worship at the temples, as well as sacrifices. But once Alexander drove the persians out, things changed radically.

He did a lot of destruction to the belief systems that were held dear by the jews, and it was not long before the temples were quite abandoned.

By the time of Christ, there were many different sects within judaism, and each had its own way of doing things. Two of those sexcts were the Pharasies and the sadducees (ugh i know my spelling is off, but im tired lol)

In fact the research into that time shows that for the most part, judaism had been abandoned by the people. I read a study which showed that there were only approximately 10% of the people in the land who were actively participating in worship services, sacrifices, etc. The rest had become very secular and disillusioned by all of the in-fighting of the different sects.

So when Jesus came onto the scene, he was dealing with a people who were primarily secular, turned off completely by anything having to do with religion, and wanted no part of it. His main stand against the phar and sad's was that they had made many laws and incorporated them into the religion, oppressing the people in a big way. Hence his accusations of being hypocrites, often stated, as well as some of his statements like, "You make laws for the people but cannot follow them yourselves! Hypocrites!" (paraphrasing there)


Once the hellenistic viewpoints had begun to creep into judaism, the priests made claims that they were the direct mouthpieces of God, and could enact new rules and laws that had to be followed, just as the levitical laws, etc had to be followed. And they made a LOT of them.

That was the main argument that Christ had against them.

Anyhow, so until the time of alexander, the jews didnt have a conception of eternity, and it was once that area had become conquered, you can see those beliefs beginning to creep in. once the time of Christ had come, it's pretty easy to see why certain things were incorporated into the belief system that we see today.


This does not state whether or not christ actually lived or not, but a discussion of the results of the belief system involved, and its origin. The fact or myth of whether he actually lived or not doesnt enter into that portion of things, and is better left for another topic

reply to post by Locoman8


Greetings Locoman et al,

While I found your post interesting I feel I must clarify a couple of points you made. First of all, your equating the Hebrew term "Nefesh" with soul is not entirely accurate, the Hebrew term for soul more properly is "Neshama," the term "Nefesh" refers to the "breath of life," it is the active force which animates things, and according to many Rabbis I have studied with it is the very same as what the Chinese refer to as Chi. Nefesh is the life-force energy which constantly emanates from the Creator. That is merely a point of clarification.

Also, I must take issue with the verse John 3:13 in the Greek "New Testament," I am not disputing that this is what the text says, but I am saying that this is inconsistent with the Torah (your "Old Testament"). In fact Eliyahu HaNavi (Elijah the Prophet) ascended into Heaven according to the Judaic tradition. Also, (I believe according to the Mishneh, but I can look that up if a source is required), Enosh Ben Yared (Enoch, of the book of Enoch fame) was also said to have ascended to Heaven according to the Judaic tradition and became an angel, the one referred to as the "Angel of the Lord" known by a couple of different names, one of which is "Meta-tron" (which is a greek name, so it is considered a description and not a proper name).

I understand that as a christian you mix sources from the Hebrew Torah and Greek Bible (N.T.) which is perhaps a source of confusion for you, there is much contradiction between the two texts because they reflect radically different theological perspectives. I cannot speak for the Christian tradition (particularly since there are so many doctrinal variations on it's tenants), but I can speak to Judaic theological concepts with some degree of authority.

On a final note, which I think has some correlation to what I believe your original point was, the original Jewish concept of "Hell," or "Gehenom" is not a permanent destination. It is a place that certain souls are sent to for repair/rectification/purification inbetween incarnations (yes Jews and even the original Christians believed in reincarnation, albeit a slightly different model than say the Hindus believe). This is an unpleasant process, from how it has been described, but a soul is sent there for no longer than 12 months at a time. It is not a literal lake of fire, the metaphorical description I have been given is that it is a process similar in some manner to a sword being tempered in a fire to draw out the impurities. This is metaphorical, since souls have no physical substance that could be "burned" anyway. Indeed according to Judaism, the ultimate destiny of wicked souls beyond repair is non-existence. Those souls literally get destroyed, not tortured for all of eternity.

Also in the same way, the reward for the righteous is referred to by the Hebrew term "Olam Haba" which means "the World to Come." The Hebrew term for Heaven is "Shemayim" and is not refered to in the Torah as the reward for the righteous. I don't want to get heavy into this because it's a rather complex matter, but I'll let that suffice for now.

I hope this little bit of info is helpful. I can go into further detail and also dig up appropriate sources if anyone is interested.

Peace,
Hexagram23

You are correct that Hell is wrongly depicted as a place of eternal fire. The term used in the New Testament is Hades, and this merely refers to the underworld, which exists on the astral plane. This is referred to as the "Intermediate State" in both Tibetan Buddhism and the Gospel of Philip.

Above this are the seven astral heavens, ruled by the Princes, Powers and Principalities of St. Paul and Daniel (Paul was only taken as far as the Third Heaven, which is where Paradise is).

The Gnostics expanded this by adding that beyond these heavens is the realm of the fixed stars, and beyond that the true realm of God, the Pleroma. The Soul is composed of astral substance--passion--and must be annihilated to release the Spirit, which flies to the realm of the fixed stars beyond the solar system, and reunites with God.

So yes, the topography of Heaven and Hell are quite complex.

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Eleleth]

reply to post by hexagram23


You need to read correctly. Elijah did not go to heaven. He accended into the HEAVENS... plural. A whirlwind carried him in the sky. Though you look to be Jewish, the new testament states the 3 heavens. The first heaven of our atmosphere.... explains the birds of heaven. The 2nd heaven is the cosmos... explains the creation of the heavens and earth. The 3rd heaven refers to God's place of existence. The book of Hebrews states the 3 heavens. Also, Elijah was later found in the OT after his joyride on the whirlwind showing that he was still on earth.

As far as your viewpoint on reincarnation... your view is flawed. The Hebrew notion of life after death in paradise was a prophecy of the future resurrections mentioned in revelation. The only word in the Old Testament that even translates to "Hell" is the word "Sheol" which means death or grave. Gehenna is a greek word translated to Hebrew as "ge-Hinnom" or "Valley of Hinnom" which was a place south of Jerusalem which was once a place of pagan worship. It was later turned into a garbage dump for Jerusalem due to it's pagan reputation. There trash, animal carcasses and prisoner corpses were thrown and burned. This fire burned day and night so it was only natural that Jesus would use this word to describe the fate of the unrepentant sinners..... a second death in a lake of fire.

Let me add that your viewpoint is interesting and this was not intended to criticize you but to explain certain situations in the bible. More later.

reply to post by Locoman8

You need to read correctly. Elijah did not go to heaven. He accended into the HEAVENS... plural. A whirlwind carried him in the sky.

You sound a little silly trying to make a point that the English version of the word is plural. If you had researched the word in its original languate and described its meaning then you may have some clout.

And:
2 Kings 2:11 (New International Version)

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.

King James

11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Doesn't look plural to me even in English.



[edit on 8-12-2008 by jjkenobi]

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566

 

You mention that maybe later people will go to heaven but I throw this idea at you.... if people accend up to heaven then why does a resurrection take place? The whole point of God's plan is to make peace on earth and make Christ king over the earth. What's our business in heaven? The bible doesn't say we go to heaven. It mentions the "kingdom of heaven" in matthew but that refers to the kingdom on earth ruled by Christ which came from heaven. Other gospels mention it as the "Kingdom of God". As for the second death, it happens after the 2nd resurrection which happens after the 1000 year peace. All remain in the grave until their appointed resurrection weather it be the 1st or 2nd. Just read Revelation 19-21... specifically chapter 20.

Very good questions! Did you happen to read Revelation 21: 1-4
From John's Vision
Making Everything New: The New Jerusalem

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2-I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out if heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying "Now the dwelling of God is with men and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

The earth as we know it will not last forever, but after God's great judgment
he will create a new earth. and a new heaven.

NIV

[edit on 8-12-2008 by paxnatus]

Originally posted by Locoman8You mention that maybe later people will go to heaven but I throw this idea at you.... if people accend up to heaven then why does a resurrection take place? The whole point of God's plan is to make peace on earth and make Christ king over the earth. What's our business in heaven? The bible doesn't say we go to heaven. It mentions the "kingdom of heaven" in matthew but that refers to the kingdom on earth ruled by Christ which came from heaven. Other gospels mention it as the "Kingdom of God". As for the second death, it happens after the 2nd resurrection which happens after the 1000 year peace. All remain in the grave until their appointed resurrection weather it be the 1st or 2nd. Just read Revelation 19-21... specifically chapter 20.

sorry i dont think i saw you reply

i replied recently and more indepth here

www.belowtopsecret.com...

reply to post by miriam0566


The 144,000 aren't in heaven. The bible never states that. And don't ignore the fact that the 2nd resurrection is mentioned to happen AFTER the 1000 years are up. After all, satan decieves the world again and brings many to their death due to war. Even satan's release is mentioned AFTER the 1000 years are up. The 144,000 are the elect chosen to rule with Christ at his return.... but that's why there is a 1st resurrection.... for the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those who remain shall be caught up in the air and forever be with the Lord. That is a paraphrase of what Paul said to the Thessalonians and Corinthians. This did not state a rapture but a resurrection of the dead and the being caught up by those still alive in Christ. 144,000=not in heaven but awaiting resurrection as Christ returns on a cloud. More on this later.

reply to post by Locoman8


Hey Locoman, you can believe whatever you want of course, but you seem to be falling prey to the same flawed process that most sectarian thinking eventually comes to: "our interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong." This is true of all religions and persuasions, and of course christianity does not hold the copyright in this regard.

And for the record I am not Jewish, not that it should matter but since you made the assumption I was, I will state that having been raised a Pentecostal and finding evangelical fundamentalist christianity to, allow me to put it politely, suck eggs, I began studying comparative religion to get some perspective on man's relationship to religion and spirituality. I went to the source of the Bible, which is the Torah, (or more properly the Tanakh, what you called the O.T.). I found that the Hebrew Bible and the Greek Bible are so incongruent, they don't belong in the same binding. You of course are welcomed to believe whatever you want of course, but you sound ridiculous making statements that you have no knowledge of. I'd sit here and argue with you, except I really don't care what you believe. I certainly don't wish you ill, but I have no desire to convince others that my perspective is the right one, my theology is not so needy that I must have validation from others.

Here is something to consider, the New Testament *cannot* be right if the Old Testament is wrong. It is, however, possible for the Old Testament to be right, and the New Testament to be wrong. I'm sure you don't even read a word of Hebrew, so why would I take your opinion to have any scholarly merit?

Alright, I'm out.
Hex23

In reading this thread I am happy that some christians have finally figured out what the bible teaches about the soul, that it actually does die. And is dependent on God to be revived and created again. Either in flesh or in spirit.

As for the 144,000 they will all be in heaven one day, they aren't all there yet. But be assured that the first century Apostles like John, Peter, Paul and actually all the bible writers of the from Matthew on are in heaven with Christ right now.

Most people that have lived and died (good & bad)are coming back the earth at God's appointed time.

John 5: 28 &29

"Don't act so surprised at all this. The time is coming when everyone dead and buried will hear his voice. Those who have lived the right way will walk out into a resurrection Life; those who have lived the wrong way, into a resurrection Judgment."

That judgment is not as harsh as many think, it means they are judged on what they actually do from that point on.

Romans 6:7 In multiple bibles
1)"because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."
2)"For when a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men]"
3)"For he that has died is justified from sin"
4)"For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin"

So death is the ultimate price for sin, and it wipes out almost all sin that person did in his entire life.

99% of mankind that has lived and died falls into this group.

And if you want exceptions that make up the 1%
Adam & Eve and Judas are some, but we leave the rest to God to decide.
Oh and some first century Jewish leaders that had his Son murdered, he can't forgive them for that. But those Roman soldiers will be back, even Jesus implored his father to forgive them, "for they do not now what they do" and they were most likely pagan anyway.




[edit on 8-12-2008 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Romans 6:7 In multiple bibles
1)"because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."
2)"For when a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men]"
3)"For he that has died is justified from sin"
4)"For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin"

So death is the ultimate price for sin, and it wipes out almost all sin that person did in his entire life.

i have a question...

i get the impression that when the 144,000 are resurrected they are resurrected perfect, incorruptible, immortal.

the impression i get from rev 20 is that the dead resurrected on earth are not. they are resurrected the way they were and raised to perfection.

do you happen to have any thoughts on why that is?

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
In reading this thread I am happy that some christians have finally figured out what the bible teaches about the soul, that it actually does die. And is dependent on God to be revived and created again. Either in flesh or in spirit.

As for the 144,000 they will all be in heaven one day, they aren't all there yet. But be assured that the first century Apostles like John, Peter, Paul and actually all the bible writers of the from Matthew on are in heaven with Christ right now.

Most people that have lived and died (good & bad)are coming back the earth at God's appointed time.

John 5: 28 &29

"Don't act so surprised at all this. The time is coming when everyone dead and buried will hear his voice. Those who have lived the right way will walk out into a resurrection Life; those who have lived the wrong way, into a resurrection Judgment."

That judgment is not as harsh as many think, it means they are judged on what they actually do from that point on.

Romans 6:7 In multiple bibles
1)"because anyone who has died has been freed from sin."
2)"For when a man dies, he is freed (loosed, delivered) from [the power of] sin [among men]"
3)"For he that has died is justified from sin"
4)"For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin"

So death is the ultimate price for sin, and it wipes out almost all sin that person did in his entire life.

99% of mankind that has lived and died falls into this group.

And if you want exceptions that make up the 1%
Adam & Eve and Judas are some, but we leave the rest to God to decide.
Oh and some first century Jewish leaders that had his Son murdered, he can't forgive them for that. But those Roman soldiers will be back, even Jesus implored his father to forgive them, "for they do not now what they do" and they were most likely pagan anyway.




[edit on 8-12-2008 by Blue_Jay33]

To quote you
"So death is the ultimate price for sin, and it wipes out almost all sin that person did in his entire life."

"99% of mankind that has lived and died falls into this group."

You do realize Paul is speaking of a spiritual death, not a physical one.

Romans 6:3-8
Or don't you know all of us who baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4. We were therefore buried with him into death in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
6. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin,
7. because anyone who has died has been freed from sin .
8. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.


The power and penalty of sin died with Christ on the cross. Our "old self ", our sinful nature, died once and for all, so we are freed from it's power. The " body of sin ", is not the human body, but our rebellious sin-loving
nature inherited from Adam.

reply to post by Locoman8
What brought out the fact that that hell was not as we are taught today is in the book of Job, its namesake cried out to G-d begging to just be allowed to go to hell until the day of judgement. This threw me into a whirlwind of curiosity that led me to find that hell in hebrew simply translated into something along the lines of "returning to the dust of the earth," aka "death." (Has been awhile since I researched this and so I am not sure of the exact translation)

After all, we are told all throughout the Old Testament (the text we SHOULD be filtering the New Testament thorugh to see the TRUTH), the wages of sin is death... not brimstone and fire.

Also, it is clear that G-d said in the Old Testament that the earth would be restored to peace and not that we would be exported to another place in order to achieve peace. Earth was created as our place of residence and this does not change according to the only true G-d.

Having said that, me thinks the "angel of light" doeth well in his deceitful mission using the Word of G-d via his perversions. NEW age.... NEW testament...a man christ in whom time and the most important text of ALL time is split... awfully suspicious to me considering that there is one (satan aka ego) who loves to pervert the Truth to mock G-d. tsk tsk. It is a shame and a mark on us.




[edit on 8-12-2008 by justamomma]