Hoodies, hats banned from shops

Here's a question

If you go into the mall and buy an item from a store are you allowed to wear it?

It's a mall and they sell hoodies, and hats but your not allowed to wear them????????

seems like a good reason not to purchase products from a store in that mall.

Wonder how much that will put a damper on sales.

Definately not going to stand up in a court of law if a muslim and non-muslin walk into the mall and only the non-muslim is told to expose themselves.

Originally posted by Sonya610
On the otherhand many would be offended by very short hair, and regular jeans and a confederate flag on a car. Just as "unconventional" yet to me it is a sign of safety, of not worrying that they will pull an unregistered firearm and start shooting the place up.

so you feel safer around confederate flags, than you do around kids wearing baggy clothes. I think we can see where you are coming from now.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Alright, alarmists, calm down, for the sake of your blood pressure.

You can't tell me you don't see the leap between hiding your identity in public so that you can't be identified for the crimes you've committed and the government monitoring your every movement, right?

Honestly, as if your analogies are even vaguely appropriate.

I think I've given nearly every one of your posts a star in this thread. I've not had to post my thoughts because they are virtually the same as yours. Keep it up mate.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Decent people don't know what good clothes are!
'Decent' people in this thread object to hoodies being worn by teens!

If you set standards, then accept the fact that beyond two standard deviations of your normalised population, that 5% of people will still dress however they like.

I am beginning to realize there is a cultural difference at play here. As stated where I live the style does not "imitate" thug life, as is the case in many other areas. Here the style IS thug life, they invented it! Plus climate plays a part, here at least half the year it is simply TOO HOT to wear that sort of attire, baggy pants and shirts (great for hiding illegal weapons) are common but hoods generally not, except of course on surveillance crime videos.

Originally posted by Sonya610
I am beginning to realize there is a cultural difference at play here.

Indeed, and that cultural difference appears to be under a veil of thinly disguised racism. We went from hoodies representing criminal youth, and now your perspective, as it has been unfolding puts another color on the canvas. Or rather, removes a color from it.

P.S. your youtube video proves nothing, as I can post just as many (if not more) videos of other races committing the same acts of violence. Again, I am by no means naive enough to think I can root out any sort of ingrained racism you grew up with, however I do believe that my discourse with you has opened up a few different views for other people that aren't so jaded.

P.P.S. Ironically, I didn't see many people wearing hoods in that video

[edit on 6-9-2008 by scientist]

Temperature means nothing... I have one pair of shorts, so chances are whatever the temperature is I will be wearing my 'baggy jeans'. It is only one step away to then wear a hoodie.

People feel heat differently, my father feels cold and puts on a t-shirt, shirt and jumper whilst the rest of the family are wearing t-shirts and are still hot. What you think is too hot is not too hot for someone else.


I wear a hoodie to town, and I don't want to carry it about in my arms, so I will wear it even if it does start to become hot...

Originally posted by scientistP.P.S. Ironically, I didn't see many people wearing hoods in that video

My point was I see now there are climate and cultural differences at play here.

As I said, in warm southern climates hoods are NOT as common for most of the year. Its too hot! People do not know what heat is until they have been a very very HUMID 95 degrees! Those that say "well I like warm so I would still wear one" have NO CLUE. The heat and humidity causes people to sweat profusely, as in sweat runs down your face and stains your chest in minutes.

Yes, the video shows LOTS of baggy pants and shirts, but NO hoodies. Unless its winter seeing someone in a hood is very very suspicious most of the year!

[edit on 6-9-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Sonya610


I don't like to make assumptions, so I will ask you directly:

- during the colder months, do you suspect people wearing hoodies and baggy clothes as being more criminally inclined as opposed to people wearing sweathshirts, bomber jackets, trenchcoats, etc. ?

- during the hotter months, do you suspect the same of people that wear baggier clothes - like a hat, large white shirt, and oversized shorts, as opposed to tighter fitting clothes?

- Are you of the opinion that these hoodies and baggy white shirts are the same people, just different seasons?

and finally,

- Do you see a difference between prejudging people based on the style of clothes they wear, and prejudging people based on the color of skin they have?

Again, we are not talking about social status here (or perhaps you are). I think it's very easy to evaluate someone's social status based on their clothing, but to judge their character - which is to say whether or not they would cause unjust harm to you, or be mean in any way - to judge that based on the clothes someone is wearing, is no different than judging them based on their skin color. At least, that's my humble opinion on the matter. Now I'd like to hear yours.

To maintain focus on the OP topic, I am now offering the theory that intimidation which comes from fashion trends, is simply a symptom of a deeper, perhaps unconscious form of racism, ageism, classism or a combination of the three. As for my evidence, I offer the comments that have transpired in this very thread.

Please discuss.

[edit on 6-9-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by scientist

- during the colder months, do you suspect people wearing hoodies and baggy clothes as being more criminally inclined as opposed to people wearing sweathshirts, bomber jackets, trenchcoats, etc. ?

During the winter months, when it is 30 degrees out, I do not think such attire (in and of itself) looks suspicious.

Originally posted by scientist
Do you see a difference between prejudging people based on the style of clothes they wear, and prejudging people based on the color of skin they have?

Of course. People choose to adorn themselves in various ways, they do not choose their race. In places where crime and paranoia run high, people are very aware how others choose to present themselves. It is a very basic survival instinct, to observe and gauge the level of risk.

Originally posted by scientist
Again, we are not talking about social status here (or perhaps you are). I think it's very easy to evaluate someone's social status based on their clothing, but to judge their character - which is to say whether or not they would cause unjust harm to you, or be mean in any way - to judge that based on the clothes someone is wearing, is no different than judging them based on their skin color. At least, that's my humble opinion on the matter. Now I'd like to hear yours.

I get the feeling you are trying to “out” me in some way. No need. If you are alluding to the fact that I sound like a racist, yes I am. I am aware of crime statistics, I know that 51% of the murders in the u.s. are perpetrated by a specific ethnicity. And yes, that does factor into it.

If I am standing in line at a convenience store at 10 pm on a Friday night and the person standing behind me is wearing baggy clothes with the hood pulled up and their head is down, I am going to be aware of the racial differences. If the person is a small asian guy or some skinny pimply faced 15 year old white boy I am going to be a LOT more at ease because I realize that the statistical likelihood of them robbing the place and in the process putting everyone in the store at risk of death or serious bodily injury is fairly low. Is it racist? Yup. Is it based on facts and statistical probability? Yup. Am I going to apologize for thinking that way? Nope.

I live in south tweed, where tweed city is located. The reason why it happened was because my group friends and a local gang called DNS (a.k.a Tweed Coast Crips) got into a fight in the middle of the center after one of them ran up and king hit my older brother, thinking he was someone else.
I think its a good thing, so many idiots go in there causing trouble and starting fights. Trust me, if you saw it you'd be shocked.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


You have just proven that it is YOU who is not grasping the problem.

I don't know where you live, but I live in Iowa and we have rain and winter here. EVERYBODY wears hoodies here, young and old.
If you are going to ban hoodies then coats, rain jackets, hats, gloves, and scarves should also be banned. For some people hoodies are a necessity and not a fashion. Though, it shouldn't matter if its necessity or not. If you live in Southern California you should be able to wear a hoodie...in America it's "innocent until proven guilty" and several Americans seem to agree with your reasoning, proving their ignorance. Treating an entire age group as criminals because they wear a hooded sweatshirt is wrong and entirely un-American. The hoodie in this situation is a scapegoat for the failure of the adults parenting, and now they are mad because they must deal with it. You can't keep blaming others there comes a time when you must take responsibility for the problems you have created.

Since adults like to believe that the youth must all be grouped together, I say it is time to group the adults together. Youths should hold the adults responsible for the current social and environmental issues that they have now passed on to my generation. Adults should be forced into community service to help clean up the mess they have made over the years, and most should be forced into therapy to figure out what causes their hate towards people who are different than them. Quit passing the buck and take responsibility. Thanks for giving us this #ed up world! We owe you nothing, you owe us much. Almost everyday I hear old people (who have usually just cut in line) complain about how young people just don't have respect for them. Respect for what? Hey, thanks for cutting in line oh and thanks for passing on racist attitudes to a new generation oh and we didn't want clean air and water anyway so thanks for destroying the ozone, forests, and water supply for us! Respect is earned not given, quit bitching and start acting. I would have so much respect for an adult who took responsibility for the problems of today and tried to make a difference, instead of passing the blame and making the target something smaller such as teens wearing hoodies, so they can live their little "Stepford" perfect lives and pretend like nothing is wrong.

The real problem here is that we allow people to control every aspect of our life, now apparently including what we wear. People like you fail to research or reason and fall into their "scare tactics" and we lose rights. I'm tired of people like you. Remember "deny ignorance?"

You are clueless!




[edit on 7-9-2008 by blahblah123]

[edit on 7-9-2008 by blahblah123]

reply to post by Sonya610


According to the reasoning in this article, maybe convenience stores should be closed at 9pm and before that only people wearing a suit and tie should be allowed in.

reply to post by Corum

Thanks very much, I do my best!

Originally posted by blahblah123
You have just proven that it is YOU who is not grasping the problem.

I think I'll be able to show you that it's actually you who have taken this way out of context and I still believe you are arguing a fallacious point.

Originally posted by blahblah123
I don't know where you live, but I live in Iowa and we have rain and winter here. EVERYBODY wears hoodies here, young and old.

I live in England. There's nothing you can teach me about rain that I don't already know.

Originally posted by blahblah123If you are going to ban hoodies then coats, rain jackets, hats, gloves, and scarves should also be banned. For some people hoodies are a necessity and not a fashion.

Why? Why do you feel the need to blow up every small issue and feel the need to make it a blanket judgement on everything? Are rain jackets, coats or gloves obscuring the face from security cameras?

You do not need to make every single thing a blanket statement for the whole of society.

I quote from the article:

Centre management said the trial ban on headwear was prompted by friction between security guards and local youths.

Management and police say some troublemakers know the location of security cameras and hide their heads from them.

"It's exactly the same as banks put a picture of a motorcycle helmet with a line through it on their front door. You just take your helmet off when you walk in there."

He said the trial was "due to the hood covering the face and those people causing fear to the shoppers within the complex, and the inability of CCTV (cameras) to identify".

Originally posted by blahblah123Though, it shouldn't matter if its necessity or not. If you live in Southern California you should be able to wear a hoodie...in America it's "innocent until proven guilty"

I don't care, and neither does the Australian shopping centre where this happened. They know the trouble-makers, implying they have done this before and are therefore not innocent.

This "shouldn't matter" talk is utterly redunant too, because evidently it does matter, and your fairytale utopia is just that; a fairytale. People are not all like you and they do not hold your values, this is something you will have to accept.

Originally posted by blahblah123and several Americans seem to agree with your reasoning, proving their ignorance. Treating an entire age group as criminals because they wear a hooded sweatshirt is wrong and entirely un-American.

Good. I like being entirely un-American. Your washed-out patriotic call is wasted, I'm afraid. I'll just reiterate this is an Australian article too.

It seems to me that you simply think anyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, despite the fact you have set up a strawman argument (one which assumes a false position of the opponent then proceeds to destroy that, rather than the actual issue) and then proceeded to fail to debunk it.

I suggest you read the article again to see exactly why this one shopping centre is looking to stop people from dressing like balaclava-clad muggers and hiding from the CCTV cameras installed there specifically so that these people can be identified after they have committed a crime on their premises.

You can walk right up to the front door swaddled in hoodies and face scarves all you like. All they are asking is if you wish to come in, you must remove them. How is that a bad thing?

Originally posted by blahblah123The hoodie in this situation is a scapegoat for the failure of the adults parenting, and now they are mad because they must deal with it. You can't keep blaming others there comes a time when you must take responsibility for the problems you have created.

...What? How is that the shopping centre's fault? They don't have legal responsibility for the hellions that are obviously causing so much trouble they have to enforce a measure like this in their private property.

I completely agree, it is a faliure of the parents and modern Western society in general, but the idea that you know and recognise this is the case and yet still wish to take no action about it baffles me. You can see these kids are a problem, and yet you don't want the authority figures to do anything about it. Unbelievable.

Yes, it'd be nice to go to the root but its too late for that. Now all you can do is damage control, and do your best to try and rectify this rot in the next generation of kids, but I imagine you'd be against that too.

Originally posted by blahblah123Since adults like to believe that the youth must all be grouped together, I say it is time to group the adults together. Youths should hold the adults responsible for the current social and environmental issues that they have now passed on to my generation.

Oh grow up. I'm in my late twenties and I have no kids. Rant all you like, but you're just waffling into the air.

Perhaps when kids have jobs, years of paying their way and a responsible world outlook, we'll consider listening to their opinions. Until then, we'll treat them as they are: a bunch of kids.

Originally posted by blahblah123Adults should be forced into community service to help clean up the mess they have made over the years, and most should be forced into therapy to figure out what causes their hate towards people who are different than them. Quit passing the buck and take responsibility. Thanks for giving us this #ed up world!

Again, grow up. As I said, we pay for everything. If you are a kid, you obviously pay for nothing. You don't contribute, you don't get a say. And as for ignorance: you think we created the world or do you think we inherited it like you did?

Best start pointing the finger inside because it's every persons responsibility to change the world, starting with themselves.

Originally posted by blahblah123We owe you nothing, you owe us much. Almost everyday I hear old people (who have usually just cut in line) complain about how young people just don't have respect for them. Respect for what?

Actually you owe us everything. If it wasn't for your parents, you'd have died from exposure as a baby, you'd have starved to death as a child and you'd have been beaten senseless by a group of feral young men for your girlfriend as a teenager. You can thank the adults around you for all of these things not happening, you ungrateful, stupid child.

And respect? Did you fight a world war? Did you have any notion of the hardships and suffering wraught by facist regimes and the bravery and strength of the "old people" you so callously deride? Obviously not. You're just a punk who thinks the world owes them something.

Originally posted by blahblah123The real problem here is that we allow people to control every aspect of our life, now apparently including what we wear.

And we circle back to the beginning; read the article. They just want you to take your hood down and your face-scarf off when in their private property.

Originally posted by blahblah123You are clueless!

Is there anyone else who agrees with this statement? Is there no logic and reason any more? Are all Americans as dense as this person? Or is it simply people below the age of 25? Was I ever this willfully ignorant of the way life is?

You certainly provoke many soul-searching questions, blahblah123.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


You are going on my ignore list.

You just don't make any sense anymore.

You show no respect to other members and you are repetitive to the point of annoyance.

I don't like to do this, but being 74 years of age - quite frankly, I do not have time for your nonsense.

The thread is also considerably shorter and far more concise. The quality of the contributions truly stand out when viewed from this perspective.

You have no one to blame but yourself for the way people have been reacting to you. You show no respect, yet demand it from all...

Thus far your primary contributions have been scorn and derision - not facts or any intellectual commentary whatsoever.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by TruthTellist]

Originally posted by blahblah123
reply to post by C.C.Benjamin

 

We owe you nothing, you owe us much. Almost everyday I hear old people (who have usually just cut in line) complain about how young people just don't have respect for them. Respect for what?

All I need to say and will say is that no one owes you squat unless you do something to earn it. If you are asking for freebies of anything you better start looking someplace else.

I do not owe you anything; no one owes me anything aside from my employer for the hours I have worked this week. If you feel you are owed something it had better be for the same otherwise go out and earn your dues.


What are you asking about showing respect for? Maybe you should show it because without people older than yourself you would have no education, food, freedoms, and most likely life? I believe everyone should get respect up to a point and earn the rest. If you show that you deserve no respect then you get none. Maybe if you were to show a little you might receive some as well.

My suggestion is before you start asking for what is owed to you is that maybe you should do something to have a reason for someone to owe you something. Until then you are nothing more than a leech on society a burden on those around you.


Raist


[edit on 9/8/08 by Raist]

reply to post by TruthTellist


Are you joking? You can't see the sense in what I've written? Or have I said something you don't like to hear, but can't refute?

Oh, whoops, I've made a mistake here, you took the cowards way out by sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la!" by ignoring me.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Oh, whoops, I've made a mistake here, you took the cowards way out by sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la!" by ignoring me.

Similar to the cowards way in which the powers that be are trying to solve youth crime, by banning hoodies?

They're not listening to the problems of these youths either.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by tezzajw
Similar to the cowards way in which the powers that be are trying to solve youth crime, by banning hoodies?

They're not listening to the problems of these youths either.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by tezzajw]

I do hope you are being facetious when you say that.

If you read the article you are bleating about you'll notice they aren't banning anything, they are just requiring users of their shopping centre to put their hoods down and remove face scarfs and NOTHING ELSE, and they have given good reason for it.

Are you suggesting they should just do nothing to combat the problem of these youths covering their faces and committing crimes, knowing they'll get away with it because they can't be caught? Is it the fault of the shopping centre that these kids have abysmal parents?

I swear I don't know how you can wilfully look for some wild conspiracy to remove human rights when there really isn't one.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
they are just requiring users of their shopping centre to put their hoods down

Which results in the hoodies being banned. A hoodie without the hood, is no longer a hoodie.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
they are just requiring users of their shopping centre to put their hoods down

Which results in the hoodies being banned. A hoodie without the hood, is no longer a hoodie.

...so freaking what??

Did you not read the reasons they gave for having to take this action? You know you aren't allowed to wear motorcycle helmets in banks either - where is your personal crusade against logic regarding that?

They aren't "banned" as this implies, especially the way you put it, that all of Australia has decided that upon Australian soil, hoodie-wearers will be executed on sight.

Christ on a bike, just stop getting so riled about semantics. This is like you saying you don't want people wearing assless chaps in your front room. Its your right to say it, because you don't want people's bare arses on your sofa, but those assless-chap-wearing visitors will suddenly get up in arms about their right to bare their buttcheeks in your house!