Going veggie shrinks the brain

Originally posted by caitlinfae
Actually, here's a link to a study which says the complete opposite, with findings collated over 20 years with 8000 test subjects. There is a significant points difference in intelligence with vegetarians having higher IQ scores by 5 points. It also suggests that more intelligent children are more likely to become vegetarian later in life.

First, did the studies in the OP and the links rule-out the possibility that people with higher I.Q.'s simply tend to consider these matters with more gravity?

Secondly, I disagree that what you pointed to contradicts the results. From the first link:

www.thisislondon.co.uk...

There was no difference in IQ between strict vegetarians and those who classed themselves as veggie but still ate fish or chicken.

However, vegans - vegetarians who also avoid dairy products - scored significantly lower, averaging an IQ score of 95 at the age of 10.

reply to post by lee anoma


It may shrink the brain but it makes the arms longer, increasing the ability to hug trees. LOL! I couldn't resist. I myself stopped eating any beef at all this past year, I pretty much only eat local raised catfish now if I want a meal with meat. So if you cut out other meat and your brain shrinks, then you eat fish with omega 3 which helps brain function, do you get a small but very efficient brain?

In an age where about 90% of the meat and milk you can consume is pumped full of steroids and growth hormones I think your better off with a shrinking brain than cancer. Understand that years of eating horrible fast foods collect in your body and create waste that provides a habitat for molding and parasites to thrive. I would suggest to some of you to consider the much more healthier and natural lifestyle along with


1.Parasite cleansing
2.followed right by colon cleansing
3. liver flushing

rid yourself of these man made poisons that have slowly deteriorated our health.

Look all im going to say is that humans ARE omnivors. We can eat meat. We have a few canine teeth that say hey we are omnivors. There however are probably more fruit and veg and grain eating teeth and more aspects of our biology say veg, and greens, and non-meat products would be better for us. However we still are omnivors and meat eating is in our nature. We evolved to be omnivors. To suddenly change it from eating meat and veg to just eating veg, i'm sure, could carry some negative consequences.

It's like from a book i read. Some prisoners were given some brutal hard work to do everyday. Back breaking work. Heavy lifting, strength training stuff, building muscle work, etc. They were feed very very well, lots of meats, lots of vegetable, but lots of meats, not toomuch n the carbs, and fed very well.
After a few months of this, they were carried out to see to a distant land. Still being fed well, and still doing some hard work. However on reaching this distant land, they were made to eat fruits, dried fruit, nets, and more fruits and light things. After a few weeks of this they had never felt so strong, light moving and fast.

[edit on 15-9-2008 by DaRAGE]

reply to post by space cadet


Kind of like a compact car huh?
Heh...I like the sound of that.

- Lee

Originally posted by grimreaper797
If you are a meat eater, you must be able to hunt. Therefore you need to be smarter than your prey.

And if you're a veggie eater, you're in the Wild, picking your food, allthewhile dodging the same sabre tooths the meat-eaters are

Huh, I heard this is going to make Asda over here in Britain reduce it's vegetarian section and try to encourage people to eat meat. Why not just try and eductae the masses that there are vitamin supplements and most vegans/vegetarians who lack it will take them? Bah, seems like just an excuse to try and sell more meat products to me.

By the way I'm a vegetarian and as many people have pointed out there are other ways of obtaining B12 other than eating meat. But then I'm what's called an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eat milk and eggs and milk and egg products, which means I do get my dose of vitamin B12, despite the study lumping vegans and vegetarians together for some bizarre reason, according to the news source.

I asked my local pharmacist about B12 after I 'learned' that we vegetarians were lacking, including a horror story from someone who said their friend was vegetarian for 8 years and then their body suddenly 'stopped working' because it was 'lacking everything from meat' so I started taking supplements, but then I heard other conflicting stories and opinions. But when I asked just what was missing they had no clue, 'it was lacking meat' was all the answer I got. But anyway, after hearing that I ate eggs and milk the pharmacist told me I should stop taking B12 supplements because I would have ended up with too much of it in my system.

From Wikipedia

Dermatologic: Itching, rash, transitory exanthema, and urticaria have been reported. Vitamin B-12 (20 micrograms/day) and pyridoxine (80mg/day) has been associated with cases of rosacea fulminans, characterized by intense erythema with nodules, papules, and pustules. Symptoms may persist for up to 4 months after the supplement is stopped, and may require treatment with systemic corticosteroids and topical therapy

I think what this study really needs is for the reporters and/or scientists responsible to figure out just who was vegan, who was vegetarian and what type of vegetarian they were before they start lumping us all together like that.

If it was a study on red meat then I could forgive them doing that, but it's not so I can't

EDIT:

Vegans and vegetarians — such as Heather Mills, Russell Brand and Big Brother's Chanelle Houghton — are the most likely to be deficient because the best sources of the vitamin are meat, particularly liver, milk and fish

... Since when was milk considered a meat anyway?



[edit on 15-9-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

[edit on 15-9-2008 by ShiningSabrewolf]

This has nothing to do with vegetarians or vegans. It's just a matter of getting your required b12.

Drink a Red Bull. It has all the b12 you need. Issue solved.

For the sake of a more interesting post, I was doing some reading and found that vitamin B12 is a bacteria, and it is produced by microorganisms. b12 is not naturally a product of meat, veggies or fruits. They only contain b12 by picking up these b12-producing microogranisms.

I was reading that the body hosts the micro-organisms that produce b-12, and the body is able to reabsorb about 70%+ of b12. This means people can go many years with minute b12 intake, and not actually develop a b12 deficiency.

FYI, smokers have more problems with b12 then do veggie-eaters As smoking destroys b12. I enjoy both of these myself, hence the reason my brain is as small as a soy bean.

.02: Don't over complicate the issue. A multi-vit pill will work.

Here is a quote I got from a website discussing the same topic, that I thought was pretty funny:

Avoid B12 Deficiency; Get Heart Disease and Cancer

And for info better then this post:

Vegans and the Vitamin B12 Deficiency Myth

[edit on 15-9-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by ShiningSabrewolf
But then I'm what's called an ovo-lacto vegetarian and eat milk and eggs and milk and egg products, which means I do get my dose of vitamin B12, despite the study lumping vegans and vegetarians together for some bizarre reason,

They all belong to "vegetarianism" in its oirigianl conception. Technically speaking a vegan is a vegetarian. There are different types, it's a scale:

Flexible --------------------------- Strict

Lacto-Ovo __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vegan

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
This has nothing to do with vegetarians or vegans. It's just a matter of getting your required b12.

That was the main point of my rant XD, I guess I was just annoyed that the papers and *ahem* certain people seem to be taking this as a sign that 'all us veggies must eat meat now'. At least that's the impression I get from reading the OPs article.

Originally posted by Wallachian
Well even if that would be true (not really sure if it is or not), it doesn't play any role nowadays. You don't hunt your food, do you? And i'm pretty sure buying meat in the supermarket doesn't require more intelligence than buying vegetables. So no matter what role hunting played in developing intelligence in humans, that is long gone.

*Waves* I still hunt my food, in fact it's rare i eat meat i havn't actually killed. The only thing i buy is chicken and some fish. I also used to fish each year and catch my own down at the coast. So quite simply yes, some people still catch their own food. I mean i don't need to, but i do, because i think it's correct to understand where you got your food. The hypocritical meat eaters bug me a great deal, people who probably couldn't bring themselves to actually shoot an animal.

Originally posted by Wallachian
Besides, no matter how you look at it, gorillas (herbivores, don't get fooled by the fangs) are still smarter than crocodiles or leopards (the only predators that gorillas have besides humans). That proves at least that not all herbivores are stupid and that they can even outsmart their predators.

Gorillas have the ability to process vegetables that we don't. That appendix of yours, well ours is shrunk for a very good reason. That is why comparing a herbivorous animal to a modern human is a seriously flawed arguement. Humans have a great deal of trouble with processing the second cell wall of plants.

Originally posted by Wallachian
Edit to add: i think intelligence has more to do with social behaviour. Both herbivores and carnivores can develop social behaviour.

I think intelligence is poorly defined. You have social intelligence, you have mathmatical intelligence, you have artistic intelligence. Basically your arguement of social intelligence is no better than the meat eater using a logical arguement.

Quite simply lots of the vegans here are reacting out of emotion and without thinking it through. This study was taking about long term damage, not short term intelligence. It's like we know that people who smoke are more likely to develop altzeimers. It's going to take years to see what happens and that's why the group they used were older.

I used to be vegan and it never did me wrong but I will at least admit that I was light-headed a lot. I don't believe it really matters THAT much of what you eat, just so long as you monitor what it is you intake.

Originally posted by MR_UNSMiLey
I don't believe it really matters THAT much of what you eat, just so long as you monitor what it is you intake.

So then it does matter, if you have to monitor what you intake. No?

Unfortunately it's not as simple as getting your daily nutritional requirements.

Because of the massive industrial commericalization of the food industry, everyone should monitor and regulate everything they eat. Cuz a lot of it ain't no good.

Originally posted by ShiningSabrewolf

That was the main point of my rant XD,

Aye I hadn't read your post when I posted mine. I had the window in edit mode for quite a while.

I guess I was just annoyed that the papers and *ahem* certain people seem to be taking this as a sign that 'all us veggies must eat meat now'. At least that's the impression I get from reading the OPs article.

I would agree. Perhaps not the intent of the researchers themselves? But certainely the one who titled the article itself...

b12 deficiency linked to brain shrinkage. That would have been un-biased.

[edit on 15-9-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I starred your post, even though we clearly don't agree on some things

Well good for you that you hunt your own food (same for the other user who said he hunts his own food). It's the only way i can agree both with eating meat and with hunting. But when you consider that the vast (very vast) majority of meat eaters do not hunt their own food, i think we can safely conclude that hunting did stop playing a role in the evolution of us humans, and in the development of our intelligence. That was the point i was trying to make.

Oh and one more thing, i didn't compare modern humans to gorillas actually. I was answering to someone who said that predators are more intelligent than their prey and i gave an example that proves otherwise. It has nothing to do with how humans are simillar to gorillas or if i see humans as naturally omnivor or herbivor. Going vegan or vegetarian is a decision one usually makes based on ethics, not arguments about how humans were not made to eat meat. Those come later in a vegetarian's life.

Well i'm glad even some (if not most) of the meat eaters here see how this study does not mean that being a vegan/vegetarian will necessarily shrink your brain. Basically the title is misleading, but that's just the media's way of showing things. Too bad there are people out there who only hear what they wanna hear, and that is "vegetarians are dumb and have small brains". Sad.

Don't worry, the way food prices are rising no one in the wage class will be able to afford meat, quality produce or any added nutrients, thus insuring most will stay in the labor class with increasing mortality rates.



The amazing thing is how the bourgeoisie get converts in the age of information by promoting a diet they know will make them dumb as 3rd worlders and more prone to deadly toxins from cheap processed Asian products, or make them collapse in debt by telling them they need buy vitamins, supplements, protein powders, elixirs and other assorted lab created crap to make up for the loss of meat's neural proteins.


Dumbing Down a Generation

So what is this defining trait that our generation can proudly claim as our very own? According to Mark Bauerlein, a professor of English at Emory University, we are America’s dumbest generation.

Children 'harmed' by vegan diets BBC

Just keep in mind it is in the best interest of the ruling class that most people eat grains like herd animals, live in fear of predators, embrace victimhood and stay dumb. This will insure a ample supply of laborers and soldiers.

I suggest you all go to a country club and see what the community leaders eat...it's not tofu. Then check out what the diet is of most 3rd world countries. Those the promote veganism are trying to pull down others to the lowest common denominator or have an alterior motive.



[edit on 15-9-2008 by Regenmacher]

I don't understand the constant slander coming from the meat camp to put us down and make us seem as we're lesser human beings. I've taken so much # from people about my choice to not eat meat, and I 'til this day could never quite understand where all those harsh feelings and opinions originated from. I'm a purist in all forms of life. When I undertake anything in life, it is to the fullest, without pulling any punches (sometimes literally.). When I play soccer, I go hard, until my body will not permit me. When I spar, I fight to the bone. When I take a job, I take it seriously and excel. When I had taken on veganism, I accepted it with nothing but the utmost respect and willingness to take it seriously.

I know this seems like a split issue, as if we're in opposing camps that have to constantly prove one another wrong all the time in the never ending cycle of armchair science, but as far as my life is concerned, veganism is a balancing , driving, and important aspect of my life. I feel very strongly about not taking part in the abuse and slaughter of animals for my own personal gain. Some people don't share the same sentiments, and I completely understand that. As humans have been eating whatever their grubby little hands could get on.

I share a lot of my own opinions when it comes to veganism, and only I can really embrace those things I feel. I can share them with people, but force and slander are not tactics that I don't practice anymore. This isn't a war, a battle, or a struggle. This is just people being people, and we're all looking for our own truths.

I've read "scientific" studies on both ends of the spectrum, and as much "thought" and "theory" goes into it, all I can do is base my own truth off my own experience. And veganism has done nothing but help me progress in various aspects of my life.

"Scientists" say I should suffer from:

Anemia
Hair loss
Low sex drive
Indifference
Bad Skin
Inefficient muscle mass
Bad eye sight
Brain shrinkage (although a new one, it seems)
Depression
Anxiety
Low sperm count
Low red blood cell count
Irregularly low blood pressure/ volume
Etc... The list goes on.

When I had first adopted the lifestyle, I was genuinely freaked out about this whole thing. And I said "to hell with them" and decided to conduct a little experiment for myself. After two weeks, I didn't feel too well and thought about giving up. I stayed with it, and after a month I still felt under par. After two months and a cleanse, I felt like a new person.

I noticed:

Increased awareness
Agility
Memory
Endurance
Increased energy
Steady blood pressure
Maintained an active sex drive/life
Still felt very... "ALPHA"
Maintained 5% body fat as opposed to 10%+
Decreased mood swings
No hair loss
My gums looked better (Which was odd to me, I still can't explain it.)
Eyes were more vibrant
My breathe wasn't harsh, even after sleeping (I found this weird, also.)
Finger nails grew faster
Muscle definition was OUT OF CONTROL
and I feel much more positive without consciously pushing myself to be so.

Another awkward part of this whole transformation was after about a month of veganism, I decided to "cleanse" to pave the way for my new diet. After 14 days, I assimilated orange juice and cranberry to my diet before food. On the 15th day, I ran 4 miles straight at 8.5mph, with a minute warm up at 2-5mph. That really blew my mind. I'd never felt more electric than after not having food for 14 days.


The human body is an enigma, that after hundreds of years of modern medicine, still remains so. No one diet regimen is right for any one person. We all need to find what works for us and run with it. There is always room for improvement, whether it is science or compassion that gives you the push in that direction.

I believe the solution to most diet based aliments (which is a staggering number of ailments) is strict moderation.

Though it seems moderation is hard for most people to understand.




Edit: No more posting past 3 am. No more!

[edit on 15-9-2008 by DeadFlagBlues]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
reply to post by caitlinfae

 

I am one to believe that the studies are just that, studies and not fact. I am strictly a meat eater mostly. I rarely eat anything that doesn't have meat, and if I do, its usually like pizza or something with eggs or fish.

I never eat salads, I hate veggies, and I love my milk lol. I do eat fish though, and fish has next to EVERY vitamin your body needs except for about 3-4. I think that it would make sense that being a meat eater plays a role with intelligence. If you are a meat eater, you must be able to hunt. Therefore you need to be smarter than your prey.

That could be said for either side. That's why it is "kill or be killed" or "survival of the fittest." Herbivores like Gazelles have to acquire/adapt to their environment with keen senses to detect a coming ambush, where as lions have to be very stealthy in their approach to hunt the gazelle. The whole adaptation of a species vs. true intelligence is a whole other intricate can of worms anyway.